Tell me about St Andrews in Scotland

[Anonymous]

Hey there! I'm the current parent with an "agenda" mentioned in the post you just quoted. According to them I am in the midst of an entitled American-style tantrum. We are actually a nice, low-key family that doesn't make waves at schools. We also don't require smoothie bars and think dorm food is fine. In fact, we really like St Andrews. But- St Andrews has been a mixed bag for us. In our case- undiagnosed covid during 2021, leading to long covid, leading to bad grades because it was too late to drop classes at the time this was happening, was a huge stumbling block that was not forgiven by the University. I have had all manner of snide remarks hurled at me for this unfortunate situation and it's a real eye opener. It has been truly disappointing the school was not willing to be more flexible. If our student had been enrolled stateside, we would have just jumped in the car to bring them home. Health situation would have been treated sooner, crisis averted. Despite the amount of recruiting they do here, St Andrews hasn't been flexible for us in this situation even though it was exacerbated by being an international student.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It is a good conversation, but one to have before one’s student goes to ANY university.

Students in C’ville have had to make that exact same decision this year (i.e., because all the rescue units were tied up on other calls) and in past years.

Charlottesville-Albemarle Rescue Squad is heavily dependent on volunteers, covers most of the county and city, and it has a finite set of ambulance/rescue units, not all of which are staffed at a given moment. This situation is common in many parts of the US.

I live there and have never heard or read about an ambulance shortage. In fact, the stories are usually the opposite and ambulance services get 5 star ratings here on social media. https://dailyprogress.com/news/local/despite-challenges-cars-volunteer-staffed-ambulances-still-come-when-called/article_4008fa71-d189-599e-b982-f1d11436ef59.html

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hey there! I'm the current parent with an "agenda" mentioned in the post you just quoted. According to them I am in the midst of an entitled American-style tantrum. We are actually a nice, low-key family that doesn't make waves at schools. We also don't require smoothie bars and think dorm food is fine. In fact, we really like St Andrews. But- St Andrews has been a mixed bag for us. In our case- undiagnosed covid during 2021, leading to long covid, leading to bad grades because it was too late to drop classes at the time this was happening, was a huge stumbling block that was not forgiven by the University. I have had all manner of snide remarks hurled at me for this unfortunate situation and it's a real eye opener. It has been truly disappointing the school was not willing to be more flexible. If our student had been enrolled stateside, we would have just jumped in the car to bring them home. Health situation would have been treated sooner, crisis averted. Despite the amount of recruiting they do here, St Andrews hasn't been flexible for us in this situation even though it was exacerbated by being an international student.

But the British universities hand out free (NHS) boxes of tests to the students - certainly in 2021. That's how my oxford kid found out he had it. And then he was asymptomatic for the next week but still was confined to his dorm room until he could show several days of testing negative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Locally, UVa A&S is quite rigid about the “must graduate or leave after 4 years” rule. They do not make exceptions for mid-term illnesses, for example.

A big difference is that UVA, and many American Universities, offer summer classes, making it easier to add credits in case you fall behind

Only a small number of summer classes offered at UVa, and very very few upperclass courses on offer. It is only of trivial help. I know several who started at UVa, but their eventual degree was GMU because they could not finish UVa in the 4 years and had to transfer.

All false:

1) UVA offers over 1,000 summer programs. You can google this. UVA also accepts summer course credit from even - gasp! - community colleges.

2) UVA has VERY HIGH retention and graduation rates. I've never heard of a student leaving because they couldn't finish at the College of Arts & Sciences in 8 semesters. And you can't get an "eventual degree" from GMU over just a semester or two late at UVA. What this student did (if the story is true, which I don't think it is) was TRANSFER to GMU - hence the degree was given from that school.

3) Yes, the College of Arts and Sciences tries to get students to graduate in 8 semesters because it is a) public (and those resources are needed for new students) and b) a delay messes up UVA's very high graduation rate. The 8 semester guideline has developed because Arts & Sciences has a gen ed requirement. The other UVA Colleges do not do this. This is all on the College's webpage so there is no confusion about the guidelines when applying.

4) The College of Arts & Science's world language requirement can be met by study abroad programs.

4) Not only can the UVA student take classes during the summer but the page on this issue on UVA's website says that courses can be made up in J-term and also at UVA-Wise, which also offers many summer classes.

