Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.
She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?
Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.
This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!
Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?
Bahrain. Iran (MP).
Exactly one Jewish ambassador from 21 Arab states with appointment that ended in 2018. No one since or probably ever. Iran’s Jews are literal hostages .
Irans Jews aren’t hostages. Israel has offered to pay for their Aliyah and can rescue them if they took a 1 hour flight to say Kuwait or Dubai and they refuse. They say they are fine in Iran.
Older people are usually set in their fines. They aren’t any more hostage than older Jews who still live in rwually anti Semitic Russia or Poland or Egypt
Anonymous wrote:Per Israeli social security data, the final death toll from the 10/7/2023 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, bringing the total to 1,139 deaths.
695 / (695 + 373) = ~ 65% civilians
Per Mark Regev and other IDF spox, in multiple on-air media interviews over the past 60 days, 2/3 of the Palestinians killed since 10/7/2023 by the IDF have been Palestinian civilians. And those statements of confirmation have been disclosed in the context of celebrating the efficacy of the IDF. Therefore, we can be certain that they are either accurate or possibly understated (i.e., the civilian Palestinian death rate is either 2/3 or higher), as Israel would have zero incentive to understate the efficacy of its own military actions.
The conclusion that seems obvious is that the Hamas actions and the Israeli actions have been roughly the same, in terms of the rate at which civilians were killed. What stems from that conclusion is the shock in realizing that a supposedly first-world, world-class military in Israel, with unlimited bleeding-edge technology at its disposal, is no more efficient in its actions than a third-world militant group hiding in tunnels. Alternatively, the Israeli side is intentionally killing civilians.
Hamas volume of kills actually surprised them. They didn’t think the Israeli army would fold that fast.
There’s absolutely no way Hamas should’ve been able to kill 1,000 people on foot in 24 hours and taken so many hostage .
The IDF is no army. At best they are mall security with fighter jets.
Zero ground game.
Hamas knows this which is why they created tunnels to force them into a ground war.
If Hamas gets destroyed, it will be from the Palestinian people not Israel. Their army is killing civilians which unfortunately helps Hamas recruiting though
Everyone is in awe of the incredible network of sophisticated tunnels built by Hamas. Too bad we cannot convince them to use their talents for good. They seem like subterranean civil engineering experts. The IRA laid down their arms. Maybe Hamas can be convinced to embrace peace. Both sides will need to make significant concessions. It is the only way
Anonymous wrote:Per Israeli social security data, the final death toll from the 10/7/2023 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, bringing the total to 1,139 deaths.
695 / (695 + 373) = ~ 65% civilians
Per Mark Regev and other IDF spox, in multiple on-air media interviews over the past 60 days, 2/3 of the Palestinians killed since 10/7/2023 by the IDF have been Palestinian civilians. And those statements of confirmation have been disclosed in the context of celebrating the efficacy of the IDF. Therefore, we can be certain that they are either accurate or possibly understated (i.e., the civilian Palestinian death rate is either 2/3 or higher), as Israel would have zero incentive to understate the efficacy of its own military actions.
The conclusion that seems obvious is that the Hamas actions and the Israeli actions have been roughly the same, in terms of the rate at which civilians were killed. What stems from that conclusion is the shock in realizing that a supposedly first-world, world-class military in Israel, with unlimited bleeding-edge technology at its disposal, is no more efficient in its actions than a third-world militant group hiding in tunnels. Alternatively, the Israeli side is intentionally killing civilians.
Hamas volume of kills actually surprised them. They didn’t think the Israeli army would fold that fast.
There’s absolutely no way Hamas should’ve been able to kill 1,000 people on foot in 24 hours and taken so many hostage .
The IDF is no army. At best they are mall security with fighter jets.
Zero ground game.
Hamas knows this which is why they created tunnels to force them into a ground war.
If Hamas gets destroyed, it will be from the Palestinian people not Israel. Their army is killing civilians which unfortunately helps Hamas recruiting though
Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.
She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?
Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.
This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!
Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?
Bahrain. Iran (MP).
Exactly one Jewish ambassador from 21 Arab states with appointment that ended in 2018. No one since or probably ever. Iran’s Jews are literal hostages .
Irans Jews aren’t hostages. Israel has offered to pay for their Aliyah and can rescue them if they took a 1 hour flight to say Kuwait or Dubai and they refuse. They say they are fine in Iran.
Older people are usually set in their fines. They aren’t any more hostage than older Jews who still live in rwually anti Semitic Russia or Poland or Egypt
In their often shambolic and occasionally hysterical appearance before the International Court of Justice last Friday, at no point did the lawyers representing Israel give concrete arguments or convincing evidence that Israel’s three-month siege of Gaza should not be considered an act of genocide. Faced with a credible accusation of a crime one of their own called the “epitome and zenith of evil,” “the crime of crimes,” “the ultimate in wickedness,” they produced no proof they were not guilty.
