Gen Xers - Do you find Taylor Swift’s music bland?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the young boys listening to these days?

90s rock. Foo Fighters, Green Day, Offspring, Nirvana, The Smiths etc for mine.

lol no.

Well what are yours listening to? I’m reporting from the trenches, having two teen boys.

My friend’s 9 year old son loves grunge and wants to be a rock musician when he grows up.

That’s cool. I daresay that one is parental suggestion OR an older sibling, though. 9 yos aren’t generally unsupervised on the Internet to find their own stuff (or shouldn’t be).

9 yr olds aren’t roaming the internet to listen to music they are probably on Spotify.

Dude, Spotify is connected to the Internet. How do you think the search function works?

But I find that music oriented kids find new things on YouTube more than Spotify, or at least mine do. They listen to things they know already on Spotify.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the young boys listening to these days?

90s rock. Foo Fighters, Green Day, Offspring, Nirvana, The Smiths etc for mine.

lol no.

Well what are yours listening to? I’m reporting from the trenches, having two teen boys.

My friend’s 9 year old son loves grunge and wants to be a rock musician when he grows up.

That’s cool. I daresay that one is parental suggestion OR an older sibling, though. 9 yos aren’t generally unsupervised on the Internet to find their own stuff (or shouldn’t be).

9 yr olds aren’t roaming the internet to listen to music they are probably on Spotify.

Dude, Spotify is connected to the Internet. How do you think the search function works?

But I find that music oriented kids find new things on YouTube more than Spotify, or at least mine do. They listen to things they know already on Spotify.

It depends how you have it set up. We have an in house entertainment system which just has a few apps on it like Spotify. My kids play music that way, not personal devices. Also the car. If you give your kids an ipad or phone what do you expect?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the folks who are sticking in their heels about cultural and musical impact - if she is so insignificant, why are you here fighting about it? Honestly.

If there was nothing to see here, there would be no conversation about her or her music. But there is lots of conversation about her, her music. Her music sells. People rebound the music they already owned from her to support the sale of her new masters. She is selling out stadiums all over the world. Her movies and media sell.

Are you mad that she’s that savvy to make it happen for herself, when you want to convince yourself that she’s just basic?

Who cares if she’s not the Picasso of music. She’s killing what is making her rich, and living her best life. Her art is speaking to people. So much so that even though you claim to hate her, you can’t stop yourself from talking about her. That’s savvy as heck.

We’re not saying she’s insignificant. We’re questioning the claim that she’s uniquely impactful.

It’s like you all can’t see anything but the extremes. It’s either she’s the best or she’s the worst.

But who is claiming she’s uniquely impactful? I don’t think she’s ever said that? Most of her fans aren’t. They’re saying she is impactful on them. Now. The Beatles don’t speak to them because their music, while awesome, is no relevant now. TS speaks to the feels and time that people are experiencing now. Why is this so hard to understand or appreciate?

If you don’t see Swifties saying she’s had impact no one else has had, then you’re not paying attention. It’s happened on this thread.

FFS. Guess you’re too young to remember or even know about Beatlemania. Or Elvis. I mean, young people with the vapours actually fainting in the streets.

This happens with artists and famous people. It even happened with Cabbage Patch kids.

The fact that your position is to double up and actually get so angry and hate is actually the unhealthy position on this whole thing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the folks who are sticking in their heels about cultural and musical impact - if she is so insignificant, why are you here fighting about it? Honestly.

If there was nothing to see here, there would be no conversation about her or her music. But there is lots of conversation about her, her music. Her music sells. People rebound the music they already owned from her to support the sale of her new masters. She is selling out stadiums all over the world. Her movies and media sell.

Are you mad that she’s that savvy to make it happen for herself, when you want to convince yourself that she’s just basic?

Who cares if she’s not the Picasso of music. She’s killing what is making her rich, and living her best life. Her art is speaking to people. So much so that even though you claim to hate her, you can’t stop yourself from talking about her. That’s savvy as heck.

We’re not saying she’s insignificant. We’re questioning the claim that she’s uniquely impactful.

It’s like you all can’t see anything but the extremes. It’s either she’s the best or she’s the worst.

But who is claiming she’s uniquely impactful? I don’t think she’s ever said that? Most of her fans aren’t. They’re saying she is impactful on them. Now. The Beatles don’t speak to them because their music, while awesome, is no relevant now. TS speaks to the feels and time that people are experiencing now. Why is this so hard to understand or appreciate?

If you don’t see Swifties saying she’s had impact no one else has had, then you’re not paying attention. It’s happened on this thread.

FFS. Guess you’re too young to remember or even know about Beatlemania. Or Elvis. I mean, young people with the vapours actually fainting in the streets.

This happens with artists and famous people. It even happened with Cabbage Patch kids.

The fact that your position is to double up and actually get so angry and hate is actually the unhealthy position on this whole thing.

lol what? I have no anger or hate.

And I’m a big Beatles fan. I’m well aware of the obsessives there too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What are the young boys listening to these days?

90s rock. Foo Fighters, Green Day, Offspring, Nirvana, The Smiths etc for mine.

lol no.

Well what are yours listening to? I’m reporting from the trenches, having two teen boys.

My friend’s 9 year old son loves grunge and wants to be a rock musician when he grows up.

That’s cool. I daresay that one is parental suggestion OR an older sibling, though. 9 yos aren’t generally unsupervised on the Internet to find their own stuff (or shouldn’t be).

9 yr olds aren’t roaming the internet to listen to music they are probably on Spotify.[/i]
Dude, Spotify is connected to the Internet. How do you think the search function works?

But I find that music oriented kids find new things on YouTube more than Spotify, or at least mine do. They listen to things they know already on Spotify.

It depends how you have it set up. We have an in house entertainment system which just has a few apps on it like Spotify. My kids play music that way, not personal devices. Also the car. If you give your kids an ipad or phone what do you expect?

.

I have teens who got phones at 15, which I am informed is practically child abuse. Yes, they are allowed on YouTube.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the folks who are sticking in their heels about cultural and musical impact - if she is so insignificant, why are you here fighting about it? Honestly.

If there was nothing to see here, there would be no conversation about her or her music. But there is lots of conversation about her, her music. Her music sells. People rebound the music they already owned from her to support the sale of her new masters. She is selling out stadiums all over the world. Her movies and media sell.

