And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
What I make of that is people who resort to blood and soil arguments to determine who has the "right" to a "homeland" are doing so because they are ahistorical zealots, trying to manipulate others into believing in something that never existed for their own political gain.
Land is only zero sum because you people made it so. Any sane person would look at this quagmire and GTFO.
IKR!!!
And that’s how the modern state of Israel was established - people who resorted to blood and soil arguments to determine that they had the "right" to a "homeland" that was already home to others. “You people”, indeed.
Ta-da! Thank you for your assistance!
Yes and look how well it's going! Good job!
Look, I think Israel has every right to exist. I think the atrocities of 10/7 justify quite a bit. I think most pro Palestinian westerners are the same kind of people who have BLM posters on their lawns... but don't know any Black people. They're armchair revolutionaries. No skin in the game.
I also think that can make those pro Palestinians quite dangerous in the same way that IRA fans from South Boston made the situation in Northern Ireland more dangerous.
I think most people, given the chance, would rather not raise their kids to fight in a holy war based on fuzzy interpretations of history that require a victor and a lot of scorched earth. But my thoughts are meaningless. I have no skin in the game, either.
I wish you guys all the best. I really think the best the rest of the world can offer is amnesty for people who don't want to play your bloody games
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
“At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years.“
Your entire previous post was about genetic ties and true indigenous people.
Which is it? Get your story straight.
I am a different poster from the one you think you're responding to.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly rejected a proposal from US Secretary of State Antony Blinken that would have seen Saudi Arabia normalize relations with Israel in exchange for Jerusalem agreeing to provide the Palestinians with a pathway toward statehood.
Netanyahu told Blinken during his visit to Israel last week that he wasn’t prepared to make a deal that allows for a Palestinian state, NBC News reports, citing three unnamed senior US officials.
Yes go sit in the corner Biden. Bibi just shut you down again!
If it's a Palestinian state run by Hamas or a similar org then Netanyahu is absolutely right. Seems to me his first priority is to shut down Hamas. After that, a more viable conversation might be had.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
Translation: Terrorism is justified.
Thank you.
Should any country in North or South America exist?
The times have changed so much since back then
We must return all of the Americans to the indigenous tribes.
And we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
Translation: Terrorism is justified.
Thank you.
It is self-defence to try to recover stolen property and to fight against ethnic cleansing and racist violence. Is what Israel is doing to children in Gaza terrorism or self-defense? How about what Israeli settlers are doing to Palestinians in the WB, which is just a continuation of the Nakba? Are you saying Palestinians must accept abuse, forced displacement, occasional massacres, and land theft without a murmur, while Israel can respond with deadly force when Palestinians react in kind? Which side is practicing terrorism? Which side is practicing self-defense?
Can you explain how your differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians are not based in racism?
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly rejected a proposal from US Secretary of State Antony Blinken that would have seen Saudi Arabia normalize relations with Israel in exchange for Jerusalem agreeing to provide the Palestinians with a pathway toward statehood.
Netanyahu told Blinken during his visit to Israel last week that he wasn’t prepared to make a deal that allows for a Palestinian state, NBC News reports, citing three unnamed senior US officials.
Yes go sit in the corner Biden. Bibi just shut you down again!
If it's a Palestinian state run by Hamas or a similar org then Netanyahu is absolutely right. Seems to me his first priority is to shut down Hamas. After that, a more viable conversation might be had.
Netanyahu and his Likud thugs are no better than Hamas. We in the West need to stop giving this jackbooted racist money and legitimacy.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
Translation: Terrorism is justified.
Thank you.
Should any country in North or South America exist?
The times have changed so much since back then
We must return all of the Americans to the indigenous tribes.
And we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
Translation: Terrorism is justified.
Thank you.
It is self-defence to try to recover stolen property and to fight against ethnic cleansing and racist violence. Is what Israel is doing to children in Gaza terrorism or self-defense? How about what Israeli settlers are doing to Palestinians in the WB, which is just a continuation of the Nakba? Are you saying Palestinians must accept abuse, forced displacement, occasional massacres, and land theft without a murmur, while Israel can respond with deadly force when Palestinians react in kind? Which side is practicing terrorism? Which side is practicing self-defense?
Can you explain how your differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians are not based in racism?
I don't have differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians.
I expect both to follow international law.
For Palestinians, that means honoring the UN's decision to create two separate states. Their failure to do so is the primary driver of the last 80 years of conflict.
For Israel, that means complying with the international adjudications re: territorial expansion, etc.