Though they trumpeted the aid Israel is allegedly allowing into Gaza, Israel’s lawyers could not answer how it came to be that more than a million Palestinians will soon face outright famine. The Israel Defense Forces have to confront Hamas wherever they find its fighters, the lawyers insisted. But that cannot explain why a full 45 percent of Gaza’s housing stock is now a gray ruin or why entire city blocks are dynamited long after the area is cleared of the enemy; why indeed some of the oldest churches and mosques in the world are now husks. Proclaiming the high moral goal of rescuing hostages and insisting at every turn that the IDF obeys the rules of war, the lawyers gave no account for why Israeli soldiers felt able and entitled to shoot their own on sight: three men, shirtless, speaking Hebrew, waving a white flag. The leaflet drops, the text messages, the voicemails: This strategy of forewarning Gaza’s civilians was held up as an example of the army’s duty to international law, though no rebuttal was offered for why unguided “dumb” bombs are dropped on the very towns and villages and camps Palestinians were told were safe from strike—the same places those leaflets informed them would guarantee their lives.
Instead, Israel’s lawyers and agents complained. The charge of genocide brought by South Africa in The Hague was “a libel” designed to “delegitimize” the Israeli state and society. South Africa, which gave its submission to the court on Thursday, was seeking to “weaponize” the Genocide Convention in a “concerted and cynical attempt to pervert” the law’s true purpose. The lawyers, each in their turn, performed the usual acts of contrition and hand-wringing for the victims of so-called collateral damage: the “tragic … heartbreaking … terrible” civilian death toll that it attributed not to the designs and intent of the military but to the “harsh realities” of urban combat.
Israel is so lucky this has not been covered in the media here. Guess it is just a coincidence!
They are "THE BEST!" military in the world, they say.
We all know that the U.S. provides them with the latest and greatest weaponry.
But the facts have repeatedly shown that they can't hit the broad side of a barn.
What should we believe? What they say, or what they do?
The interesting thing is that they showed us in their attack in Beirut that took out a hamas leader + maybe 2/3 others? that they may very well have the capability to be precise in their targeting. Which makes me wonder about the whole we aren't trying to commit genocide narrative.
Yes. This resonates with me. Is there any reason that IDF supporters can share that explains this dichotomy?
Anonymous wrote:Everyone is in awe of the incredible network of sophisticated tunnels built by Hamas. Too bad we cannot convince them to use their talents for good. They seem like subterranean civil engineering experts. The IRA laid down their arms. Maybe Hamas can be convinced to embrace peace. Both sides will need to make significant concessions. It is the only way
We hear the IdF talk about tunnels but have seen no proof. The IDF is blowing up blocks of cleared buildings not tunnels. It’s just scorched earth.
In their often shambolic and occasionally hysterical appearance before the International Court of Justice last Friday, at no point did the lawyers representing Israel give concrete arguments or convincing evidence that Israel’s three-month siege of Gaza should not be considered an act of genocide. Faced with a credible accusation of a crime one of their own called the “epitome and zenith of evil,” “the crime of crimes,” “the ultimate in wickedness,” they produced no proof they were not guilty.
Though they trumpeted the aid Israel is allegedly allowing into Gaza, Israel’s lawyers could not answer how it came to be that more than a million Palestinians will soon face outright famine. The Israel Defense Forces have to confront Hamas wherever they find its fighters, the lawyers insisted. But that cannot explain why a full 45 percent of Gaza’s housing stock is now a gray ruin or why entire city blocks are dynamited long after the area is cleared of the enemy; why indeed some of the oldest churches and mosques in the world are now husks. Proclaiming the high moral goal of rescuing hostages and insisting at every turn that the IDF obeys the rules of war, the lawyers gave no account for why Israeli soldiers felt able and entitled to shoot their own on sight: three men, shirtless, speaking Hebrew, waving a white flag. The leaflet drops, the text messages, the voicemails: This strategy of forewarning Gaza’s civilians was held up as an example of the army’s duty to international law, though no rebuttal was offered for why unguided “dumb” bombs are dropped on the very towns and villages and camps Palestinians were told were safe from strike—the same places those leaflets informed them would guarantee their lives.
Instead, Israel’s lawyers and agents complained. The charge of genocide brought by South Africa in The Hague was “a libel” designed to “delegitimize” the Israeli state and society. South Africa, which gave its submission to the court on Thursday, was seeking to “weaponize” the Genocide Convention in a “concerted and cynical attempt to pervert” the law’s true purpose. The lawyers, each in their turn, performed the usual acts of contrition and hand-wringing for the victims of so-called collateral damage: the “tragic … heartbreaking … terrible” civilian death toll that it attributed not to the designs and intent of the military but to the “harsh realities” of urban combat.