Are you mad that she’s that savvy to make it happen for herself, when you want to convince yourself that she’s just basic?

Who cares if she’s not the Picasso of music. She’s killing what is making her rich, and living her best life. Her art is speaking to people. So much so that even though you claim to hate her, you can’t stop yourself from talking about her. That’s savvy as heck.

We’re not saying she’s insignificant. We’re questioning the claim that she’s uniquely impactful.

It’s like you all can’t see anything but the extremes. It’s either she’s the best or she’s the worst.

But who is claiming she’s uniquely impactful? I don’t think she’s ever said that? Most of her fans aren’t. They’re saying she is impactful on them. Now. The Beatles don’t speak to them because their music, while awesome, is no relevant now. TS speaks to the feels and time that people are experiencing now. Why is this so hard to understand or appreciate?

If you don’t see Swifties saying she’s had impact no one else has had, then you’re not paying attention. It’s happened on this thread.

Okay - and? What other artist during their lifetime has had the same impact ON THEM? Apparently none. Because they get to pick. They probably weren’t even around for the previous artists that were impactful on YOU.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For the folks who are sticking in their heels about cultural and musical impact - if she is so insignificant, why are you here fighting about it? Honestly.

If there was nothing to see here, there would be no conversation about her or her music. But there is lots of conversation about her, her music. Her music sells. People rebound the music they already owned from her to support the sale of her new masters. She is selling out stadiums all over the world. Her movies and media sell.

Are you mad that she’s that savvy to make it happen for herself, when you want to convince yourself that she’s just basic?

Who cares if she’s not the Picasso of music. She’s killing what is making her rich, and living her best life. Her art is speaking to people. So much so that even though you claim to hate her, you can’t stop yourself from talking about her. That’s savvy as heck.

We’re not saying she’s insignificant. We’re questioning the claim that she’s uniquely impactful.

It’s like you all can’t see anything but the extremes. It’s either she’s the best or she’s the worst.

But who is claiming she’s uniquely impactful? I don’t think she’s ever said that? Most of her fans aren’t. They’re saying she is impactful on them. Now. The Beatles don’t speak to them because their music, while awesome, is no relevant now. TS speaks to the feels and time that people are experiencing now. Why is this so hard to understand or appreciate?

If you don’t see Swifties saying she’s had impact no one else has had, then you’re not paying attention. It’s happened on this thread.

Okay - and? What other artist during their lifetime has had the same impact ON THEM? Apparently none. Because they get to pick. They probably weren’t even around for the previous artists that were impactful on YOU.

You continually ignore what I actually say. I don’t care if she’s impactful for them.

I care when they say “no one has had the impact of her” or “she’s the best selling artist alive, or ever.” Both things have been said on this thread. And when people question it, we’re called sexist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 2nd grader has even been frustrated about how obsessed her friends are with TS.

Yesterday she asked me why they all love her so much. “They say she’s the best musician in the world. She’s not, right? Why are they so obsessed with her?”

Wow, your 2nd grader is so musically progressive. Are they always this critical of their friends?

She’s a really kind friend. She just doesn’t understand why they keep talking about what is to her a random person.

I have a 2nd grade DD too and she doesn't dislike TS at all and really likes some of her songs but has also expressed frustration about the level of obsession among her friends. DD listens to lots of different kinds of music though and a lot of her friends just went straight from the Disney musicals to TS with no side journeys and I get why this is annoying. It feels brainless. Not because TS is bad but because she's the biggest pop star in the world and "everyone likes her" and it feels like a substitute for developing your own tastes and interests. But I think the world is sort of set up to encourage kids to think this way -- so much of kids' media is about telling kids "this is what you should like now" instead of just exposing kids to different things and seeing what they enjoy.

I like TS fine but I do sometimes feel like discussion of her blots out everything else. I think this is why these threads devolve into sniping where some people are criticizing Swift and then the Swifties come in to refute every criticism. It's because of the expectation that "everyone" has to like her and also like everything about her. You aren't allowed to say "I like some of her music but I find her presence at NFL games annoying" or "I think TTPD is great but hated everything before it" or "I really liked her music when I was younger but it just doesn't speak to me anymore." If you say any of these things you will immediately have someone jumping on you and saying your qualified fandom is wrong and misogynistic. But I think those are all reasonable comments and I think if you made them about pretty much anyone else they would go unremarked upon. But with Swift they will be refuted. Why? It's just an opinion.

I think if you were to look at some of these threads, you will find many comments that people don’t respond to or take offense to. Even people who don’t like or say negative things about her. The things that I see being commented on and browbeaten are 3 variations on a theme I don’t see that about other artists:

1 is Taylor’s music sucks, and that her fans are just too stupid to know it. And then they will inevitably talk about all the cool artists that they like. And then I guess they’re just “countercultural” or something for not liking Taylor (Yes, someone up there actually used this term).

Gee I wonder why people would take offense to that or maybe take the time to respond to it? It’s condescending as hell.

2 is Very similar, but we don’t actually like her music, we are just being marketed to, and we only think we like her music. Fans are just too stupid to realize this, but they see the light thank goodness.

3 also similar is no, her music is good, it’s just that she has nothing to do with it and I guess it’s like 4 white males behind the curtains like the Wizard of Oz doing it all and she is just the brand. This one is my favorite because I love to think about The National’s Aaron Dessner in his kitchen in his flannel shirt penning the lyrics to So High School.

With other artists if people don’t like them they tend not to start 100 threads on them and berate their fans. I’m not big into Ed Sheeran and I don’t really understand why anyone would go to a concert, but when I found out a friend of mine was going, I didn’t spend a lot of time pondering why the hell would you do that, and run off to DCUM and start threads bashing Ed and his fans.

Like With anything, I’m sure in real life This would be much more nuanced and pleasant conversation and back-and-forth. It’s just the Internet everything just devolved. Seriously don’t know if most of my friends even like Taylor Swift or not.

I think you are taking all of this very hard.

1. If you like her music,t hat is fine, but the overwhelming attitude of “best artist ever’ that proliferates from Taylor fans is just not true for everyone. Taylor fans often refuse to allow any criticism of her. Being secure in your opinion doesn’t mean taking others ideas down. It means being ok with saying she is my favorite artist without telling everyone else what to think. Everyone makes fun of my favorite band and igaf- it doesn’t change how or why I like them, but Swifties need to be the majority in the opinion of her and I don’t understand it.