For both, it means compliance with international laws governing conflict, protection of civilians, etc.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly rejected a proposal from US Secretary of State Antony Blinken that would have seen Saudi Arabia normalize relations with Israel in exchange for Jerusalem agreeing to provide the Palestinians with a pathway toward statehood.
Netanyahu told Blinken during his visit to Israel last week that he wasn’t prepared to make a deal that allows for a Palestinian state, NBC News reports, citing three unnamed senior US officials.
Yes go sit in the corner Biden. Bibi just shut you down again!
If it's a Palestinian state run by Hamas or a similar org then Netanyahu is absolutely right. Seems to me his first priority is to shut down Hamas. After that, a more viable conversation might be had.
When Israel recognized the PA at Oslo,
Netanyahu’s settlers responded by attacking Mosques and assassinating Rabin. That’s your view of a “more viable conversation”?
And we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
Translation: Terrorism is justified.
Thank you.
It is self-defence to try to recover stolen property and to fight against ethnic cleansing and racist violence. Is what Israel is doing to children in Gaza terrorism or self-defense? How about what Israeli settlers are doing to Palestinians in the WB, which is just a continuation of the Nakba? Are you saying Palestinians must accept abuse, forced displacement, occasional massacres, and land theft without a murmur, while Israel can respond with deadly force when Palestinians react in kind? Which side is practicing terrorism? Which side is practicing self-defense?
Can you explain how your differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians are not based in racism?
I don't have differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians.
I expect both to follow international law.
For Palestinians, that means honoring the UN's decision to create two separate states. Their failure to do so is the primary driver of the last 80 years of conflict.
For Israel, that means complying with the international adjudications re: territorial expansion, etc.
For both, it means compliance with international laws governing conflict, protection of civilians, etc.
In theory, both sides are contravening international law, Israel with its genocide and human rights abuses, and Palestine by rejecting UN Resolution 181. The problem with 181 is that it was passed during an era when racism and colonialism were still widely accepted in the Western world. The grounds for making that decision would not hold water today. Remember, apartheid in South Africa swung into high gear in South Africa in 1948 with the election of the deeply racist National Party. Paradigms have completely flipped since 1948. Palestinians are correct not to accept a racist new order. It is deeply racist to suggest Israel can use violence to steal land, but Palestinians can't do the same to get it back.
And we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
Translation: Terrorism is justified.
Thank you.
It is self-defence to try to recover stolen property and to fight against ethnic cleansing and racist violence. Is what Israel is doing to children in Gaza terrorism or self-defense? How about what Israeli settlers are doing to Palestinians in the WB, which is just a continuation of the Nakba? Are you saying Palestinians must accept abuse, forced displacement, occasional massacres, and land theft without a murmur, while Israel can respond with deadly force when Palestinians react in kind? Which side is practicing terrorism? Which side is practicing self-defense?
Can you explain how your differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians are not based in racism?
I don't have differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians.
I expect both to follow international law.
For Palestinians, that means honoring the UN's decision to create two separate states. Their failure to do so is the primary driver of the last 80 years of conflict.
For Israel, that means complying with the international adjudications re: territorial expansion, etc.
For both, it means compliance with international laws governing conflict, protection of civilians, etc.
In theory, both sides are contravening international law, Israel with its genocide and human rights abuses, and Palestine by rejecting UN Resolution 181. The problem with 181 is that it was passed during an era when racism and colonialism were still widely accepted in the Western world. The grounds for making that decision would not hold water today. Remember, apartheid in South Africa swung into high gear in South Africa in 1948 with the election of the deeply racist National Party. Paradigms have completely flipped since 1948. Palestinians are correct not to accept a racist new order. It is deeply racist to suggest Israel can use violence to steal land, but Palestinians can't do the same to get it back.
So we're back to Israel shouldn't exist and terrorism is justified?
And, of course, by your logic we need to undo all international law and decisions made prior to ____________?
De-partition India and Pakistan? Redraw the maps of most of Asia, Africa, and the ME to account for current sensibilities?
In other words, you're effectively advocating for global civil war to undo the last 500 years of history.
And we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
Translation: Terrorism is justified.
Thank you.
It is self-defence to try to recover stolen property and to fight against ethnic cleansing and racist violence. Is what Israel is doing to children in Gaza terrorism or self-defense? How about what Israeli settlers are doing to Palestinians in the WB, which is just a continuation of the Nakba? Are you saying Palestinians must accept abuse, forced displacement, occasional massacres, and land theft without a murmur, while Israel can respond with deadly force when Palestinians react in kind? Which side is practicing terrorism? Which side is practicing self-defense?
