Asian American student with 1590 SAT score blames affirmative action for rejections from 6 colleges

[Anonymous]

1) The cost of the lottery ticket is higher for Asian American kids than Black kids. I get that at some point admissions is a lottery for the most selective schools, but you cannot get around the fact that the floor of SAT scores is much lower for Black and Hispanic students than Asian ones.
2) I am not confident that AOs appreciate and take into account the huge differences within the Asian American community with regard to income and parent education.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:1) The cost of the lottery ticket is higher for Asian American kids than Black kids. I get that at some point admissions is a lottery for the most selective schools, but you cannot get around the fact that the floor of SAT scores is much lower for Black and Hispanic students than Asian ones.
2) I am not confident that AOs appreciate and take into account the huge differences within the Asian American community with regard to income and parent education.

Honest question, why aren't you screaming from the rooftops about the mostly-white legacy students who make up 30% or so of the incoming classes of these universities, compared to the less than 5% of black kids? You know that it's much more likely one of those kids "stole" the spot others think they are entitled to. How much does *their* lottery ticket cost?

[Anonymous]

It must be really exhausting being a person of Asian descent if you want to get into medicine. You clearly *must* be that much better than basically all races. The MCAT and gpas of med school matriculants speak for themselves:



On the flip side, this means I'll go out of my way from now on to go to Asian doctors only, because they clearly must be wayyyyy better than the average because of their race of they want a shot.

Maybe we should bring affirmative action lawsuits to multibillion dollar industries like professional sports that clearly don't have enough diversity because they draft players based on skill and not diversity. How many Asian and Hispanic players can you name in the NBA or NFL. Those leagues are allowed to ignore diversity in admissions because they draft based on skills alone. If they're allowed, so should universities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) The cost of the lottery ticket is higher for Asian American kids than Black kids. I get that at some point admissions is a lottery for the most selective schools, but you cannot get around the fact that the floor of SAT scores is much lower for Black and Hispanic students than Asian ones.
2) I am not confident that AOs appreciate and take into account the huge differences within the Asian American community with regard to income and parent education.

Honest question, why aren't you screaming from the rooftops about the mostly-white legacy students who make up 30% or so of the incoming classes of these universities, compared to the less than 5% of black kids? You know that it's much more likely one of those kids "stole" the spot others think they are entitled to. How much does *their* lottery ticket cost?

There's no denying that. I think that legacy should end. It's not mutually exclusive to end legacy and insist that the bar to entry be the same regardless of race.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Test scores alone are not highly indicative of a successful future college student. It makes no sense to force a college to admit students based on this criteria. I don’t know why we put so much weight upon them. All they really do is generically show relative strengths and weaknesses among high schools.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/02/19/study-finds-little-difference-academic-success-students-who-do-and-dont-submit-sat#:~:text=The%20study%20confirms%20that%20high,who%20will%20succeed%20in%20college.%22

I keep seeing this claim made but there are decades of research studies on this topic and many show that SAT scores are a very strong predictor of not only college grades but future career success as well.

+1 which is why MIT went back to requiring SAT scores.

MIT is only ONE T25 school. Georgetown still requires the SAT since it's not in the common app.

How about HYPS and the other 1,800+ who are test optional? How about the SAT/ACT going digital to even stay relevant?

I think you've missed the test optional trend. Get used to it. It is here to stay.

It is here to stay because more and more schools want to increase DEI. Getting rid of SAT scores is one way to do that. Why not just get rid of GPAs since there is so much grade inflation and grading is als
o pretty subjective?

GPA - and rigor- over 4 years is a better indicator of college success (at least freshman year) than one 3-hour test.

The AOs know this.

The AOs are failures in life. If they weren't, they wouldn't be stuck in an admissions office. They have low level degrees in xyz studies type areas and have their own personal social agendas to fulfill. I know this because I have the misfortune of interacting with many of them. Professors are not happy about the trajectory of admissions decisions over the past decade

The distain for people who work in education across this forum is so sad. If these failures are picking the classes, why would you want to be part of them? They suck at life, but somehow are able to put together talented cohorts year after year?

+1

Just sour grapes from the PP.

+1

Not to mention, how much "transparency" does China have?? GTFOH.