5) The Dean can grant a waiver of this rule at any time. No hardship should ensue. The waiver is mentioned in the Arts & Sciences website.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey there! I'm the current parent with an "agenda" mentioned in the post you just quoted. According to them I am in the midst of an entitled American-style tantrum. We are actually a nice, low-key family that doesn't make waves at schools. We also don't require smoothie bars and think dorm food is fine. In fact, we really like St Andrews. But- St Andrews has been a mixed bag for us. In our case- undiagnosed covid during 2021, leading to long covid, leading to bad grades because it was too late to drop classes at the time this was happening, was a huge stumbling block that was not forgiven by the University. I have had all manner of snide remarks hurled at me for this unfortunate situation and it's a real eye opener. It has been truly disappointing the school was not willing to be more flexible. If our student had been enrolled stateside, we would have just jumped in the car to bring them home. Health situation would have been treated sooner, crisis averted. Despite the amount of recruiting they do here, St Andrews hasn't been flexible for us in this situation even though it was exacerbated by being an international student.

But the British universities hand out free (NHS) boxes of tests to the students - certainly in 2021. That's how my oxford kid found out he had it. And then he was asymptomatic for the next week but still was confined to his dorm room until he could show several days of testing negative.

Remember false negatives? Remember difficulty getting flights? It was a mess. If it wasn’t a mess, then there wouldn’t be a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Locally, UVa A&S is quite rigid about the “must graduate or leave after 4 years” rule. They do not make exceptions for mid-term illnesses, for example.

A big difference is that UVA, and many American Universities, offer summer classes, making it easier to add credits in case you fall behind

Only a small number of summer classes offered at UVa, and very very few upperclass courses on offer. It is only of trivial help. I know several who started at UVa, but their eventual degree was GMU because they could not finish UVa in the 4 years and had to transfer.

All false:

1) UVA offers over 1,000 summer programs. You can google this. UVA also accepts summer course credit from even - gasp! - community colleges.

2) UVA has VERY HIGH retention and graduation rates. I've never heard of a student leaving because they couldn't finish at the College of Arts & Sciences in 8 semesters. And you can't get an "eventual degree" from GMU over just a semester or two late at UVA. What this student did (if the story is true, which I don't think it is) was TRANSFER to GMU - hence the degree was given from that school.

3) Yes, the College of Arts and Sciences tries to get students to graduate in 8 semesters because it is a) public (and those resources are needed for new students) and b) a delay messes up UVA's very high graduation rate. The 8 semester guideline has developed because Arts & Sciences has a gen ed requirement. The other UVA Colleges do not do this. This is all on the College's webpage so there is no confusion about the guidelines when applying.

4) The College of Arts & Science's world language requirement can be met by study abroad programs.

4) Not only can the UVA student take classes during the summer but the page on this issue on UVA's website says that courses can be made up in J-term and also at UVA-Wise, which also offers many summer classes.

5) The Dean can grant a waiver of this rule at any time. No hardship should ensue. The waiver is mentioned in the Arts & Sciences website.

Thank you for making me feel like I’m not crazy. This is the reason things fell apart for my student- hard time catching up for lost credits. I think there’s someone from the St Andrew’s academic appeals board in here playing devil’s advocate. You are correct- it is a lot easier to take summer classes stateside than it is in St. Andrews, as they do not offer any summer classes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is there has an ADHD diagnosis and is thriving. DC does not have the same accommodations as here and is still doing fine. Yes DC has to bring a 90- day plus prescription of his meds bc we have not wanted to try to navigate the UK socialized medical system and the meds are covered under our US insurance. But DC LOVES the academics and social life. For a kid with ADHD being able to specialize and take classes in the subjects they are interested in and nothing else and just deep dive is Nirvana!

One of the PP's seems to have a very specific agenda about what happened to their child who sounds like they struggled during Covid and did not inform the university properly and now the parent is now having a typical US-style entitled tantrum.

The Brits don't offer the services we do - Fro instance there is not a smoothie bar and a sushi station on the eating plan. They eat in halls cafeteria style or (horrors!) cook for themselves! In fact there are kids on my kid's hall who self-cater - meaning they cook all their own meals. There are posh kids but there are also working class kids. Our child has friends from all over the world, first class professors, and travels all over Europe on breaks. As has been said before, don't expect handholding at any UK university. But I think that is a good thing. I want my 18-22 year old kid to start standing on their own two feet and self-advocating.

Also it is literally half the price of a private US university. Even with airfare.

C’mon, you know that’s not true.

