Specialty School Programs in PG for all or just the elite?

[Anonymous]

Sorry I was reading the original thread and while I do agree that it would be fantastic if those programs were expanded ( I feel PG does a great job with them) I wanted know if you felt those programs already in existence function as "private schools" for PG upper class families? I feel improving the neighborhood schools should be first and foremost before we do anything else, but looking at the demographics at the specialty programs it seems they are functioning as private schools. Am I off about this or spot on? Its almost become like the charter schools in upper NW DC.

P.S. Not passing judgement just curious

[Anonymous]

Well, I think it depends on who you talk to. Maryland has some pretty good, IMO, charter laws in terms of holding schools accountable. I also think that a lot of people are wary of comprehensive public school programs for reasons that may be unjustified.

My child went to a specialty program (TAG school), and I can tell you that we are not elite by any stretch of the imagination. That said, I am a HUGE fan and proponent of strong neighborhood schools. We would have kept him where he was if he didn't get in to the TAG school. One, we didn't really have a choice, economically. Two, it really was the next best option for this particular kid.

[Anonymous]

16:28 again. In terms of TAG, I definitely appreciate that EVERY kid is screened, and that there is more than one way to be identified.

[Anonymous]

...I can't shut up...(it's me again)

I do think people with younger children aren't always realistic about how specialty programs work out or if they are a good fit or not. I happen to have a child who would absolutely FLOUNDER in certain specialty programs (performing arts, for example). One of the benefits of well-rounded, well-resourced public education done well is that children have well-rounded opportunities to discover new things without pressure to focus on it for life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:...I can't shut up...(it's me again)

I do think people with younger children aren't always realistic about how specialty programs work out or if they are a good fit or not. I happen to have a child who would absolutely FLOUNDER in certain specialty programs (performing arts, for example). One of the benefits of well-rounded, well-resourced public education done well is that children have well-rounded opportunities to discover new things without pressure to focus on it for life.

I agree. Some parents end up pulling their kids out of the program for that very exact reason

[Anonymous]

The fastest way to bring up the scores and reputation of PGCPS is to expand specialty programs (GT and others) that would draw upper middle class kids (with involved, educated parents) back into the public schools system. They come back into PGCPS, they are already firing on all cylinders, they get good test scores, and suddenly PGCPS raises its standing in the state.

It is much harder (as history shows) to bring up the scores of those in the lower SES bracket. Not saying that it should be ignored, but obviously, PGCPS and the state have been trying to do this for decades and it hasn't had much success. PGCPS just needs more of the not-so-needy students in its population to bring up the averages. Special programs are the way to win back the kids who are in privates and win educated families looking for a reasonably priced house to move into PGCPS. Families that have high scoring kids are looking for schools with a proven track record or special programs.

[Anonymous]

I actually think the opposite on the specialty programs. I guess we would be considered "elite", and lotteried into French Immersion. We really wanted an immersion program for our children. Our next option was to buy a home in one of the better performing school zones. Private was option 3.

However - the lottery is too late for parents who are heavily leaning toward private. So I think a lot of the people who you are talking about have already signed on the dotted line for private school by the time the lottery rolls around.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fastest way to bring up the scores and reputation of PGCPS is to expand specialty programs (GT and others) that would draw upper middle class kids (with involved, educated parents) back into the public schools system. They come back into PGCPS, they are already firing on all cylinders, they get good test scores, and suddenly PGCPS raises its standing in the state.

It is much harder (as history shows) to bring up the scores of those in the lower SES bracket. Not saying that it should be ignored, but obviously, PGCPS and the state have been trying to do this for decades and it hasn't had much success. PGCPS just needs more of the not-so-needy students in its population to bring up the averages. Special programs are the way to win back the kids who are in privates and win educated families looking for a reasonably priced house to move into PGCPS. Families that have high scoring kids are looking for schools with a proven track record or special programs.

I agree. It is a cynical view and clearly not a long-term solution– every child should be entitled to a good education – but it is what needs to be done in the short term.

And with real estate in all neighboring areas being completely out of control, now is the time to do it. People are going to have to start looking at PG if they want to buy a house close in for less than a million dollars. I am really shocked at the prices people are willing to pay just over the DC line from mount rainier where I live for equally bad local schools. The county really needs to take advantage of these rapid changes to the region before it's too late.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The fastest way to bring up the scores and reputation of PGCPS is to expand specialty programs (GT and others) that would draw upper middle class kids (with involved, educated parents) back into the public schools system. They come back into PGCPS, they are already firing on all cylinders, they get good test scores, and suddenly PGCPS raises its standing in the state.

It is much harder (as history shows) to bring up the scores of those in the lower SES bracket. Not saying that it should be ignored, but obviously, PGCPS and the state have been trying to do this for decades and it hasn't had much success. PGCPS just needs more of the not-so-needy students in its population to bring up the averages. Special programs are the way to win back the kids who are in privates and win educated families looking for a reasonably priced house to move into PGCPS. Families that have high scoring kids are looking for schools with a proven track record or special programs.