It's really a huge shame that the US has less transparency than even China when it comes to college admission. seriously WTF

Once again, if China is so awesome, you are free to go there and experience this awesome system.

So you agree that US college admission system is less transparent than even China.

Do you agree with every parts of every US systems. Is that why you are here?

I'm not sure about you, but I think there are rooms to make improvements in many arears in this country.

I care about this country where my kids were born, so unlike you I don't just leave just because I you don't like something.

I like to see improvements and progress.

I was born here, no plans to leave. I do NOT think the Western European, china, India ways of tracking kids at an early age is a better system. So I will fight to not change to that.

The main problem with our current system appears to be many feel "entitled" to an elite university experience because they "worked so hard and got high test scores over 12 years". The blinders are on and they cannot recognize there are not enough spaces for everyone who is highly qualified. And somehow refuse to recognize this and search for great Target and safety schools. Nobody is saying you cannot get an education. You can---most likely at a 25-50 ranked school---still excellent choice and it will not hold your kid back at all, unless they come from an area of entitlement/privilege that they are too good for those schools.

Reaches are just that---reaches for every DAMN person who applies, unless you are an athlete or kid of a president/last name of Bezos or gates/etc. So reach for the stars, but have a good plan in place for if that doesn't work. Because statistically, it will not work out.
It seems many entitled kids this is the first time money and privilege has not bought them everything they wanted. And they cannot seem to recognize their extreme privilege over most of the other kids in the US

The main problem with our current system is that there's no clear rules, no transparency, and they even discriminate based on race.

There are fairly clear rules. What there is not and will never be is a formula, because it's a holistic process. Do the best you can academically, test and submit if you want, be well rounded but ideally a bit pointy and really delve into an area with deep interest for ECs and then apply to a broad range of schools (reach, target and safety). And accept the fact that as long as there are more kids applying to each of the T25 schools than spaces, and most are applying to many of those T25, that all are a REACH for nearly everyone. So if you get rejected don't take it personally and move on. These are highly rejective schools and reject all but 5-10% of the applicants. However, majority (likely 90% of those rejected at a minimum) are "qualified and would make good members of the freshman class of 20XY), despite that most will not make it.
Accept that schools are looking for diversity in many areas (including majors, M/F, geography, income, ECs/sports/areas of interest outside your major including what you volunteer with etc).

But there will never be a you get X+ SAT and y+ gpa and z+ number of APs with all 5s and you are guaranteed a spot. You know what the criteria is. You just do NOT like the fact that not everyone with a 1580+ is going to gain admission to a T25 school. So instead of focusing and complaining "it's not fair", focus on making your kid a better person, have them find a real EC/Volunteering that they love and would do even if it was not needed for college, help them be genuinely an exciting person who wants to make the world a better place, etc. And realize that yes, Kid A may have gotten admission because of their essay or a personal experience that they wrote about and the AO who read it "felt something" and put it into the "accepted" pile.
Someone smart enough to win a lottery ticket for T25 schools should also be smart enough to understand it's not guaranteed and that they will still do exceedingly well in life, and not any worse because of where they attend college. This is 99.999% driven by the adults, not the kids. Kids think this way when from 2nd grade onwards they have 10to 15 hours of extra tutoring just to get ahead, when kid is already A student and most advanced in their class. When their MS friends are going to movies or hanging out with friends on Fri/sat, they are pushed to do advanced math/foreign language/etc. They are pushed to 2-3 grade levels ahead in math whether they want to or not, they are constantly pushed to take APs starting in 9th grade and as many as possible each year to just get ahead and into best colleges. So yes, they often grow to view themselves as a failure in their parent's eyes if they don't have a 100 in every class and only get into #26 and #32 when college application season ends. Those kids have done nothing except be prepped for this all their lives. However, there is a difference between "valuing education" and raising a curious, smart individual who is self motivated, not out of fear of failing the parents.