2. You can like her music, but her GREATNESS and most of her money does come from marketing. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t like her or that she doesn’t put out some decent songs, but it does mean that her rise to fame takes in many many factors. Particularly, the online presence she has built with her fans from the age of 12 has kept her fans loyal and good strong money makers for her. Her greatness doesnt lie in her music because music is personal taste. Her greatness is her marketing and her brand. Again, why does this matter, if you like and respect her narrative, you are free to pay to play and go to concerts. It doesn’t make you stupid, it just means you bought into the entire package. Why do YOU see this as something that is wrong?

3. She doesn’t have a live band, definitely relies on drum tracks and vocal backing and other devices to enhance her music. Many pop artist do, it is okay. Why do you feel the need to ascribe all of this to her, rather than realizing she follows the normal pop song trajectory of having drum lines etc?

It is okay to have adn consume social media from a pop star, have help making songs and still like the artist and her story.

That doesn’t mean I do and pointing out those things, shouldn’t ’change your thoughts on your favorite star UNLESS you start to see it too and it starts to bother you. A

People and do say tons of crap about my favorite band, my friends and family all roll their eyes at me, but they have a lot of personal meaning to me so it doesn’t rally bother me, nor do I need to point out to them all the good parts I enjoy. Live and let live and enjoy what you like. If people criticize it is okay.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 2nd grader has even been frustrated about how obsessed her friends are with TS.

Yesterday she asked me why they all love her so much. “They say she’s the best musician in the world. She’s not, right? Why are they so obsessed with her?”

Wow, your 2nd grader is so musically progressive. Are they always this critical of their friends?

She’s a really kind friend. She just doesn’t understand why they keep talking about what is to her a random person.

I have a 2nd grade DD too and she doesn't dislike TS at all and really likes some of her songs but has also expressed frustration about the level of obsession among her friends. DD listens to lots of different kinds of music though and a lot of her friends just went straight from the Disney musicals to TS with no side journeys and I get why this is annoying. It feels brainless. Not because TS is bad but because she's the biggest pop star in the world and "everyone likes her" and it feels like a substitute for developing your own tastes and interests. But I think the world is sort of set up to encourage kids to think this way -- so much of kids' media is about telling kids "this is what you should like now" instead of just exposing kids to different things and seeing what they enjoy.

I like TS fine but I do sometimes feel like discussion of her blots out everything else. I think this is why these threads devolve into sniping where some people are criticizing Swift and then the Swifties come in to refute every criticism. It's because of the expectation that "everyone" has to like her and also like everything about her. You aren't allowed to say "I like some of her music but I find her presence at NFL games annoying" or "I think TTPD is great but hated everything before it" or "I really liked her music when I was younger but it just doesn't speak to me anymore." If you say any of these things you will immediately have someone jumping on you and saying your qualified fandom is wrong and misogynistic. But I think those are all reasonable comments and I think if you made them about pretty much anyone else they would go unremarked upon. But with Swift they will be refuted. Why? It's just an opinion.

I think if you were to look at some of these threads, you will find many comments that people don’t respond to or take offense to. Even people who don’t like or say negative things about her. The things that I see being commented on and browbeaten are 3 variations on a theme I don’t see that about other artists:

1 is Taylor’s music sucks, and that her fans are just too stupid to know it. And then they will inevitably talk about all the cool artists that they like. And then I guess they’re just “countercultural” or something for not liking Taylor (Yes, someone up there actually used this term).

Gee I wonder why people would take offense to that or maybe take the time to respond to it? It’s condescending as hell.

2 is Very similar, but we don’t actually like her music, we are just being marketed to, and we only think we like her music. Fans are just too stupid to realize this, but they see the light thank goodness.

3 also similar is no, her music is good, it’s just that she has nothing to do with it and I guess it’s like 4 white males behind the curtains like the Wizard of Oz doing it all and she is just the brand. This one is my favorite because I love to think about The National’s Aaron Dessner in his kitchen in his flannel shirt penning the lyrics to So High School.

With other artists if people don’t like them they tend not to start 100 threads on them and berate their fans. I’m not big into Ed Sheeran and I don’t really understand why anyone would go to a concert, but when I found out a friend of mine was going, I didn’t spend a lot of time pondering why the hell would you do that, and run off to DCUM and start threads bashing Ed and his fans.

Like With anything, I’m sure in real life This would be much more nuanced and pleasant conversation and back-and-forth. It’s just the Internet everything just devolved. Seriously don’t know if most of my friends even like Taylor Swift or not.

I think you are taking all of this very hard.

1. If you like her music,t hat is fine, but the overwhelming attitude of “best artist ever’ that proliferates from Taylor fans is just not true for everyone. Taylor fans often refuse to allow any criticism of her. Being secure in your opinion doesn’t mean taking others ideas down. It means being ok with saying she is my favorite artist without telling everyone else what to think. Everyone makes fun of my favorite band and igaf- it doesn’t change how or why I like them, but Swifties need to be the majority in the opinion of her and I don’t understand it.

2. You can like her music, but her GREATNESS and most of her money does come from marketing. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t like her or that she doesn’t put out some decent songs, but it does mean that her rise to fame takes in many many factors. Particularly, the online presence she has built with her fans from the age of 12 has kept her fans loyal and good strong money makers for her. Her greatness doesnt lie in her music because music is personal taste. Her greatness is her marketing and her brand. Again, why does this matter, if you like and respect her narrative, you are free to pay to play and go to concerts. It doesn’t make you stupid, it just means you bought into the entire package. Why do YOU see this as something that is wrong?

3. She doesn’t have a live band, definitely relies on drum tracks and vocal backing and other devices to enhance her music. Many pop artist do, it is okay. Why do you feel the need to ascribe all of this to her, rather than realizing she follows the normal pop song trajectory of having drum lines etc?

It is okay to have adn consume social media from a pop star, have help making songs and still like the artist and her story.

That doesn’t mean I do and pointing out those things, shouldn’t ’change your thoughts on your favorite star UNLESS you start to see it too and it starts to bother you. A

People and do say tons of crap about my favorite band, my friends and family all roll their eyes at me, but they have a lot of personal meaning to me so it doesn’t rally bother me, nor do I need to point out to them all the good parts I enjoy. Live and let live and enjoy what you like. If people criticize it is okay.

