Anonymous wrote:Everyone is in awe of the incredible network of sophisticated tunnels built by Hamas. Too bad we cannot convince them to use their talents for good. They seem like subterranean civil engineering experts. The IRA laid down their arms. Maybe Hamas can be convinced to embrace peace. Both sides will need to make significant concessions. It is the only way
The IRA laid down their arms in return for a country.
And citizens in the United States who were bothered by the U.Ks conduct during the Troubles weren’t treated like an inconvenience— the U.S actually had credibility remotely as “balanced” in that conflicted (which is to say to this day both sides think we were too nice to the other side).
Israel will not allow a Palestinian state without overwhelming pressure from the United States and the rest of the international community. And no one thinks the U.S. is balanced.
What. No. Israel has offered statehood to the Palestinians on multiple occasions and they refused.
Do you consider it a state if the IDF still has the ability to “carry out operations” inside a future Palestine? I.e continue to kill Palestinians with impunity?
Anonymous wrote:Per Israeli social security data, the final death toll from the 10/7/2023 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, bringing the total to 1,139 deaths.
695 / (695 + 373) = ~ 65% civilians
Per Mark Regev and other IDF spox, in multiple on-air media interviews over the past 60 days, 2/3 of the Palestinians killed since 10/7/2023 by the IDF have been Palestinian civilians. And those statements of confirmation have been disclosed in the context of celebrating the efficacy of the IDF. Therefore, we can be certain that they are either accurate or possibly understated (i.e., the civilian Palestinian death rate is either 2/3 or higher), as Israel would have zero incentive to understate the efficacy of its own military actions.
The conclusion that seems obvious is that the Hamas actions and the Israeli actions have been roughly the same, in terms of the rate at which civilians were killed. What stems from that conclusion is the shock in realizing that a supposedly first-world, world-class military in Israel, with unlimited bleeding-edge technology at its disposal, is no more efficient in its actions than a third-world militant group hiding in tunnels. Alternatively, the Israeli side is intentionally killing civilians.
Hamas volume of kills actually surprised them. They didn’t think the Israeli army would fold that fast.
There’s absolutely no way Hamas should’ve been able to kill 1,000 people on foot in 24 hours and taken so many hostage .
The IDF is no army. At best they are mall security with fighter jets.
Zero ground game.
Hamas knows this which is why they created tunnels to force them into a ground war.
If Hamas gets destroyed, it will be from the Palestinian people not Israel. Their army is killing civilians which unfortunately helps Hamas recruiting though
They weren't on foot, they had vehicles, motorcycles, Kalashnikov machine guns that fire 700 rounds per minute, rocket-propelled grenades and lots of other weaponry, and they were trained by former Russian special forces.
And what did the defending forces have- Tanks, artillery, aircraft, etc? Guess it was not a fair fight.
Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu reportedly rejected a proposal from US Secretary of State Antony Blinken that would have seen Saudi Arabia normalize relations with Israel in exchange for Jerusalem agreeing to provide the Palestinians with a pathway toward statehood.
Netanyahu told Blinken during his visit to Israel last week that he wasn’t prepared to make a deal that allows for a Palestinian state, NBC News reports, citing three unnamed senior US officials.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
The majority of the people stumbling around Israel today calling themselves “Jews” are not genetically linked at any relevant level with the wandering tribes you are desperately trying to associate with that region. And the Palestinians descend from those tribes, so bubkes on the shitty logic.
Anonymous wrote:Everyone is in awe of the incredible network of sophisticated tunnels built by Hamas. Too bad we cannot convince them to use their talents for good. They seem like subterranean civil engineering experts. The IRA laid down their arms. Maybe Hamas can be convinced to embrace peace. Both sides will need to make significant concessions. It is the only way
The IRA laid down their arms in return for a country.
And citizens in the United States who were bothered by the U.Ks conduct during the Troubles weren’t treated like an inconvenience— the U.S actually had credibility remotely as “balanced” in that conflicted (which is to say to this day both sides think we were too nice to the other side).
Israel will not allow a Palestinian state without overwhelming pressure from the United States and the rest of the international community. And no one thinks the U.S. is balanced.
What. No. Israel has offered statehood to the Palestinians on multiple occasions and they refused.
How magnanimous!