My kid is asian, works hard, but we allowed them to pick activities and advanced courses that interested them. Made HS a happier experience and ultimately made my kid a great person who everyone loves and who is just a nice friendly helpful individual who others love being around. My kid tried for 3 T30 schools, rejected at 2 and WL at 1. Yes, they wished they had gotten into those, but they had an amazing list of great targets and safeties and got into ALL of them, with good merit (4 Targets in the 30-50 range, and highest safety in the 50-70 range). They have completed freshman year, doing well, loving it, loving the school and great group of friends. Their friends are all extremely smart, curious, genuinely great individuals who will excel in whatever they choose in life. Some even got into "higher ranked schools" and turned them down for fit (trust me---location was definately not the reason).
So yes, it would have been nice for my kid to go to one of those other 3 schools, but they are at an amazing school, they didn't "settle" as this was easily their 2nd choice from the first visit in terms of fit and just feel for the school. My kid is living life in the moment and giving it there all where they ended up---I have no doubts they will excel in their career and life after college---did not really give up anything by not getting into a T25--if anything I think they are having a slightly less stressed college experience, less competition and more collaborative experience and I think that is a good thing

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:1) The cost of the lottery ticket is higher for Asian American kids than Black kids. I get that at some point admissions is a lottery for the most selective schools, but you cannot get around the fact that the floor of SAT scores is much lower for Black and Hispanic students than Asian ones.
2) I am not confident that AOs appreciate and take into account the huge differences within the Asian American community with regard to income and parent education.

Honest question, why aren't you screaming from the rooftops about the mostly-white legacy students who make up 30% or so of the incoming classes of these universities, compared to the less than 5% of black kids? You know that it's much more likely one of those kids "stole" the spot others think they are entitled to. How much does *their* lottery ticket cost?

There's no denying that. I think that legacy should end. It's not mutually exclusive to end legacy and insist that the bar to entry be the same regardless of race.

It might not be mutually exclusive, but the cries about the legacy kids are a whisper, compared to *all this* about the very small percentage of black and brown kids getting into these schools. Let's all keep that in mind when we claim we're fighting against systemic racism.....

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Huge cultural chasm here. America does not have the same testing traditions you find in just about every other country in the world. Americans believe in never quitting more than they believe in winning. That's why footbalk teams that lose hard fought games get celebrated almost as though they won.

The difference is every other country in the world has clear rule and transparency.

Another difference is that America rewards persistence. Many other countries give you just one chance to measure up in life. Not so in the USA.

Test measures persistence. It's for 12 years of persistent education
Also they do reward persistence with sort of GPA together with Test

I don't care if you do GPA only Test only GPA + Test, GPA + Test + whatever.

The important thing is clear rule and transparency.

the only thing you are asking for is how much was spent on making sure those scores were achieved. that's it. and not an amount, a percentage of income. if a 400k family spends 40k and an 80k family spends 8k its the same type of leg up, it is.
I am so tired of test prep being a replacement for intelligence and capability.

Same for GPA, ECs, Essay, etc.
I think test score is at least most objective and fair, so that disadvantaged intelligent and capable students get chance to compete.

Standardized testing has racist origins in the U S (and was used to justify segregation in the military and schools)., is culturally biased ( "pre test" questions that were answered correctly by most blacks were thrown out), and today is more a reflection of household income , test prep, and superscoriing.

Not even close to objective.

Most of the 1,900 colleges that are now test optional will remain after the AA ruling.

Good.

+1

Those arguing against this are just upset their kid has "lost their advantage" of privilege. Also, they apparently do not understand the numbers---there are simply many more kids with 1400/1450+ SAT and "qualified for elite schools" than there are spots. So most will be rejected. Nobody is entitled to a spot at an elite school, nobody. Once you recognize that and plan with great "target schools" you will be happier. Focus on the goal---getting your degree and starting a career, which can be done at a school ranked #30

+1

There are good schools even from #31 through #200 or so.

People are obsessed with T25s.

Expectations for college admissions need to get reset.

OK, then tell that to the URM who apply to T25. Tell them they should aim lower T100 to T200. It fits them better.

First, plenty of URM never even think of applying to T25 because it's so outside of their world when their parents do not have college degrees and are struggling just to keep the lights on and food on the table. So the group of "qualified URMs" is already much much smaller than everyone else at a T25. And many of them do end attending "lower ranked schools"---they attend the local state U that has a 60%+ acceptance rate and will be affordable and an easy drive from home.