Exactly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m curious as to what TS has done that’s unprecedented. This seems to be a claim by a lot of Swifties. There’s this notion that she is uniquely successful, influential, etc.

It’s not record sales. Among artists that started in the 2000s, Rihanna beats her. If you take Eminem (1999 start), he does too.

It’s not cultural impact. Madonna and MJ were enormous in their heyday.

It’s not impact on the music industry. The Beatles arguably began the notion of the rock band, had the first concept album, first major merchandising contracts, first stadium tour.

So what is it?

I disagree on cultural impact. A couple of months ago my husband and I who are both in our late 40s were telling our daughters about the night Michael Jackson first performed the moonwalk. And what a different time it was because the next day all of our classmates and teachers were talking about it.

It’s just so much harder in today’s pop cultural landscape, with kids maybe looking at TikTok and having their own streaming profile, and parents being on a totally different social media platform and a totally different streaming profile. We are all watching different shows, listening to different music more on our own little devices.

You can get on a plane and watch whatever you want, versus years ago it was one movie being shown. So I think it’s not just Taylor but the general landscape, it’s kind of crazy all the generations seem to know her and how much attention she gets.

Taylor’s vinyl album sales are also pretty insane for this day and age. Yes 30 years ago you would not have blinked, but the fact that there are so many young kids actually buying vinyl records because of her is pretty impressive.

Clearly there’s lots of other artists and pop culture figures who’ve had a huge impact and maybe even the same or similar or more, but she is definitely up there with them.

Vinyl sales went up before she started to really hit it big. Yes, she has had good vinyl sales, but part of that is because she puts out so many editions of her albums.

I think of her as a contemporary version of Madonna or another diva. I simply don’t see where she’s breaking new ground.

I love Madonna, and have been to some of her concerts. I just don’t see people talking about or reacting to Madonna concerts the same way they react to Taylor’s. The Eras tour seems a little unprecedented to me. Of course other artists have had hugely successful tours, I’m not trying to say they haven’t, but I guess I just don’t understand what we’re arguing about. Taylor is big and popular. I don’t understand why that’s controversial or even subjective.

When you say you've been to a Madonna concert do you mean in the last 10-15 years or do you mean you saw The Blonde Ambition or Girlie Show tours in the early 90s? Because those are the tours that would have been more comparable to Eras in terms of feeling culturally groundbreaking and being just the hottest thing going. Madonna's image from Blonde Ambition -- the Gautier conical corset in gold or champagne with the short curly blonde bob and the headset mic -- is so iconic that many of Taylor's looks from Eras offer references to that tour and to the Madonna's overall approach to touring and performance. A lot of what people now consider standard for a major pop star doing an arena or stadium tour was fairly original when Madonna was at her peak in her career. She was also pushing boundaries in a way Taylor doesn't -- her Sex book and the documentary that went with it (which also came out early 90s) was part of Madonna actively moving the culture in ways that went beyond music (greater acceptance of homosexuality and bisexuality and more frankness in talking about sexuality outside of traditional heterosexual sex in marriage). Whether you like that or not is beside the point (I'm actually a bit of a prude and kind of roll my eyes at some of it) -- it was culturally influential in a major way.

That's not me saying that Madonna is better than Taylor Swift or that Swift is not culturally influential. I don't even have strong feelings about Madonna and while I enjoy a lot of her early music in a nostalgic way because it was part of the soundtrack of my youth. But when someone tells me that Swift is just way more culturally important than Madonna was because they are comparing Eras to one of Madonna's more recent tours that she has done in her 50s and 60s it just sounds uneducated to me. Taylor Swift is culturally huge and her current tour is unquestionably the biggest thing going in pop music. But the idea that she is somehow unprecedented and is bigger and more important than any pop star that came before her? If you are Gen X or older you know that's not true.

I’m Gen X… I went to her earlier concerts. I’m definitely not disagreeing with you. it seems like we are making two different points. I am simply saying Taylor is big. Not trying to compare them or say which one is better. Just that Taylor is impacting the zeitgeist.

Lots of celebs - I can name literally dozens - have spoken out against Trump in a way that is way more brazen and even insulting than Taylor’s very nuanced endorsement of Harris. And yet no one has gotten under Trump’s skin more that he actually had to tweet out I hate Taylor Swift.

I just feel it’s examples like that that are really unprecedented. Her ability to have millions of people register to vote after simply asking them to last year. Madonna and others were involved in Rock the Vote a couple decades ago which was genius and ahead of its time. But I don’t think it had nearly the impact. Taylor got time person of the year. Taylor’s concert selling out movie theaters, again in an age when people aren’t really going to movie theaters as much…. Just examples like that I’m thinking of. Certainly other musicians have had major cultural impact too. And again, maybe Taylor hasn’t had MORE , but she’s definitely up there with one of the most influential.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m curious as to what TS has done that’s unprecedented. This seems to be a claim by a lot of Swifties. There’s this notion that she is uniquely successful, influential, etc.

It’s not record sales. Among artists that started in the 2000s, Rihanna beats her. If you take Eminem (1999 start), he does too.

It’s not cultural impact. Madonna and MJ were enormous in their heyday.

It’s not impact on the music industry. The Beatles arguably began the notion of the rock band, had the first concept album, first major merchandising contracts, first stadium tour.

So what is it?

I disagree on cultural impact. A couple of months ago my husband and I who are both in our late 40s were telling our daughters about the night Michael Jackson first performed the moonwalk. And what a different time it was because the next day all of our classmates and teachers were talking about it.

It’s just so much harder in today’s pop cultural landscape, with kids maybe looking at TikTok and having their own streaming profile, and parents being on a totally different social media platform and a totally different streaming profile. We are all watching different shows, listening to different music more on our own little devices.

You can get on a plane and watch whatever you want, versus years ago it was one movie being shown. So I think it’s not just Taylor but the general landscape, it’s kind of crazy all the generations seem to know her and how much attention she gets.

Taylor’s vinyl album sales are also pretty insane for this day and age. Yes 30 years ago you would not have blinked, but the fact that there are so many young kids actually buying vinyl records because of her is pretty impressive.