“2023-24 GBP Sterling US Dollars
Tuition fees (actual tuition fees table) 26,547 35,838
Catered residence fees/Rent, utilities, food 10,387 14,022
Travel - based on two trips per annum 2,000 2,700
Computer equipment, books, etc. 1,200 1,620
Personal, living expenses (37 weeks) 3,330 4,496

Total £43,464 $58,676


If you are an entrant student you are eligible to add the following charges to your cost of attendance, if you wish:

GBP Sterling US Dollars
Visa 363 490
Immigration Health Surcharge 2,115 2,855
Total £2,478 $3,345


It’s ~62000USD a year. No bargain.

I'm not the original poster, but I note that St Andrews was considerably cheaper than any of the schools (not counting the merit aid given by some schools) that my child was interested in attending. Every US university our child applied to had a sticker price of over 60K for tuition alone, and, while St Andrews tuition has risen from 20.5k pounds to over 26k pounds for 2023-24, tuition for students matriculating before 2024 was fixed for the duration of study. Depending on college lists, 1/2 price might not have been too far off for them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hey there! I'm the current parent with an "agenda" mentioned in the post you just quoted. According to them I am in the midst of an entitled American-style tantrum. We are actually a nice, low-key family that doesn't make waves at schools. We also don't require smoothie bars and think dorm food is fine. In fact, we really like St Andrews. But- St Andrews has been a mixed bag for us. In our case- undiagnosed covid during 2021, leading to long covid, leading to bad grades because it was too late to drop classes at the time this was happening, was a huge stumbling block that was not forgiven by the University. I have had all manner of snide remarks hurled at me for this unfortunate situation and it's a real eye opener. It has been truly disappointing the school was not willing to be more flexible. If our student had been enrolled stateside, we would have just jumped in the car to bring them home. Health situation would have been treated sooner, crisis averted. Despite the amount of recruiting they do here, St Andrews hasn't been flexible for us in this situation even though it was exacerbated by being an international student.

But the British universities hand out free (NHS) boxes of tests to the students - certainly in 2021. That's how my oxford kid found out he had it. And then he was asymptomatic for the next week but still was confined to his dorm room until he could show several days of testing negative.

Remember false negatives? Remember difficulty getting flights? It was a mess. If it wasn’t a mess, then there wouldn’t be a problem.

you are avoiding the question. Students in Britain have BOXES of free tests. My DD got in the habit of taking hers daily - that's how she found out she was positive. You said "undiagnosed covid in 2021". I don't understand. It wasn't a mess in 2021. Yes, in 2020.

[Anonymous]

I am not avoiding the question, I am just not bending over backwards to win the approval of an internet stranger. Student enrolled in fall of 2020. Covid in spring 2021 wasn’t diagnosed as Covid. False negative tests. Sick and locked down in a single room, believed they had a a possible flu, mono didn’t know. Slept through classes and fell behind. Couldn’t fly home sick. Long Covid diagnosed much later over summer break. Didn’t do well in classes during any of this time. Did not take appropriate steps at the time to get excused, because didn’t know it was Covid, and was a young, brand new, sick college student locked down alone in single dorm room on an empty floor. Didn’t reach out appropriately because was new, sick and alone. The University did not retroactively excuse three failed classes from that time. The University acted according to their policies to terminate our student and said it wouldn’t be fair to others to give them any special consideration. That is why it didn’t work out for us there.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My kid is there has an ADHD diagnosis and is thriving. DC does not have the same accommodations as here and is still doing fine. Yes DC has to bring a 90- day plus prescription of his meds bc we have not wanted to try to navigate the UK socialized medical system and the meds are covered under our US insurance. But DC LOVES the academics and social life. For a kid with ADHD being able to specialize and take classes in the subjects they are interested in and nothing else and just deep dive is Nirvana!

One of the PP's seems to have a very specific agenda about what happened to their child who sounds like they struggled during Covid and did not inform the university properly and now the parent is now having a typical US-style entitled tantrum.

The Brits don't offer the services we do - Fro instance there is not a smoothie bar and a sushi station on the eating plan. They eat in halls cafeteria style or (horrors!) cook for themselves! In fact there are kids on my kid's hall who self-cater - meaning they cook all their own meals. There are posh kids but there are also working class kids. Our child has friends from all over the world, first class professors, and travels all over Europe on breaks. As has been said before, don't expect handholding at any UK university. But I think that is a good thing. I want my 18-22 year old kid to start standing on their own two feet and self-advocating.