I agree. It is a cynical view and clearly not a long-term solution– every child should be entitled to a good education – but it is what needs to be done in the short term.

And with real estate in all neighboring areas being completely out of control, now is the time to do it. People are going to have to start looking at PG if they want to buy a house close in for less than a million dollars. I am really shocked at the prices people are willing to pay just over the DC line from mount rainier where I live for equally bad local schools. The county really needs to take advantage of these rapid changes to the region before it's too late.

I think a big issue is that the lotteries are WELL after the deadline for private schools. If they want those people, they have to have the lotteries BEFORE the private school deadlines. Many of those people live in areas that the local school just isn't an option. I am the PP that posted we were accepted into French Immersion. One of the reasons that we entered the lottery is that we WERE willing to send our kids to the local elementary for a year or two. If you don't have that option, you can't take a chance that your kid will get into one of the specialty schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The fastest way to bring up the scores and reputation of PGCPS is to expand specialty programs (GT and others) that would draw upper middle class kids (with involved, educated parents) back into the public schools system. They come back into PGCPS, they are already firing on all cylinders, they get good test scores, and suddenly PGCPS raises its standing in the state.

It is much harder (as history shows) to bring up the scores of those in the lower SES bracket. Not saying that it should be ignored, but obviously, PGCPS and the state have been trying to do this for decades and it hasn't had much success. PGCPS just needs more of the not-so-needy students in its population to bring up the averages. Special programs are the way to win back the kids who are in privates and win educated families looking for a reasonably priced house to move into PGCPS. Families that have high scoring kids are looking for schools with a proven track record or special programs.

I agree there are a lot of good performing schools that's can be easily great performing school. Like Woodmore, Glen Dale, Perrywood etc all of whom score around a 7 on great school website. They could easily be a 8 or 9. So I think the county should concentrate on those schools in the 5-7 score range, their are plenty of them. Yes also give better MS options

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually think the opposite on the specialty programs. I guess we would be considered "elite", and lotteried into French Immersion. We really wanted an immersion program for our children. Our next option was to buy a home in one of the better performing school zones. Private was option 3.

However - the lottery is too late for parents who are heavily leaning toward private. So I think a lot of the people who you are talking about have already signed on the dotted line for private school by the time the lottery rolls around.

This is us exactly. Between DH and I we have 6 degrees; we live in PG because we're cheap and have a lot of debt from paying off those 6 degrees! HHI currently 180K and we will move out before our daughter hits school age (she's not yet 2) because the lottery timing is terrible. Public education is my priority and I can't count on PG. So to speak to the original question, the lottery is and should be for all, but those programs need to be expanded so there's a better chance of middle and upper middle class people sticking around. Ideally, yes, our local school would also be improved, but I think you have to prioritize charter expansion first.

[Anonymous]

However, I have noticed that while there is comprehensive TAG screening, it is the very low SES families and often those who are immigrants who do not apply for Lottery or Charter programs, so a lot of neighborhood schools are left with children with less involved parents- by default.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

This is us exactly. Between DH and I we have 6 degrees; we live in PG because we're cheap and have a lot of debt from paying off those 6 degrees! HHI currently 180K and we will move out before our daughter hits school age (she's not yet 2) because the lottery timing is terrible. Public education is my priority and I can't count on PG. So to speak to the original question, the lottery is and should be for all, but those programs need to be expanded so there's a better chance of middle and upper middle class people sticking around. Ideally, yes, our local school would also be improved, but I think you have to prioritize charter expansion first.

I respectfully disagree about prioritizing charter expansion. Some charters are wonderful. Some charters are atrocious. A lot are somewhere in between, and like comprehensive traditional publics, none are a panecea. There is, under current Maryland law, a structure of oversight that some other states could stand to emulate. E.g., we haven't seen some of the fiscal malfeasance in this state with charters that some other states have, in part because charters have to be run by non-profit orgs, which means there is some increased transparency of the management company's finances. Special education services in MD charters are provided by the school district (check me on this one if I have it wrong).There is also room in traditional Maryland publics to do some really innovative and cool things with curriculum and differentiation.

...Just realized have a question for you, because I don't want to make assumptions. Are you hoping for charter expansion specifically, or expansion of specialty and other programs that includes charters? Many specialty programs are in a lot of ways radically different than traditional comprehensive ed, but are not charters per se.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is us exactly. Between DH and I we have 6 degrees; we live in PG because we're cheap and have a lot of debt from paying off those 6 degrees! HHI currently 180K and we will move out before our daughter hits school age (she's not yet 2) because the lottery timing is terrible. Public education is my priority and I can't count on PG. So to speak to the original question, the lottery is and should be for all, but those programs need to be expanded so there's a better chance of middle and upper middle class people sticking around. Ideally, yes, our local school would also be improved, but I think you have to prioritize charter expansion first.