Israel is so lucky this has not been covered in the media here. Guess it is just a coincidence!
They are "THE BEST!" military in the world, they say.
We all know that the U.S. provides them with the latest and greatest weaponry.
But the facts have repeatedly shown that they can't hit the broad side of a barn.
What should we believe? What they say, or what they do?
The interesting thing is that they showed us in their attack in Beirut that took out a hamas leader + maybe 2/3 others? that they may very well have the capability to be precise in their targeting. Which makes me wonder about the whole we aren't trying to commit genocide narrative.
That was the US. The Israelis would destroy 1/2 of Beirut and the guy would still be alive,
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Anonymous wrote:Everyone is in awe of the incredible network of sophisticated tunnels built by Hamas. Too bad we cannot convince them to use their talents for good. They seem like subterranean civil engineering experts. The IRA laid down their arms. Maybe Hamas can be convinced to embrace peace. Both sides will need to make significant concessions. It is the only way
We hear the IdF talk about tunnels but have seen no proof. The IDF is blowing up blocks of cleared buildings not tunnels. It’s just scorched earth.
Anonymous wrote:Per Israeli social security data, the final death toll from the 10/7/2023 attack is now thought to be 695 Israeli civilians, including 36 children, as well as 373 security forces and 71 foreigners, bringing the total to 1,139 deaths.
695 / (695 + 373) = ~ 65% civilians
Per Mark Regev and other IDF spox, in multiple on-air media interviews over the past 60 days, 2/3 of the Palestinians killed since 10/7/2023 by the IDF have been Palestinian civilians. And those statements of confirmation have been disclosed in the context of celebrating the efficacy of the IDF. Therefore, we can be certain that they are either accurate or possibly understated (i.e., the civilian Palestinian death rate is either 2/3 or higher), as Israel would have zero incentive to understate the efficacy of its own military actions.
The conclusion that seems obvious is that the Hamas actions and the Israeli actions have been roughly the same, in terms of the rate at which civilians were killed. What stems from that conclusion is the shock in realizing that a supposedly first-world, world-class military in Israel, with unlimited bleeding-edge technology at its disposal, is no more efficient in its actions than a third-world militant group hiding in tunnels. Alternatively, the Israeli side is intentionally killing civilians.
Hamas volume of kills actually surprised them. They didn’t think the Israeli army would fold that fast.
There’s absolutely no way Hamas should’ve been able to kill 1,000 people on foot in 24 hours and taken so many hostage .
The IDF is no army. At best they are mall security with fighter jets.
Zero ground game.
Hamas knows this which is why they created tunnels to force them into a ground war.
If Hamas gets destroyed, it will be from the Palestinian people not Israel. Their army is killing civilians which unfortunately helps Hamas recruiting though
One wonders what the kill volume would be if IDF didn't get involved with their trigger happy tanks and choppers firing into houses and cars.
Anonymous wrote:Everyone is in awe of the incredible network of sophisticated tunnels built by Hamas. Too bad we cannot convince them to use their talents for good. They seem like subterranean civil engineering experts. The IRA laid down their arms. Maybe Hamas can be convinced to embrace peace. Both sides will need to make significant concessions. It is the only way
We hear the IdF talk about tunnels but have seen no proof. The IDF is blowing up blocks of cleared buildings not tunnels. It’s just scorched earth.
And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......
No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.
Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?
Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.
DP
My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.
There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.
Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.
But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.
Very fine people at the protest, right?
You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.
What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.
It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.
It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.
Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.
What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?
The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.
The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?
That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.
If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.
That’s worth it to you?
There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.
Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.
Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.
Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.
DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.
You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.
DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.
Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.
It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.
If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.
Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.
*** crickets *** incoming ...
DP.
Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.
Don't be foolish.
So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?
Yup.
Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?
They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.
The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….
I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.
It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.
Yes, one can trace Jewish genetics to the Middle East. But those same genes are shared by Palestinians. So how is the Jewish claim to the “holy land” stronger than the Palestinian claim?
You may be the poster who thinks the Jews were living peacefully and the “Arab invaders” descended? But this is not what science proves.
The science shows that the caanites were living in tbe regions and both Jews and Palestinians were descended from the Caanites. Given the timeline of the religions, some first became Jewish, some splintered off and became Christian, and then others splintered off and became Muslim. They are all related. iDF is literally killing their genetic cousins.
If you’re a non-Arab Israeli, I guess the best case scenario involving a claim to the land is that you are genetically identical to the “sub-human animals” that Israel has sought to violently displace for the past 75 years, and the worst case scenario is that you’re just a pasty stooge from Warsaw or Kyiv making a false claim based on the fairytale (since indigeneity isn’t a realistic, credible argument for the import crowd, anyway).
Are you saying that all Israelis are over 75 year old and come from Warsaw and Kyiv?
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