Here, Palestinians - here’s a tiny non-contiguous portion of the property that was taken from you to give to us, which we expanded by “defending” ourselves, and you can “have” it but we get to control your borders and airspace, we get to dictate whether you have a military and other essential governmental institutions, we get to come and go as we please for any reason or no reason at all, and we otherwise get retain full control over you and most aspects of your lives forever.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
What I make of that is people who resort to blood and soil arguments to determine who has the "right" to a "homeland" are doing so because they are ahistorical zealots, trying to manipulate others into believing in something that never existed for their own political gain.
Land is only zero sum because you people made it so. Any sane person would look at this quagmire and GTFO.
IKR!!!
And that’s how the modern state of Israel was established - people who resorted to blood and soil arguments to determine that they had the "right" to a "homeland" that was already home to others. “You people”, indeed.
Anonymous wrote:Per Israeli social security data, the final death toll from the 10/7/2023 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, bringing the total to 1,139 deaths.
695 / (695 + 373) = ~ 65% civilians
Per Mark Regev and other IDF spox, in multiple on-air media interviews over the past 60 days, 2/3 of the Palestinians killed since 10/7/2023 by the IDF have been Palestinian civilians. And those statements of confirmation have been disclosed in the context of celebrating the efficacy of the IDF. Therefore, we can be certain that they are either accurate or possibly understated (i.e., the civilian Palestinian death rate is either 2/3 or higher), as Israel would have zero incentive to understate the efficacy of its own military actions.
The conclusion that seems obvious is that the Hamas actions and the Israeli actions have been roughly the same, in terms of the rate at which civilians were killed. What stems from that conclusion is the shock in realizing that a supposedly first-world, world-class military in Israel, with unlimited bleeding-edge technology at its disposal, is no more efficient in its actions than a third-world militant group hiding in tunnels. Alternatively, the Israeli side is intentionally killing civilians.
Hamas volume of kills actually surprised them. They didn’t think the Israeli army would fold that fast.
There’s absolutely no way Hamas should’ve been able to kill 1,000 people on foot in 24 hours and taken so many hostage .
The IDF is no army. At best they are mall security with fighter jets.
Zero ground game.
Hamas knows this which is why they created tunnels to force them into a ground war.
If Hamas gets destroyed, it will be from the Palestinian people not Israel. Their army is killing civilians which unfortunately helps Hamas recruiting though
They weren't on foot, they had vehicles, motorcycles, Kalashnikov machine guns that fire 700 rounds per minute, rocket-propelled grenades and lots of other weaponry, and they were trained by former Russian special forces.
And what did the defending forces have- Tanks, artillery, aircraft, etc? Guess it was not a fair fight.
They also had advance warning from multiple intelligence sources that the attacks were being planned for months. And yet they were seemingly caught flat footed, but were they?
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Anonymous wrote:Per Israeli social security data, the final death toll from the 10/7/2023 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, bringing the total to 1,139 deaths.
695 / (695 + 373) = ~ 65% civilians
Per Mark Regev and other IDF spox, in multiple on-air media interviews over the past 60 days, 2/3 of the Palestinians killed since 10/7/2023 by the IDF have been Palestinian civilians. And those statements of confirmation have been disclosed in the context of celebrating the efficacy of the IDF. Therefore, we can be certain that they are either accurate or possibly understated (i.e., the civilian Palestinian death rate is either 2/3 or higher), as Israel would have zero incentive to understate the efficacy of its own military actions.
The conclusion that seems obvious is that the Hamas actions and the Israeli actions have been roughly the same, in terms of the rate at which civilians were killed. What stems from that conclusion is the shock in realizing that a supposedly first-world, world-class military in Israel, with unlimited bleeding-edge technology at its disposal, is no more efficient in its actions than a third-world militant group hiding in tunnels. Alternatively, the Israeli side is intentionally killing civilians.
Hamas volume of kills actually surprised them. They didn’t think the Israeli army would fold that fast.
There’s absolutely no way Hamas should’ve been able to kill 1,000 people on foot in 24 hours and taken so many hostage .
The IDF is no army. At best they are mall security with fighter jets.
Zero ground game.
Hamas knows this which is why they created tunnels to force them into a ground war.
