Gaza War, Part 3

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.

She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?

Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.

This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!

Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?

Bahrain. Iran (MP).

Exactly one Jewish ambassador from 21 Arab states with appointment that ended in 2018. No one since or probably ever. Iran’s Jews are literal hostages .

Now compare that to Israel's lone Arab cabinet member in its entire history. A cabinet member that wasn't responsible for anything, served less than a year and whose appointment led to the fall of the government.

utterly shameless

How about Arab Muslim supreme court justice? Also no power? How about Arab Muslim ambassadors? How about Arabs in the Knesset? Where are the Jew sin the government of Egypt, Jordan, etc, etc?

As a percentage of the Israeli population, the percentage of Arabs serving in Israeli institutions is very, very, very low. If we include the population of the occupied territories (who lack sovereignty), it's obscenely low.

But that's the idea, right, mate? APARTHEID FOREVER! The official unofficial Israeli battlecry ...

But who cares anyway? The U.S. more than makes up for whatever may exist in the world of Jews serving in governmental institutions at lower rates. So it all evens out, I suppose.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.

She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?

Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.

This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!

Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?

Bahrain. Iran (MP).

Exactly one Jewish ambassador from 21 Arab states with appointment that ended in 2018. No one since or probably ever. Iran’s Jews are literal hostages .

Well you asked!

Now your turn: why does Israel persist in the lies that Arab Israelis are equal to Jewish Israelis?

Because they are. They have the same rights as the Jews. The ministry is free to support whatever festival it wants. Is it discriminatory what they did or said ? Yes Does it infringe on any of her rights? No.

Except for marriage, death, birth, government benefits, land ownership, freedom of speech, etc etc.

utterly shameless

Again, cite Israeli code that doesn’t allow Arab Israelis to own land, obtain government benefits, have freedom of speech, etc etc.

You know that in the American south during reconstruction, Jim Crow, etc. there weren’t always specific civil codes that made up all of the “separate but equal” landscape right? And that the implementation of the law, not just the words on the page, contributes to what constitutes unequal?

Ministers now in government have called for the expulsion of Israeli-Arab citizens. It’s not a marginal fringe bunch of crazies— it’s the people making the laws.

And to answer your specific question, Israeli law allows preferable immigration status to relatives of Jewish descent vs. Arab descent. The relatives of Israeli Arabs who live in Jordan (or Gaza, or WB) cannot become Israeli citizens. That is not true of the relatives of Jewish Israelis.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.

She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?

Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.

This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!

Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?

Please tell us how Israel is better than any of those Arab countries when its defenders have nothing more to offer than this:

"Well, they're doing it, too! Well, maybe. Some of them, anyway!"

Oh poor baby nothing to retort with so you have to deflect?

You were just mocked for the idiocy of your response, and the lack of perspective that suffocates your views. I think that's more than "nothing".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.

She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?

Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.

This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!

Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?

Is this your contention? Israel is equal in morality to Saudi? Iran? If so that’s fine but then why spend so much time trying to insist Israel is somehow “better” and should be viewed by the world as such?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

In their often shambolic and occasionally hysterical appearance before the International Court of Justice last Friday, at no point did the lawyers representing Israel give concrete arguments or convincing evidence that Israel’s three-month siege of Gaza should not be considered an act of genocide. Faced with a credible accusation of a crime one of their own called the “epitome and zenith of evil,” “the crime of crimes,” “the ultimate in wickedness,” they produced no proof they were not guilty.