Clearly there’s lots of other artists and pop culture figures who’ve had a huge impact and maybe even the same or similar or more, but she is definitely up there with them.

Vinyl sales went up before she started to really hit it big. Yes, she has had good vinyl sales, but part of that is because she puts out so many editions of her albums.

I think of her as a contemporary version of Madonna or another diva. I simply don’t see where she’s breaking new ground.

I love Madonna, and have been to some of her concerts. I just don’t see people talking about or reacting to Madonna concerts the same way they react to Taylor’s. The Eras tour seems a little unprecedented to me. Of course other artists have had hugely successful tours, I’m not trying to say they haven’t, but I guess I just don’t understand what we’re arguing about. Taylor is big and popular. I don’t understand why that’s controversial or even subjective.

When you say you've been to a Madonna concert do you mean in the last 10-15 years or do you mean you saw The Blonde Ambition or Girlie Show tours in the early 90s? Because those are the tours that would have been more comparable to Eras in terms of feeling culturally groundbreaking and being just the hottest thing going. Madonna's image from Blonde Ambition -- the Gautier conical corset in gold or champagne with the short curly blonde bob and the headset mic -- is so iconic that many of Taylor's looks from Eras offer references to that tour and to the Madonna's overall approach to touring and performance. A lot of what people now consider standard for a major pop star doing an arena or stadium tour was fairly original when Madonna was at her peak in her career. She was also pushing boundaries in a way Taylor doesn't -- her Sex book and the documentary that went with it (which also came out early 90s) was part of Madonna actively moving the culture in ways that went beyond music (greater acceptance of homosexuality and bisexuality and more frankness in talking about sexuality outside of traditional heterosexual sex in marriage). Whether you like that or not is beside the point (I'm actually a bit of a prude and kind of roll my eyes at some of it) -- it was culturally influential in a major way.

That's not me saying that Madonna is better than Taylor Swift or that Swift is not culturally influential. I don't even have strong feelings about Madonna and while I enjoy a lot of her early music in a nostalgic way because it was part of the soundtrack of my youth. But when someone tells me that Swift is just way more culturally important than Madonna was because they are comparing Eras to one of Madonna's more recent tours that she has done in her 50s and 60s it just sounds uneducated to me. Taylor Swift is culturally huge and her current tour is unquestionably the biggest thing going in pop music. But the idea that she is somehow unprecedented and is bigger and more important than any pop star that came before her? If you are Gen X or older you know that's not true.

I’m Gen X… I went to her earlier concerts. I’m definitely not disagreeing with you. it seems like we are making two different points. I am simply saying Taylor is big. Not trying to compare them or say which one is better. Just that Taylor is impacting the zeitgeist.

Lots of celebs - I can name literally dozens - have spoken out against Trump in a way that is way more brazen and even insulting than Taylor’s very nuanced endorsement of Harris. And yet no one has gotten under Trump’s skin more that he actually had to tweet out I hate Taylor Swift.

I just feel it’s examples like that that are really unprecedented. Her ability to have millions of people register to vote after simply asking them to last year. Madonna and others were involved in Rock the Vote a couple decades ago which was genius and ahead of its time. But I don’t think it had nearly the impact. Taylor got time person of the year. Taylor’s concert selling out movie theaters, again in an age when people aren’t really going to movie theaters as much…. Just examples like that I’m thinking of. Certainly other musicians have had major cultural impact too. And again, maybe Taylor hasn’t had MORE , but she’s definitely up there with one of the most influential.

She has become the biggest thing in pop. It’s happened before and it’ll happen again.

Previous examples:

Elvis
The Beatles
Madonna
Michael Jackson

That’s really it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:My 2nd grader has even been frustrated about how obsessed her friends are with TS.

Yesterday she asked me why they all love her so much. “They say she’s the best musician in the world. She’s not, right? Why are they so obsessed with her?”

Wow, your 2nd grader is so musically progressive. Are they always this critical of their friends?

She’s a really kind friend. She just doesn’t understand why they keep talking about what is to her a random person.

I have a 2nd grade DD too and she doesn't dislike TS at all and really likes some of her songs but has also expressed frustration about the level of obsession among her friends. DD listens to lots of different kinds of music though and a lot of her friends just went straight from the Disney musicals to TS with no side journeys and I get why this is annoying. It feels brainless. Not because TS is bad but because she's the biggest pop star in the world and "everyone likes her" and it feels like a substitute for developing your own tastes and interests. But I think the world is sort of set up to encourage kids to think this way -- so much of kids' media is about telling kids "this is what you should like now" instead of just exposing kids to different things and seeing what they enjoy.

I like TS fine but I do sometimes feel like discussion of her blots out everything else. I think this is why these threads devolve into sniping where some people are criticizing Swift and then the Swifties come in to refute every criticism. It's because of the expectation that "everyone" has to like her and also like everything about her. You aren't allowed to say "I like some of her music but I find her presence at NFL games annoying" or "I think TTPD is great but hated everything before it" or "I really liked her music when I was younger but it just doesn't speak to me anymore." If you say any of these things you will immediately have someone jumping on you and saying your qualified fandom is wrong and misogynistic. But I think those are all reasonable comments and I think if you made them about pretty much anyone else they would go unremarked upon. But with Swift they will be refuted. Why? It's just an opinion.

I think if you were to look at some of these threads, you will find many comments that people don’t respond to or take offense to. Even people who don’t like or say negative things about her. The things that I see being commented on and browbeaten are 3 variations on a theme I don’t see that about other artists:

1 is Taylor’s music sucks, and that her fans are just too stupid to know it. And then they will inevitably talk about all the cool artists that they like. And then I guess they’re just “countercultural” or something for not liking Taylor (Yes, someone up there actually used this term).

Gee I wonder why people would take offense to that or maybe take the time to respond to it? It’s condescending as hell.

2 is Very similar, but we don’t actually like her music, we are just being marketed to, and we only think we like her music. Fans are just too stupid to realize this, but they see the light thank goodness.

3 also similar is no, her music is good, it’s just that she has nothing to do with it and I guess it’s like 4 white males behind the curtains like the Wizard of Oz doing it all and she is just the brand. This one is my favorite because I love to think about The National’s Aaron Dessner in his kitchen in his flannel shirt penning the lyrics to So High School.