However, it is Harvard/Stanford/any T25 choice as to how they build their freshman class. They see value in a URM or lower income student with only a 1500 and it's their right to admit them. I tend to agree that kid getting a 1500 means more than your 1%er getting a 1580. That kid will work harder and contribute more to the university over 4 years, and if Harvard thinks that, they will offer them admissions. Fact is outside of athletes, nobody with just a 1200 is getting admission to Harvard. So stop arguing that your kid with a 1580 is "better than a kid with a 1450+"---the difference is only in your head. Harvard has concluded that "1450ish is the cutoff" or whatever level and from there they look at other factors. And yes, I'd like my kids to attend colleges that are diverse. If you want an all asian college, you can apply in India or china and achieve just that. I want diversity on all levels.

+1

-1 no one stated that they wanted all Asian Americans in the college. And you are racist, implying that Asian Americans should "go back to their country".

Not racist---married to an Asian American, so I intimately understand both systems, having had a spouse go thru both sides. They much prefer the US system and are grateful our kids are not going thru the other system. Just sick of the few posters who keep wishing our system was "like china and India"---those systems exist and if that is what you want, then yes you are free to send your kids there. The fact you want to send them to a US school indicates that yes, our system overall is a better system. There are many faults with the China/India/Much of Europe way of tracking kids at an early age. I hope we never do that in this country---I don't think it's beneficial.

But complaining it's not fair your 1580 kid got rejected from highly rejective schools is ridiculous. Fact is most kids get rejected. But yes there are plenty of excellent schools out there, so focus on ones your kid can get into, and apply to the Reaches and reach for the stars, if it happens great, but if not, your kid is not forced to attend school #4001---many other excellent choices, some even better than the T25s you are so hell-bent on attending.

Ah, got it. So because the US system is better we need to celebrate racism. Thanks for your excellent opinion that is certainly valid since you are "married to an Asian American"

Nope--you would be the racist if you think it's always about race why someone does not get in. For every "asian with a 1580" who is rejected there are also white students, URM who are also rejected with similar scores---Why? Because those schools reject 95% of their applicants. It's lottery, and your SAT score buys you a ticket, after that the score does not matter---the rest of your application does. You have no clue what the teacher recs, ECs, volunteering, difficult life events a kid experienced goes into the holistic evaluation--and why the school accepts who they do. But fact is many many bright highly qualified kids gets rejected, along with yours. The sheer fact you think suing is a good thing in this situation tells me about your privilege and entitlement issues.

But yes, most schools do not aim to be 100% asian even in the engineering schools. Do you have issues with engineering programs who strive for a M/F balance, thus admitting more females each year to get there? I for one think the world is a better place that we now have more women in engineering/CS/STEM areas if that is what they want to major in. Since 50 years ago, women largely did not go to college, did you/do you find issues with universities working to ensure they have a good M/F balance. Similarly, I think it's great if we help ensure lower incomes students who have not had the same privileges as my kid, to get a great college experience. I can recognize my privilege and realize that a kid with a 3.7 and 1450 from an underprivileged life/environemnt might be more appealing than my 1% kiddo. I can feel happy that kid is getting the experience---I didn't think of suing when my kid didn't get into their T25 schools---I realized it was a lottery and had a long list of targets and safeties that they got into they loved as well

No feeling that you may have justifies systemic racism against Asian applicants but thank you for sharing

Harvard is ~30% asian for the most recent class. Berkeley is ~40% asian students.
USA is less than 10% persons of asian decent. How is it systemic racism? Each school admits a higher population of Asians than exist in the US population.
Are you now going to argue that asians are "just smarter" than everyone else and thus deserve to attend Harvard at a higher rate?