Though they trumpeted the aid Israel is allegedly allowing into Gaza, Israel’s lawyers could not answer how it came to be that more than a million Palestinians will soon face outright famine. The Israel Defense Forces have to confront Hamas wherever they find its fighters, the lawyers insisted. But that cannot explain why a full 45 percent of Gaza’s housing stock is now a gray ruin or why entire city blocks are dynamited long after the area is cleared of the enemy; why indeed some of the oldest churches and mosques in the world are now husks. Proclaiming the high moral goal of rescuing hostages and insisting at every turn that the IDF obeys the rules of war, the lawyers gave no account for why Israeli soldiers felt able and entitled to shoot their own on sight: three men, shirtless, speaking Hebrew, waving a white flag. The leaflet drops, the text messages, the voicemails: This strategy of forewarning Gaza’s civilians was held up as an example of the army’s duty to international law, though no rebuttal was offered for why unguided “dumb” bombs are dropped on the very towns and villages and camps Palestinians were told were safe from strike—the same places those leaflets informed them would guarantee their lives.
Instead, Israel’s lawyers and agents complained. The charge of genocide brought by South Africa in The Hague was “a libel” designed to “delegitimize” the Israeli state and society. South Africa, which gave its submission to the court on Thursday, was seeking to “weaponize” the Genocide Convention in a “concerted and cynical attempt to pervert” the law’s true purpose. The lawyers, each in their turn, performed the usual acts of contrition and hand-wringing for the victims of so-called collateral damage: the “tragic … heartbreaking … terrible” civilian death toll that it attributed not to the designs and intent of the military but to the “harsh realities” of urban combat.

https://newrepublic.com/article/178174/israels-subtle-threats-international-court-justice

Israel is so lucky this has not been covered in the media here. Guess it is just a coincidence!

They are "THE BEST!" military in the world, they say.

We all know that the U.S. provides them with the latest and greatest weaponry.

But the facts have repeatedly shown that they can't hit the broad side of a barn.

What should we believe? What they say, or what they do?

The interesting thing is that they showed us in their attack in Beirut that took out a hamas leader + maybe 2/3 others? that they may very well have the capability to be precise in their targeting. Which makes me wonder about the whole we aren't trying to commit genocide narrative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.

She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?

Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.

This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!

Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?

Bahrain. Iran (MP).

Exactly one Jewish ambassador from 21 Arab states with appointment that ended in 2018. No one since or probably ever. Iran’s Jews are literal hostages .

Well you asked!

Now your turn: why does Israel persist in the lies that Arab Israelis are equal to Jewish Israelis?

Because they are. They have the same rights as the Jews. The ministry is free to support whatever festival it wants. Is it discriminatory what they did or said ? Yes Does it infringe on any of her rights? No.

Except for marriage, death, birth, government benefits, land ownership, freedom of speech, etc etc.

utterly shameless

Again, cite Israeli code that doesn’t allow Arab Israelis to own land, obtain government benefits, have freedom of speech, etc etc.

LOL ok.

"“Israel is not a state of all its citizens,” he wrote in response to criticism from an Israeli actor, Rotem Sela.

“According to the basic nationality law we passed, Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people – and only it.”

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2019/3/11/benjamin-netanyahu-israel-is-a-state-only-of-the-jewish-people

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

In their often shambolic and occasionally hysterical appearance before the International Court of Justice last Friday, at no point did the lawyers representing Israel give concrete arguments or convincing evidence that Israel’s three-month siege of Gaza should not be considered an act of genocide. Faced with a credible accusation of a crime one of their own called the “epitome and zenith of evil,” “the crime of crimes,” “the ultimate in wickedness,” they produced no proof they were not guilty.