With other artists if people don’t like them they tend not to start 100 threads on them and berate their fans. I’m not big into Ed Sheeran and I don’t really understand why anyone would go to a concert, but when I found out a friend of mine was going, I didn’t spend a lot of time pondering why the hell would you do that, and run off to DCUM and start threads bashing Ed and his fans.

Like With anything, I’m sure in real life This would be much more nuanced and pleasant conversation and back-and-forth. It’s just the Internet everything just devolved. Seriously don’t know if most of my friends even like Taylor Swift or not.

I think you are taking all of this very hard.

1. If you like her music,t hat is fine, but the overwhelming attitude of “best artist ever’ that proliferates from Taylor fans is just not true for everyone. Taylor fans often refuse to allow any criticism of her. Being secure in your opinion doesn’t mean taking others ideas down. It means being ok with saying she is my favorite artist without telling everyone else what to think. Everyone makes fun of my favorite band and igaf- it doesn’t change how or why I like them, but Swifties need to be the majority in the opinion of her and I don’t understand it.

2. You can like her music, but her GREATNESS and most of her money does come from marketing. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t like her or that she doesn’t put out some decent songs, but it does mean that her rise to fame takes in many many factors. Particularly, the online presence she has built with her fans from the age of 12 has kept her fans loyal and good strong money makers for her. Her greatness doesnt lie in her music because music is personal taste. Her greatness is her marketing and her brand. Again, why does this matter, if you like and respect her narrative, you are free to pay to play and go to concerts. It doesn’t make you stupid, it just means you bought into the entire package. Why do YOU see this as something that is wrong?

3. She doesn’t have a live band, definitely relies on drum tracks and vocal backing and other devices to enhance her music. Many pop artist do, it is okay. Why do you feel the need to ascribe all of this to her, rather than realizing she follows the normal pop song trajectory of having drum lines etc?

It is okay to have adn consume social media from a pop star, have help making songs and still like the artist and her story.

That doesn’t mean I do and pointing out those things, shouldn’t ’change your thoughts on your favorite star UNLESS you start to see it too and it starts to bother you. A

People and do say tons of crap about my favorite band, my friends and family all roll their eyes at me, but they have a lot of personal meaning to me so it doesn’t rally bother me, nor do I need to point out to them all the good parts I enjoy. Live and let live and enjoy what you like. If people criticize it is okay.

Don’t all artists market their music/brand? I agree Swift has successfully used social media to build her fan base. I don’t see why this is a negative attribute for Swift but apparently a positive for any band you like.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 2nd grader has even been frustrated about how obsessed her friends are with TS.

Yesterday she asked me why they all love her so much. “They say she’s the best musician in the world. She’s not, right? Why are they so obsessed with her?”

Wow, your 2nd grader is so musically progressive. Are they always this critical of their friends?

She’s a really kind friend. She just doesn’t understand why they keep talking about what is to her a random person.

I have a 2nd grade DD too and she doesn't dislike TS at all and really likes some of her songs but has also expressed frustration about the level of obsession among her friends. DD listens to lots of different kinds of music though and a lot of her friends just went straight from the Disney musicals to TS with no side journeys and I get why this is annoying. It feels brainless. Not because TS is bad but because she's the biggest pop star in the world and "everyone likes her" and it feels like a substitute for developing your own tastes and interests. But I think the world is sort of set up to encourage kids to think this way -- so much of kids' media is about telling kids "this is what you should like now" instead of just exposing kids to different things and seeing what they enjoy.

I like TS fine but I do sometimes feel like discussion of her blots out everything else. I think this is why these threads devolve into sniping where some people are criticizing Swift and then the Swifties come in to refute every criticism. It's because of the expectation that "everyone" has to like her and also like everything about her. You aren't allowed to say "I like some of her music but I find her presence at NFL games annoying" or "I think TTPD is great but hated everything before it" or "I really liked her music when I was younger but it just doesn't speak to me anymore." If you say any of these things you will immediately have someone jumping on you and saying your qualified fandom is wrong and misogynistic. But I think those are all reasonable comments and I think if you made them about pretty much anyone else they would go unremarked upon. But with Swift they will be refuted. Why? It's just an opinion.

I think if you were to look at some of these threads, you will find many comments that people don’t respond to or take offense to. Even people who don’t like or say negative things about her. The things that I see being commented on and browbeaten are 3 variations on a theme I don’t see that about other artists:

1 is Taylor’s music sucks, and that her fans are just too stupid to know it. And then they will inevitably talk about all the cool artists that they like. And then I guess they’re just “countercultural” or something for not liking Taylor (Yes, someone up there actually used this term).

Gee I wonder why people would take offense to that or maybe take the time to respond to it? It’s condescending as hell.

2 is Very similar, but we don’t actually like her music, we are just being marketed to, and we only think we like her music. Fans are just too stupid to realize this, but they see the light thank goodness.

3 also similar is no, her music is good, it’s just that she has nothing to do with it and I guess it’s like 4 white males behind the curtains like the Wizard of Oz doing it all and she is just the brand. This one is my favorite because I love to think about The National’s Aaron Dessner in his kitchen in his flannel shirt penning the lyrics to So High School.

With other artists if people don’t like them they tend not to start 100 threads on them and berate their fans. I’m not big into Ed Sheeran and I don’t really understand why anyone would go to a concert, but when I found out a friend of mine was going, I didn’t spend a lot of time pondering why the hell would you do that, and run off to DCUM and start threads bashing Ed and his fans.

Like With anything, I’m sure in real life This would be much more nuanced and pleasant conversation and back-and-forth. It’s just the Internet everything just devolved. Seriously don’t know if most of my friends even like Taylor Swift or not.

I think you are taking all of this very hard.

1. If you like her music,t hat is fine, but the overwhelming attitude of “best artist ever’ that proliferates from Taylor fans is just not true for everyone. Taylor fans often refuse to allow any criticism of her. Being secure in your opinion doesn’t mean taking others ideas down. It means being ok with saying she is my favorite artist without telling everyone else what to think. Everyone makes fun of my favorite band and igaf- it doesn’t change how or why I like them, but Swifties need to be the majority in the opinion of her and I don’t understand it.