Also it is literally half the price of a private US university. Even with airfare.

C’mon, you know that’s not true.

“2023-24 GBP Sterling US Dollars
Tuition fees (actual tuition fees table) 26,547 35,838
Catered residence fees/Rent, utilities, food 10,387 14,022
Travel - based on two trips per annum 2,000 2,700
Computer equipment, books, etc. 1,200 1,620
Personal, living expenses (37 weeks) 3,330 4,496

Total £43,464 $58,676


If you are an entrant student you are eligible to add the following charges to your cost of attendance, if you wish:

GBP Sterling US Dollars
Visa 363 490
Immigration Health Surcharge 2,115 2,855
Total £2,478 $3,345


It’s ~62000USD a year. No bargain.

I'm not the original poster, but I note that St Andrews was considerably cheaper than any of the schools (not counting the merit aid given by some schools) that my child was interested in attending. Every US university our child applied to had a sticker price of over 60K for tuition alone, and, while St Andrews tuition has risen from 20.5k pounds to over 26k pounds for 2023-24, tuition for students matriculating before 2024 was fixed for the duration of study. Depending on college lists, 1/2 price might not have been too far off for them.

But that's your situation and your problem. But you are the abberation. Yes, there are Universities and SLACs now over $90K a year in the U.S. But no one says you have to apply to them. Your analysis is relevant only to your situation because you let your kid apply to only the most expensive schools in the US. So, yes, perhaps to you it looks like St. Andrews is "half" (no school is yet over $100K; none is $126K), but it isn't compared to those of us spending far less for college in the U.S. The $62K figure above is correct and it allows for only two round-trip flights a year. My Oxbridge kid does three or four (remember there are three terms with very long breaks in-between).

[Anonymous]

Ugh, I wish that insufferable “stoxbridge” booster would sod off

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:St Andrews has a strange reputation in the UK. I grew up in Scotland and went to a strong academic high school. I don’t know anyone from my school who applied there. The top students tried for Oxbridge, Edinburgh or Imperial Collage. That said, I had an old English friend who was very excited to go there. It’s almost as if it was outside the Scottish university system, and was seen as a place for English ‘Oxbridge rejects’ (public - in the British sense - school kids who couldn’t get into Oxbridge and who applied to other universities deemed prestigious). The fact that it was in this category puts amongst a strong peer group (Durham, Bristol, etc). Take this with a large pinch of salt, as I left high school 30 years ago, and it’s possible that it’s reputation has improved significantly, but I would still say that it’s seen in the UK as a significant step down from Oxford and Cambridge (everywhere is in reputation terms), and in Scotland as below Edinburgh, but it’s seen as a top 10 uni.

I'm from the UK and agree with all of this, except that I wouldn't say it's seen as a top 10 uni. It's not Russell Group and certainly in my school, it was somewhere you would go if you couldn't get into a Russell Group uni. I'm baffled by any ranking that puts it at the top! For an American, though, probably it's an advantage that people have heard of it as I sense that more people know it than know say, Bristol University.

+1 another Brit here and also agree. St. Andrews was considered a bit of a joke for the not very bright "hooray henrys" coming from posh schools and wealthy families but not really having a lot of brain cells. Compounded by William Windsor's attendance but then that also made it very popular...so

I lived in the UK for many years. Completely agree. There are many more that are considered better unis…. UCL, Durham, even Bath, Warwick, are considered better. But Americans have never heard of them so if a kid can’t get into Oxbridge or LSE, it’s St Andrews. Which is the equivalent of Penn State honestly in that is has name recognition by the average homosapien, but that doesn’t mean its a good education.

+100

+2.
this is the impression I have been given. "Hooray Henrys" from posh schools and wealthy families is accurate, and exactly who I know from there! Cocky little buggers. No thanks.

[Anonymous]

Why do you guys care?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, I wish that insufferable “stoxbridge” booster would sod off

+1. They don't understand that the ratings that they keep citing to are from tabloids that no one in England pays attention to

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Ugh, I wish that insufferable “stoxbridge” booster would sod off

They are mirroring the mindset of the administration our student was up against when in crisis at St Andrews. “What about this. What about that. Why not this. Why not that. You didn’t follow policy. Doctor’s letters? Submitted too late. You are having a tantrum.” No- just happened to be a sick young adult during a global pandemic, not much else we can say. It will be a blessing that our student finishes up at a large university in the states.