Though they trumpeted the aid Israel is allegedly allowing into Gaza, Israel’s lawyers could not answer how it came to be that more than a million Palestinians will soon face outright famine. The Israel Defense Forces have to confront Hamas wherever they find its fighters, the lawyers insisted. But that cannot explain why a full 45 percent of Gaza’s housing stock is now a gray ruin or why entire city blocks are dynamited long after the area is cleared of the enemy; why indeed some of the oldest churches and mosques in the world are now husks. Proclaiming the high moral goal of rescuing hostages and insisting at every turn that the IDF obeys the rules of war, the lawyers gave no account for why Israeli soldiers felt able and entitled to shoot their own on sight: three men, shirtless, speaking Hebrew, waving a white flag. The leaflet drops, the text messages, the voicemails: This strategy of forewarning Gaza’s civilians was held up as an example of the army’s duty to international law, though no rebuttal was offered for why unguided “dumb” bombs are dropped on the very towns and villages and camps Palestinians were told were safe from strike—the same places those leaflets informed them would guarantee their lives.
Instead, Israel’s lawyers and agents complained. The charge of genocide brought by South Africa in The Hague was “a libel” designed to “delegitimize” the Israeli state and society. South Africa, which gave its submission to the court on Thursday, was seeking to “weaponize” the Genocide Convention in a “concerted and cynical attempt to pervert” the law’s true purpose. The lawyers, each in their turn, performed the usual acts of contrition and hand-wringing for the victims of so-called collateral damage: the “tragic … heartbreaking … terrible” civilian death toll that it attributed not to the designs and intent of the military but to the “harsh realities” of urban combat.

https://newrepublic.com/article/178174/israels-subtle-threats-international-court-justice

Israel is so lucky this has not been covered in the media here. Guess it is just a coincidence!

They are "THE BEST!" military in the world, they say.

We all know that the U.S. provides them with the latest and greatest weaponry.

But the facts have repeatedly shown that they can't hit the broad side of a barn.

What should we believe? What they say, or what they do?

The interesting thing is that they showed us in their attack in Beirut that took out a hamas leader + maybe 2/3 others? that they may very well have the capability to be precise in their targeting. Which makes me wonder about the whole we aren't trying to commit genocide narrative.

It's not like the man opened his mouth and said: "Our emphasis is on damage and not on precision" lol.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.

She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?

Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.

This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!

Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?

Is this your contention? Israel is equal in morality to Saudi? Iran? If so that’s fine but then why spend so much time trying to insist Israel is somehow “better” and should be viewed by the world as such?

Exactamundo!

"We're better than these savages, hell - we're better than everyone! Uh, but don't hold us to any higher standard of conduct than the ones we pillory for wanting to annihilate us. Thanks, bye."

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.

She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?

Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.

This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!

Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?

Bahrain. Iran (MP).

Exactly one Jewish ambassador from 21 Arab states with appointment that ended in 2018. No one since or probably ever. Iran’s Jews are literal hostages .

Well you asked!

Now your turn: why does Israel persist in the lies that Arab Israelis are equal to Jewish Israelis?

Because they are. They have the same rights as the Jews. The ministry is free to support whatever festival it wants. Is it discriminatory what they did or said ? Yes Does it infringe on any of her rights? No.

Except for marriage, death, birth, government benefits, land ownership, freedom of speech, etc etc.

utterly shameless

Again, cite Israeli code that doesn’t allow Arab Israelis to own land, obtain government benefits, have freedom of speech, etc etc.

utterly shameless

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.

She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?

Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.

This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!

Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?

Please tell us how Israel is better than any of those Arab countries when its defenders have nothing more to offer than this:

"Well, they're doing it, too! Well, maybe. Some of them, anyway!"

But also it’s apples and oranges. The percentage of Jewish population in the Arab countries is much smaller than the percentage of the Muslim population living in Israel.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?

Yup.

Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?

They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.

The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?

Yup.

Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?

They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.

The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….

I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?

Yup.

Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?

They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.

The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….

I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.

It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They are sub-human cretins.

And, we have Americans marching in support of these terrorists......

No. The protests are for a ceasefire and for the US to stop funding Israel. The Protests are not in support of Hamas terrorists.

Will Israel save the hostages lives by agreeing to a ceasefire?

Bullcrap.
Some of these protestors are carrying Hamas flags and chanting the same rhetoric as the Hamas terrorists.
And, we have seen more than enough evidence of people actually praising these less-than-human individuals.

DP

My friends who attended the protest are centrist types and were definitely just asking for a ceasefire and more humanity towards the Palestinians.

There were no doubt a minority of more extreme protestors but it was mostly peaceful and most protestors just want to see a ceasefire and humanitarian support for the many Palestinians civilians suffering from terrible injuries/ loss of homes/ loss of family members and starvation. Especially the many children who are suffering so much.