2. You can like her music, but her GREATNESS and most of her money does come from marketing. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t like her or that she doesn’t put out some decent songs, but it does mean that her rise to fame takes in many many factors. Particularly, the online presence she has built with her fans from the age of 12 has kept her fans loyal and good strong money makers for her. Her greatness doesnt lie in her music because music is personal taste. Her greatness is her marketing and her brand. Again, why does this matter, if you like and respect her narrative, you are free to pay to play and go to concerts. It doesn’t make you stupid, it just means you bought into the entire package. Why do YOU see this as something that is wrong?

3. She doesn’t have a live band, definitely relies on drum tracks and vocal backing and other devices to enhance her music. Many pop artist do, it is okay. Why do you feel the need to ascribe all of this to her, rather than realizing she follows the normal pop song trajectory of having drum lines etc?

It is okay to have adn consume social media from a pop star, have help making songs and still like the artist and her story.

That doesn’t mean I do and pointing out those things, shouldn’t ’change your thoughts on your favorite star UNLESS you start to see it too and it starts to bother you. A

People and do say tons of crap about my favorite band, my friends and family all roll their eyes at me, but they have a lot of personal meaning to me so it doesn’t rally bother me, nor do I need to point out to them all the good parts I enjoy. Live and let live and enjoy what you like. If people criticize it is okay.

1) Strawman. I think most Swift fans on here are fine with her not being other people's favorite artists. Again, it is the ignorance in the criticisms that people have an issue with.
2) There are hints of dismissiveness here towards fans. Swifties understand they have a parasocial relationship and that one of her biggest draws is her 'lore' and how she puts it all out there to them. They identify strongly with the lyrics/songs/themes. Maybe not the guitar riffs and that is ok.
3) What do you mean she doesn't have a live band? She does and most of the members have been with her for at least a decade, starting with Paul. But maybe you mean something else by live band?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 2nd grader has even been frustrated about how obsessed her friends are with TS.

Yesterday she asked me why they all love her so much. “They say she’s the best musician in the world. She’s not, right? Why are they so obsessed with her?”

Wow, your 2nd grader is so musically progressive. Are they always this critical of their friends?

She’s a really kind friend. She just doesn’t understand why they keep talking about what is to her a random person.

I have a 2nd grade DD too and she doesn't dislike TS at all and really likes some of her songs but has also expressed frustration about the level of obsession among her friends. DD listens to lots of different kinds of music though and a lot of her friends just went straight from the Disney musicals to TS with no side journeys and I get why this is annoying. It feels brainless. Not because TS is bad but because she's the biggest pop star in the world and "everyone likes her" and it feels like a substitute for developing your own tastes and interests. But I think the world is sort of set up to encourage kids to think this way -- so much of kids' media is about telling kids "this is what you should like now" instead of just exposing kids to different things and seeing what they enjoy.

I like TS fine but I do sometimes feel like discussion of her blots out everything else. I think this is why these threads devolve into sniping where some people are criticizing Swift and then the Swifties come in to refute every criticism. It's because of the expectation that "everyone" has to like her and also like everything about her. You aren't allowed to say "I like some of her music but I find her presence at NFL games annoying" or "I think TTPD is great but hated everything before it" or "I really liked her music when I was younger but it just doesn't speak to me anymore." If you say any of these things you will immediately have someone jumping on you and saying your qualified fandom is wrong and misogynistic. But I think those are all reasonable comments and I think if you made them about pretty much anyone else they would go unremarked upon. But with Swift they will be refuted. Why? It's just an opinion.

I think if you were to look at some of these threads, you will find many comments that people don’t respond to or take offense to. Even people who don’t like or say negative things about her. The things that I see being commented on and browbeaten are 3 variations on a theme I don’t see that about other artists:

1 is Taylor’s music sucks, and that her fans are just too stupid to know it. And then they will inevitably talk about all the cool artists that they like. And then I guess they’re just “countercultural” or something for not liking Taylor (Yes, someone up there actually used this term).

Gee I wonder why people would take offense to that or maybe take the time to respond to it? It’s condescending as hell.

2 is Very similar, but we don’t actually like her music, we are just being marketed to, and we only think we like her music. Fans are just too stupid to realize this, but they see the light thank goodness.

3 also similar is no, her music is good, it’s just that she has nothing to do with it and I guess it’s like 4 white males behind the curtains like the Wizard of Oz doing it all and she is just the brand. This one is my favorite because I love to think about The National’s Aaron Dessner in his kitchen in his flannel shirt penning the lyrics to So High School.

With other artists if people don’t like them they tend not to start 100 threads on them and berate their fans. I’m not big into Ed Sheeran and I don’t really understand why anyone would go to a concert, but when I found out a friend of mine was going, I didn’t spend a lot of time pondering why the hell would you do that, and run off to DCUM and start threads bashing Ed and his fans.

Like With anything, I’m sure in real life This would be much more nuanced and pleasant conversation and back-and-forth. It’s just the Internet everything just devolved. Seriously don’t know if most of my friends even like Taylor Swift or not.

I think you are taking all of this very hard.

1. If you like her music,t hat is fine, but the overwhelming attitude of “best artist ever’ that proliferates from Taylor fans is just not true for everyone. Taylor fans often refuse to allow any criticism of her. Being secure in your opinion doesn’t mean taking others ideas down. It means being ok with saying she is my favorite artist without telling everyone else what to think. Everyone makes fun of my favorite band and igaf- it doesn’t change how or why I like them, but Swifties need to be the majority in the opinion of her and I don’t understand it.

2. You can like her music, but her GREATNESS and most of her money does come from marketing. That doesn’t mean you shouldn’t like her or that she doesn’t put out some decent songs, but it does mean that her rise to fame takes in many many factors. Particularly, the online presence she has built with her fans from the age of 12 has kept her fans loyal and good strong money makers for her. Her greatness doesnt lie in her music because music is personal taste. Her greatness is her marketing and her brand. Again, why does this matter, if you like and respect her narrative, you are free to pay to play and go to concerts. It doesn’t make you stupid, it just means you bought into the entire package. Why do YOU see this as something that is wrong?

3. She doesn’t have a live band, definitely relies on drum tracks and vocal backing and other devices to enhance her music. Many pop artist do, it is okay. Why do you feel the need to ascribe all of this to her, rather than realizing she follows the normal pop song trajectory of having drum lines etc?

It is okay to have adn consume social media from a pop star, have help making songs and still like the artist and her story.