Can you explain how your differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians are not based in racism?
I don't have differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians.
I expect both to follow international law.
For Palestinians, that means honoring the UN's decision to create two separate states. Their failure to do so is the primary driver of the last 80 years of conflict.
For Israel, that means complying with the international adjudications re: territorial expansion, etc.
For both, it means compliance with international laws governing conflict, protection of civilians, etc.
In theory, both sides are contravening international law, Israel with its genocide and human rights abuses, and Palestine by rejecting UN Resolution 181. The problem with 181 is that it was passed during an era when racism and colonialism were still widely accepted in the Western world. The grounds for making that decision would not hold water today. Remember, apartheid in South Africa swung into high gear in South Africa in 1948 with the election of the deeply racist National Party. Paradigms have completely flipped since 1948. Palestinians are correct not to accept a racist new order. It is deeply racist to suggest Israel can use violence to steal land, but Palestinians can't do the same to get it back.
So we're back to Israel shouldn't exist and terrorism is justified?
And, of course, by your logic we need to undo all international law and decisions made prior to ____________?
De-partition India and Pakistan? Redraw the maps of most of Asia, Africa, and the ME to account for current sensibilities?
In other words, you're effectively advocating for global civil war to undo the last 500 years of history.
Doesn't sound particularly moral or humane to me.
How do we account for the violence behind the spread of Islam or other things?
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
Translation: Terrorism is justified.
Thank you.
Should any country in North or South America exist?
The times have changed so much since back then
We must return all of the Americans to the indigenous tribes.
We should certainly compensate indigenous tribes.
Compensated?
Please describe how.
Should the Israelis “compensate” Palestine by taking it over and allowing Palestinians to operate casinos?
And we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
Translation: Terrorism is justified.
Thank you.
It is self-defence to try to recover stolen property and to fight against ethnic cleansing and racist violence. Is what Israel is doing to children in Gaza terrorism or self-defense? How about what Israeli settlers are doing to Palestinians in the WB, which is just a continuation of the Nakba? Are you saying Palestinians must accept abuse, forced displacement, occasional massacres, and land theft without a murmur, while Israel can respond with deadly force when Palestinians react in kind? Which side is practicing terrorism? Which side is practicing self-defense?
Can you explain how your differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians are not based in racism?
I don't have differing expectations of Israelis and Palestinians.
I expect both to follow international law.
For Palestinians, that means honoring the UN's decision to create two separate states. Their failure to do so is the primary driver of the last 80 years of conflict.
For Israel, that means complying with the international adjudications re: territorial expansion, etc.
For both, it means compliance with international laws governing conflict, protection of civilians, etc.
In theory, both sides are contravening international law, Israel with its genocide and human rights abuses, and Palestine by rejecting UN Resolution 181. The problem with 181 is that it was passed during an era when racism and colonialism were still widely accepted in the Western world. The grounds for making that decision would not hold water today. Remember, apartheid in South Africa swung into high gear in South Africa in 1948 with the election of the deeply racist National Party. Paradigms have completely flipped since 1948. Palestinians are correct not to accept a racist new order. It is deeply racist to suggest Israel can use violence to steal land, but Palestinians can't do the same to get it back.
So we're back to Israel shouldn't exist and terrorism is justified?
And, of course, by your logic we need to undo all international law and decisions made prior to ____________?
De-partition India and Pakistan? Redraw the maps of most of Asia, Africa, and the ME to account for current sensibilities?
In other words, you're effectively advocating for global civil war to undo the last 500 years of history.
Doesn't sound particularly moral or humane to me.
No, we're at Israel shouldn't exist in its current ethno-supremacist form and terrorism is not justified but is an inevitable and often counter-productive response to severe injustice.
No colonialist regime has ever in history been overthrown without terrorism. The IRA and ANC ceased to be terrorist organizations once a just solution was established. Hamas would not exist today if Israel hadn't literally massacred Palestinians, destroyed their villages, stolen their property, confined them to ghettos, and ethnically cleansed them -- for decades. It's disingenuous to describe Israeli violence as "self-defense" but Palestinian violence as "terrorism." Israel was founded in Zionist terrorism, and the expectation that Palestinians should lie back and enjoy their victimization is preposterous.
Israel should never have been created in the first place, and it urgently needs to evolve. South Africa did not stop existing when apartheid came to an end. Instead, it reinvented itself. Israel needs to do the same.
Forum Index
»
Political Discussion
![[Post New]](/jforum/templates/default/images/icon_minipost_new.gif){kind=icon}