There are so many reasons he did not get accepted and race is likely not it. Berkeley is test blind and does not do AA for over a decade. Fact is while he is a great candidate, Harvard acceptance rate is single digits. 9+ kids are rejected for every 1 that is accepted. 8 out of every 9 kids rejected is likely considered" highly qualified" for Harvard (and any other T25). Yet the school has to reject all 9, so the first is easy, they are "not qualified", the other 8 could easily get the coveted spot, so the difference comes down to ECs, volunteering, personal essays, teacher recommendations, etc. 9 kids out of 10 will be disappointed. You did not read the essays or Teacher recs or see the volunteering or ECs, etc. You have no way to know why the choice was made. And a lot of it may be preferences---the AO liked the kid's essay, or the kid had an intriguing volunteer situation where they seemed to be genuinely engaged vs most who are just doing what they think will get them into a top school. You really have no clue what it is---99.9999% chance that race is NOT the reason. And if it seems that way, it's much more likely that Harvard saw an outstanding person who is first gen, low income and they want to give them the opportunity of attending Harvard---race is likely just a byproduct for you to scream "racism" ---it's very likely the person was admitted for being lower income or grabbed the AO attention due to being low income and how the persevered thru their life struggles and are somehow still a great candidate. So yes, I guess you are "discriminated against" for growing up with privilege, but that is a really convoluted way of looking at things.

DP.. why does it matter what the Asian American population is compared to the % of total population? Since when does any institution have to reflect the overall population? The reason why Asian American population is higher in colleges is because they apply to college at a higher rate; they value education. Other groups don't, I guess.

I don't know if Asian Americans are "smarter", but they sure have higher stats.

And if you look at the stats in the Harvard case, a black student from a UMC with lower stats has a better chance of getting in compared to an Asian American student from a MC family with higher stats.

Do you think a middle class Asian American student really has more academic and opportunity than an UMC black student with two lawyer parents?

this. there was an op-ed in the nytimes recently making the case the affirmitive action needs to change from being race-based to being class-based. I think that makes a lot of sense (I'm south asian american).

Unfortunately in this country, it already is more "class-based". Those who complain will never be happy as long as their snowflake gets rejected at a highly rejective school.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Test scores alone are not highly indicative of a successful future college student. It makes no sense to force a college to admit students based on this criteria. I don’t know why we put so much weight upon them. All they really do is generically show relative strengths and weaknesses among high schools.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/02/19/study-finds-little-difference-academic-success-students-who-do-and-dont-submit-sat#:~:text=The%20study%20confirms%20that%20high,who%20will%20succeed%20in%20college.%22

I keep seeing this claim made but there are decades of research studies on this topic and many show that SAT scores are a very strong predictor of not only college grades but future career success as well.

+1 which is why MIT went back to requiring SAT scores.

MIT is only ONE T25 school. Georgetown still requires the SAT since it's not in the common app.

How about HYPS and the other 1,800+ who are test optional? How about the SAT/ACT going digital to even stay relevant?

I think you've missed the test optional trend. Get used to it. It is here to stay.

It is here to stay because more and more schools want to increase DEI. Getting rid of SAT scores is one way to do that. Why not just get rid of GPAs since there is so much grade inflation and grading is als
o pretty subjective?

GPA - and rigor- over 4 years is a better indicator of college success (at least freshman year) than one 3-hour test.

The AOs know this.

The AOs are failures in life. If they weren't, they wouldn't be stuck in an admissions office. They have low level degrees in xyz studies type areas and have their own personal social agendas to fulfill. I know this because I have the misfortune of interacting with many of them. Professors are not happy about the trajectory of admissions decisions over the past decade

The distain for people who work in education across this forum is so sad. If these failures are picking the classes, why would you want to be part of them? They suck at life, but somehow are able to put together talented cohorts year after year?

+1

Just sour grapes from the PP.

+1

Not to mention, how much "transparency" does China have?? GTFOH.

It's really a huge shame that the US has less transparency than even China when it comes to college admission. seriously WTF

Once again, if China is so awesome, you are free to go there and experience this awesome system.

So you agree that US college admission system is less transparent than even China.

Do you agree with every parts of every US systems. Is that why you are here?

I'm not sure about you, but I think there are rooms to make improvements in many arears in this country.

I care about this country where my kids were born, so unlike you I don't just leave just because I you don't like something.

I like to see improvements and progress.

I was born here, no plans to leave. I do NOT think the Western European, china, India ways of tracking kids at an early age is a better system. So I will fight to not change to that.