Everyone I know condemns Hamas actions on October 7.

But Israel’s disproportionate response is not only inhumane but making Israel less safe in a hostile region.

Very fine people at the protest, right?

You know the left has lost their minds when they’re parroting Trump’s rhetoric on Charlottesville.

What? I never said they were very fine people - I said they are sensible centrist types and not extremists. They simply Want the indiscriminate response by IDF to stop and for more humanitarian support for the innocent Palestinians. They also condemn Hamas’ actions but don’t think Israel’s scale of response is justified.

It is in no one’s interests to continue down this extreme path. Many Jewish friends in DMV are also horrified by the scale of devastation visited upon Palestinians / all while not approving of Hamas and wanting Israel to survive.

It is bizarre to refer to anyone who disagrees with IDF’s military tactics as anti semitic.

Looking at the photos of the destruction Israel has inflicted on Gaza is pretty drastic. Anyone who thinks this level of vengeance is moral and sane is fringe.

What specifically surprised them? How else modern warfare would look in an urban area? Look at Fallujah, Aleppo, Grozniy, Ukraine, etc. Modern warfare is designed to obliterate. What evidence have you all had that this will somehow look different?

The daily war death toll in Palestine averages 250 people a day, which is the highest in any major conflict in the 21st century. A disproportionate number of war dead are civilians, particularly children. This figure (250 a day) does not count deaths from the indirect effects of the war, such as starvation, disease, and cold. The number of dead under the rubble is unknown. For every death, several civilians are blinded, paralyzed, disfigured, and/or lose limbs. Almost every building in Gaza has been damaged or destroyed. Everyone in Gaza will be profoundly affected psychologically for the rest of their lives. It is extremely likely that Israeli hostages are dying along with the rest of the population, either through shelling or limited access to medical care and inadequate diet.

The goal appears to be to make Gaza completely unlivable, so Gazans either die or leave as refugees and Israeli settlers can move in and take over. Saving the hostages doesn't seem to be a priority. Israel could have negotiated their release ages ago. The whole thing is chilling. I don't like the term "evil," but what else does one call this?

That’s because every death is a Gazan civilian to you. They don’t wear uniforms and there are 20-30,000 Hamas operatives in Gaza. Israel estimates that 8,000 Hamas terrorists were killed. Again, it took Israel months to count 1200 dead but Hamas run healthcare which is supposed to be in total shambles, is somehow able to give real life updates on the numbers killed. If Israel’s estimates are correct and Hamas estimates are also correct the daily killed are 157 per day. No one is ever going to know the true number. We still don’t know how many were killed in Fallujah . Coalition forces estimate 10k while Iraqi sources estimate 40,000.

If we take both sides at their words, Israel has killed 14,000 civilians.

That’s worth it to you?

There's no "both sides" numbers. The only totals being cited are the questionable Hamas numbers. From the same Hamas Health Ministry folks who grossly exaggerated the Al Shifa death toll and others.

Israel has interestingly enough never disputed the Hamas Health Ministry numbers. Those numbers are considered by almost everyone, even the US, to be UNDERestimates.

Weird that anyone would think that. Earlier it was argued that they are "pretty accurate" based on an academic paper from the 2014 conflict - and NOT an underestimate. And meanwhile we KNOW Hamas health ministry overinflated the numbers, by as much as fourfold as they did at Al Shifa. We also know that credible sources have said 7,000-8,000 of the dead are Hamas fighters, which gives a much smaller percentage of civilian killings than Hamas's attack on Israel - a much larger percentage of the people they killled were civilians and not military or police.

Actually, the number of police, security, and IDF killed by the Palestinian “side” as a proportion of overall Israelis killed is higher than the number of Hamas killed by the Israeli “side” as a proportion of overall Palestinians killed. And that’s based on numbers provided or recognized by the IDF and Israel.