That doesn’t mean I do and pointing out those things, shouldn’t ’change your thoughts on your favorite star UNLESS you start to see it too and it starts to bother you. A

People and do say tons of crap about my favorite band, my friends and family all roll their eyes at me, but they have a lot of personal meaning to me so it doesn’t rally bother me, nor do I need to point out to them all the good parts I enjoy. Live and let live and enjoy what you like. If people criticize it is okay.

1) Strawman. I think most Swift fans on here are fine with her not being other people's favorite artists. Again, it is the ignorance in the criticisms that people have an issue with.
2) There are hints of dismissiveness here towards fans. Swifties understand they have a parasocial relationship and that one of her biggest draws is her 'lore' and how she puts it all out there to them. They identify strongly with the lyrics/songs/themes. Maybe not the guitar riffs and that is ok.
3) What do you mean she doesn't have a live band? She does and most of the members have been with her for at least a decade, starting with Paul. But maybe you mean something else by live band?

DP. She uses a combination of live and backing tracks, including some vocal backing tracks. That’s probably what PP was saying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m curious as to what TS has done that’s unprecedented. This seems to be a claim by a lot of Swifties. There’s this notion that she is uniquely successful, influential, etc.

It’s not record sales. Among artists that started in the 2000s, Rihanna beats her. If you take Eminem (1999 start), he does too.

It’s not cultural impact. Madonna and MJ were enormous in their heyday.

It’s not impact on the music industry. The Beatles arguably began the notion of the rock band, had the first concept album, first major merchandising contracts, first stadium tour.

So what is it?

I disagree on cultural impact. A couple of months ago my husband and I who are both in our late 40s were telling our daughters about the night Michael Jackson first performed the moonwalk. And what a different time it was because the next day all of our classmates and teachers were talking about it.

It’s just so much harder in today’s pop cultural landscape, with kids maybe looking at TikTok and having their own streaming profile, and parents being on a totally different social media platform and a totally different streaming profile. We are all watching different shows, listening to different music more on our own little devices.

You can get on a plane and watch whatever you want, versus years ago it was one movie being shown. So I think it’s not just Taylor but the general landscape, it’s kind of crazy all the generations seem to know her and how much attention she gets.

Taylor’s vinyl album sales are also pretty insane for this day and age. Yes 30 years ago you would not have blinked, but the fact that there are so many young kids actually buying vinyl records because of her is pretty impressive.

Clearly there’s lots of other artists and pop culture figures who’ve had a huge impact and maybe even the same or similar or more, but she is definitely up there with them.

Vinyl sales went up before she started to really hit it big. Yes, she has had good vinyl sales, but part of that is because she puts out so many editions of her albums.

I think of her as a contemporary version of Madonna or another diva. I simply don’t see where she’s breaking new ground.

I love Madonna, and have been to some of her concerts. I just don’t see people talking about or reacting to Madonna concerts the same way they react to Taylor’s. The Eras tour seems a little unprecedented to me. Of course other artists have had hugely successful tours, I’m not trying to say they haven’t, but I guess I just don’t understand what we’re arguing about. Taylor is big and popular. I don’t understand why that’s controversial or even subjective.

Madonna was bigger vs TS back in the day.

This thread has me thinking hard about Madonna in a way I haven't in a while. I absolutely think she was at least as big back in the early 90s as Swift is now. Potentially more because the culture was less splintered then. I do think they are both highly impactful artists who will leave lasting legacies (Swift is operating within Madonna's legacy now just as Madonna operated within a legacy paved by people like Cher and Donna Summer before her). I do think their legacies will be different though and I don't think either of their legacies will be primarily about the music. Both are and were performers on another level where their lives are a form of performance art that is tied inextricably to their onstage personas and their music. Both also embraced commercialism to a high degree while also kind of claiming to be above it or doing something beyond marketing. The parallels are really strong. I do think Madonna's Blond Ambition tour was pretty on par with the Eras tour in terms of cultural impact and global success. If you weren't alive at that time you can't understand how influential and ever present Madonna felt at the time. Though culture and media have changed a lot since then the cultural obsession with Taylor now feels similar to how Madonna was viewed then.

There are difference though. The most obvious to me is that Madonna unlike Taylor was NOT a musical act embraced across generational and cultural divides. Older people and more conservative people HATED Madonna. She was everything that was wrong with the culture. She used Catholic iconography in songs and videos featuring masturbation and teen sex and pregnancy. She released a book about fetishism including bondage and doms and threesomes. And worst of all: teens and preteens loved her music. Yup you had little 10 and 11 year old girls (including me) bopping around to Like a Virgin and Papa Don't Preach. And their parents absolutely hated it.

Today moms take their daughters to Taylor's concerts and dad's talk about what a great role model she is. Even though many of her costumes actually do reference classic Madonna costumes (in particular the bustiers which are derivative of several costumes madonna wore on both her Blonde Ambition and Girlie Show tours) they are intentionally pretty chaste and inoffensive. While she sings about relationships and breakups and occasionally swears in her lyrics it's all well within cultural propriety and you'd have to be an extreme prude and just a killjoy to argue that she's pushing the envelope with pretty much any of her music. She never sings about sex. And while per offstage persona is a bit less perfectly curated for a wide audience she's still careful -- the most scandalous thing you'll ever catch her doing is enjoying an alcoholic beverage with friends or posing for an excessive number of selfies at her birthday party.

I think it's very cool that Swift is something kids and parents can bond over without it being complicated. I also don't think you need shock value and offensiveness to make good art. I also think parents today are on average more willing to meet their kids where they are at when it comes to art and culture though I think sometimes the kids don't like that and want something that is just theirs. And I do wonder if that will mitigate how much of a change agent Taylor winds up being. I think it's hard to break new ground if you never offend anyone. I guess she offends Donald Trump by endorsing Harris and there are people in the GOP who don't like her political views. But there's nothing in her *music* for them to object to. She's pretty apolitical as a musician.

That might be why she feels bland to those of us who grew up in the 80s and 90s. Taylor's music is pretty intentionally broadly appealing. But when I was young even if you were the most successful pop star on the planet and starring in Pepsi ads and winning awards and turning ever album double platinum you were still sort of supposed to be thumbing your nose at The Man. And Taylor is The Man (and yes I am familiar with her song "If I was a Man").