I respectfully disagree about prioritizing charter expansion. Some charters are wonderful. Some charters are atrocious. A lot are somewhere in between, and like comprehensive traditional publics, none are a panecea. There is, under current Maryland law, a structure of oversight that some other states could stand to emulate. E.g., we haven't seen some of the fiscal malfeasance in this state with charters that some other states have, in part because charters have to be run by non-profit orgs, which means there is some increased transparency of the management company's finances. Special education services in MD charters are provided by the school district (check me on this one if I have it wrong).There is also room in traditional Maryland publics to do some really innovative and cool things with curriculum and differentiation.

...Just realized have a question for you, because I don't want to make assumptions. Are you hoping for charter expansion specifically, or expansion of specialty and other programs that includes charters? Many specialty programs are in a lot of ways radically different than traditional comprehensive ed, but are not charters per se.

First quoted PP here. Yes, you're right, I misspoke. I'd like to see specialty programs which could be or could not be charter (agreed that some charters are rubbish and the data isn't supporting the charter-glorification movement).

I would love to stay in PG, upgrade to a gorgeous home closer to the city, and still have money to burn on vacations, but I'm not going to, because I know the wait list for Goddard French and Goddard Montessori is...what...300-400 kids long for Kindergarten? That's absurd. My kid isn't going to get in, and I'm not going to send them local. Of course that sets off the chicken/egg question (is it better to offer more specialty programs, or is it better to improve my local school first?) and of course ideally we'd want both, mostly for all the people in our current hood (Laurel) who can't afford to leave or go private. I want better for them too.

The short answer is that our family will leave, right before kindergarten when we've paid off as much as possible of loans/debt and have maximized our HHI and thus our possible mortgage payment. And of course it's obnoxious to say, and I wouldn't be comfortable admitting in person to saying it, but we're the kind of people this county should want to keep (passionate about public ed, highly educated ourselves, and caring more about our kid's education than anything else such as commute, neighborhood style/prestige/amenities, etc.). It feels awful to say that this county needs to court the upper middle class (slippery slope! Checking out Ayn Rand books next!) but I guess there is a part of me that does believe it's an important part of improving this county's education system.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is us exactly. Between DH and I we have 6 degrees; we live in PG because we're cheap and have a lot of debt from paying off those 6 degrees! HHI currently 180K and we will move out before our daughter hits school age (she's not yet 2) because the lottery timing is terrible. Public education is my priority and I can't count on PG. So to speak to the original question, the lottery is and should be for all, but those programs need to be expanded so there's a better chance of middle and upper middle class people sticking around. Ideally, yes, our local school would also be improved, but I think you have to prioritize charter expansion first.

I respectfully disagree about prioritizing charter expansion. Some charters are wonderful. Some charters are atrocious. A lot are somewhere in between, and like comprehensive traditional publics, none are a panecea. There is, under current Maryland law, a structure of oversight that some other states could stand to emulate. E.g., we haven't seen some of the fiscal malfeasance in this state with charters that some other states have, in part because charters have to be run by non-profit orgs, which means there is some increased transparency of the management company's finances. Special education services in MD charters are provided by the school district (check me on this one if I have it wrong).There is also room in traditional Maryland publics to do some really innovative and cool things with curriculum and differentiation.

...Just realized have a question for you, because I don't want to make assumptions. Are you hoping for charter expansion specifically, or expansion of specialty and other programs that includes charters? Many specialty programs are in a lot of ways radically different than traditional comprehensive ed, but are not charters per se.

First quoted PP here. Yes, you're right, I misspoke. I'd like to see specialty programs which could be or could not be charter (agreed that some charters are rubbish and the data isn't supporting the charter-glorification movement).

I would love to stay in PG, upgrade to a gorgeous home closer to the city, and still have money to burn on vacations, but I'm not going to, because I know the wait list for Goddard French and Goddard Montessori is...what...300-400 kids long for Kindergarten? That's absurd. My kid isn't going to get in, and I'm not going to send them local. Of course that sets off the chicken/egg question (is it better to offer more specialty programs, or is it better to improve my local school first?) and of course ideally we'd want both, mostly for all the people in our current hood (Laurel) who can't afford to leave or go private. I want better for them too.

The short answer is that our family will leave, right before kindergarten when we've paid off as much as possible of loans/debt and have maximized our HHI and thus our possible mortgage payment. And of course it's obnoxious to say, and I wouldn't be comfortable admitting in person to saying it, but we're the kind of people this county should want to keep (passionate about public ed, highly educated ourselves, and caring more about our kid's education than anything else such as commute, neighborhood style/prestige/amenities, etc.). It feels awful to say that this county needs to court the upper middle class (slippery slope! Checking out Ayn Rand books next!) but I guess there is a part of me that does believe it's an important part of improving this county's education system.

Actually its not awful and everyone in the county agree's with you, its the actual county govt that refuses to put that movement in overdrive, because of PG unique demographics race isn't so much an issue like it is when it comes to DC and improving schools by bringing in a wealthier demographic. Also everyone voted down the tax increase in which Baker said was needed to improve PG schools