DP... 373 IDF and police were killed on 10/7. That puts the Hamas side at 70% of the victims of 10/7 killed by Hamas being civilians. The IDF side is at 65% of the deaths being civilians, so it's nominally similar but actually slightly less than the percentage of civilian Hamas victims. But then if you adjust those numbers for how many cases Hamas was directly complicit in, such as "friendly fire," using civilians as human shields, shooting civilians complaining about Hamas not distributing aid, civilians dying from lack of medicine because Hamas stole it et cetera, that percentage of deaths that IDF is responsible for drops even lower, to 45% or less. So, Hamas percentages are in fact worse than IDF.

You neglected to include the IDF deaths since 10/7.

DP. It’s roughly the same rate of civilians deaths for both. But if you want to discount a portion of the Palestinian civilians killed because they were supposedly used as human shields, which is an amorphous claim, then you should also point at the documented claim that Israel killed a significant number of its own civilians on 10/7 (and several since) due to police, security and IDF panic or direct order.

Regardless how you analyze the data, the conclusion that emerges is that neither side distinguishes itself from the other when it comes to targeting of combatants only.

It's not at all amorphous that Hamas hides behind civilians, there is plenty of evidence for that. Certainly far more evidence than your supposedly "documented" but debunked claim that IDF killed a significant number of its own civilians.

If by "evidence" you mean claims by Israeli or pro-Israeli sources that lack a shred of ACTUAL documentary evidence, sure.

Otherwise, provide the evidence you think exists. Also, provide the evidence that debunks the reports that the IDF and Israeli security forces killed Israeli civilians in their immediate response to the 10/7/2023 attacks.

*** crickets *** incoming ...

DP.

Absolutely no one arguing in good faith disputes that Hamas hides behind civilians.

Don't be foolish.

So your evidence, DP, is “everyone knows this”?

Yup.

Anyone still doubt that some posters here are pro-Hamas?

They are probably sitting outside of Beijing or Moscow.

The repetitive comments that any post criticizing Israel is a bot or Russian hacker is making me wonder if the vehement pro IdF posters who argue that killing 23k people and displaying 1.5 M from their homes is justified bc “it’s war” are bots themselves….

I cherish the one that pops up now and again with "God literally personally promised me this land!" bit.

It's nutters like you who don't understand the ancestral history of Jews in the holy land, been there longer than anyone.

Literally personally?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:hey Arab Israelis are equal and are not discriminated against at all, like evah.

She is not Jewish why would she represent a Jewish Religious Holiday of Shavuot?

Because the organizers saw it fit? The woman was good enough to light a torch on Israel Independence Day but not good enough for this? ok.

This is very typical Israeli discourse though. They love to talk about how "Arab Israelis are equal! we have Arab this and Arab that!". Then you show them all the instances of inequality in law and practice, and they are like, well, this is all right and proper, because Arabs! What did you expect! Is this a Jewish state or what!

Please tell us how Jews are treated in Arab countries, which arab country has a Jewish supreme court justice or Jewish ambassadors?

Please tell us how Israel is better than any of those Arab countries when its defenders have nothing more to offer than this:

"Well, they're doing it, too! Well, maybe. Some of them, anyway!"

But also it’s apples and oranges. The percentage of Jewish population in the Arab countries is much smaller than the percentage of the Muslim population living in Israel.

That’s due to Israel’s creation. Out of revenge for expelling Palestinians, Arab nations expelled their Jewish populations to Israel.

Prior to Israel’s creation in 1948, the Muslim world had no real issue with Jews . In fact, they preferred Jewish judges and doctors and bankers etc over Muslim ones and thought they were more fair . There was a famous Jewish Egyptian singer and actress named Leila Mourad
And every Muslim household in Egypt had her records.

The Palestinians and Israelis spoiled the relationship between Jews and Arabs. Many Jews didn’t even want to make Aliyah to Israel and loved their homes in Morrocco and other places . I think Iran was the only one who didn’t expel their Jews after 1948. The Iranian Jews stayed till later -until 1979.