If Hamas gets destroyed, it will be from the Palestinian people not Israel. Their army is killing civilians which unfortunately helps Hamas recruiting though
They weren't on foot, they had vehicles, motorcycles, Kalashnikov machine guns that fire 700 rounds per minute, rocket-propelled grenades and lots of other weaponry, and they were trained by former Russian special forces.
And what did the defending forces have- Tanks, artillery, aircraft, etc? Guess it was not a fair fight.
They also had advance warning from multiple intelligence sources that the attacks were being planned for months. And yet they were seemingly caught flat footed, but were they?
Translation: Hamas not responsible for 10/7. Jewish conspiracy.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
“At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years.“
Your entire previous post was about genetic ties and true indigenous people.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
The majority of the people stumbling around Israel today calling themselves “Jews” are not genetically linked at any relevant level with the wandering tribes you are desperately trying to associate with that region. And the Palestinians descend from those tribes, so bubkes on the shitty logic.
The Palestinians descended from those tribes, so did the Jews. Truth hurts.
Anonymous wrote:Everyone is in awe of the incredible network of sophisticated tunnels built by Hamas. Too bad we cannot convince them to use their talents for good. They seem like subterranean civil engineering experts. The IRA laid down their arms. Maybe Hamas can be convinced to embrace peace. Both sides will need to make significant concessions. It is the only way
The IRA extremists didn’t have the benefit of eternal glory and paradise for killing their opponents. There isn’t the same incentive for Hamas to lay down arms when a very significant percentage of people believe that murdering infidels will bring them glory in the afterlife. This is very valuable asset for leaders to know they have a steady supply of combatants who are eager to commit suicidal terror attacks that they can manipulate for their own political agendas.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
Good Point. Clarification: you're just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv (or descended from a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv) making a false claim ...
Thanks for clarifying. So the pasty stooges born in Israel in the last 75 years are not indigenous to Israel or indigenous Israel?
Not interested in playing cat-and-mouse. The majority of non-Arab Israelis have no meaningful genetic tie to the region they now occupy. Nearly all Palestinians have a complete or near-complete genetic tie to the region. Make of that what you will.
I assume that you are Native American and posting from the US, given your focus on genetics.
PS: the Jews were there first. Arab Jews exist.
These claims to have "been there first" are absurd and extraordinarily racist. At what point do you want to stop the clock of history and claim a particular group is the "true" indigenous people? People have lived in the region for tens of thousands of years. Jews could not have "been there first" because Judaism began long, long after people already lived there. Just because Jews lived there once does not mean they have sole claim to the area. If we use that logic of land ownership, we're in for a mess of wars and ethnic cleansing.
Meanwhile, Palestinians lived happily and comfortably in Haifa, in Deir Yassin, in Saliha, in Lydda, in Tantura, etc., for centuries before Zionist terrorists massacred them, ethnically cleansed them, drove them out to become refugees, and either destroyed their villages or stole their homes, along with their books, their furniture, and their bank accounts.
Zionism is an extraordinarily racist, selfish, and brutal movement that is inherently genocidal. It privileges one ethnic group above another in the way Nazism privileged so-called Aryans over Jews. Please don't try to justify it.
Translation: Israel shouldn't exist.
Palestinians were justified in trying to destroy it (in contravention of international law).
Thank you.
Of course Israel shouldn't exist, and of course Palestinians were (and are) justified in trying to get their land back -- it was stolen from them, along with their lives, their livelihoods, their homes, their money, and their possessions. I don't know why (unless one is extremely racist) this is even controversial. If some squatters kill a few dozen of your neighbor, kick you out of your home and move in, clear your bank accounts for you, and drive you out to live in poverty in a neighboring state that doesn't really want to take in refugees, wouldn't you feel just a tad hard done by? And would the squatters really have the right to complain if you drummed up a group of friends and tried to drive them out and recover your house and possessions? Are you really saying Israel may steal Palestinian land, and Palestinians simply have to lie back and take it? Because that would be an extraordinarily racist assumption! If you support Israel's right to ethnically cleanse inconvenient people, why would you not support the right of Palestinians to do the same?
The world is a radically different place compared to what it was in 1948. Colonialism, racism, and ethnic cleansing are frowned upon now. There is a massive paradigm shift underway in how Zionism is viewed.
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