The main problem with our current system appears to be many feel "entitled" to an elite university experience because they "worked so hard and got high test scores over 12 years". The blinders are on and they cannot recognize there are not enough spaces for everyone who is highly qualified. And somehow refuse to recognize this and search for great Target and safety schools. Nobody is saying you cannot get an education. You can---most likely at a 25-50 ranked school---still excellent choice and it will not hold your kid back at all, unless they come from an area of entitlement/privilege that they are too good for those schools.

Reaches are just that---reaches for every DAMN person who applies, unless you are an athlete or kid of a president/last name of Bezos or gates/etc. So reach for the stars, but have a good plan in place for if that doesn't work. Because statistically, it will not work out.
It seems many entitled kids this is the first time money and privilege has not bought them everything they wanted. And they cannot seem to recognize their extreme privilege over most of the other kids in the US

The main problem with our current system is that there's no clear rules, no transparency, and they even discriminate based on race.

There are fairly clear rules. What there is not and will never be is a formula, because it's a holistic process. Do the best you can academically, test and submit if you want, be well rounded but ideally a bit pointy and really delve into an area with deep interest for ECs and then apply to a broad range of schools (reach, target and safety). And accept the fact that as long as there are more kids applying to each of the T25 schools than spaces, and most are applying to many of those T25, that all are a REACH for nearly everyone. So if you get rejected don't take it personally and move on. These are highly rejective schools and reject all but 5-10% of the applicants. However, majority (likely 90% of those rejected at a minimum) are "qualified and would make good members of the freshman class of 20XY), despite that most will not make it.
Accept that schools are looking for diversity in many areas (including majors, M/F, geography, income, ECs/sports/areas of interest outside your major including what you volunteer with etc).

But there will never be a you get X+ SAT and y+ gpa and z+ number of APs with all 5s and you are guaranteed a spot. You know what the criteria is. You just do NOT like the fact that not everyone with a 1580+ is going to gain admission to a T25 school. So instead of focusing and complaining "it's not fair", focus on making your kid a better person, have them find a real EC/Volunteering that they love and would do even if it was not needed for college, help them be genuinely an exciting person who wants to make the world a better place, etc. And realize that yes, Kid A may have gotten admission because of their essay or a personal experience that they wrote about and the AO who read it "felt something" and put it into the "accepted" pile.
Someone smart enough to win a lottery ticket for T25 schools should also be smart enough to understand it's not guaranteed and that they will still do exceedingly well in life, and not any worse because of where they attend college. This is 99.999% driven by the adults, not the kids. Kids think this way when from 2nd grade onwards they have 10to 15 hours of extra tutoring just to get ahead, when kid is already A student and most advanced in their class. When their MS friends are going to movies or hanging out with friends on Fri/sat, they are pushed to do advanced math/foreign language/etc. They are pushed to 2-3 grade levels ahead in math whether they want to or not, they are constantly pushed to take APs starting in 9th grade and as many as possible each year to just get ahead and into best colleges. So yes, they often grow to view themselves as a failure in their parent's eyes if they don't have a 100 in every class and only get into #26 and #32 when college application season ends. Those kids have done nothing except be prepped for this all their lives. However, there is a difference between "valuing education" and raising a curious, smart individual who is self motivated, not out of fear of failing the parents.

My kid is asian, works hard, but we allowed them to pick activities and advanced courses that interested them. Made HS a happier experience and ultimately made my kid a great person who everyone loves and who is just a nice friendly helpful individual who others love being around. My kid tried for 3 T30 schools, rejected at 2 and WL at 1. Yes, they wished they had gotten into those, but they had an amazing list of great targets and safeties and got into ALL of them, with good merit (4 Targets in the 30-50 range, and highest safety in the 50-70 range). They have completed freshman year, doing well, loving it, loving the school and great group of friends. Their friends are all extremely smart, curious, genuinely great individuals who will excel in whatever they choose in life. Some even got into "higher ranked schools" and turned them down for fit (trust me---location was definately not the reason).
So yes, it would have been nice for my kid to go to one of those other 3 schools, but they are at an amazing school, they didn't "settle" as this was easily their 2nd choice from the first visit in terms of fit and just feel for the school. My kid is living life in the moment and giving it there all where they ended up---I have no doubts they will excel in their career and life after college---did not really give up anything by not getting into a T25--if anything I think they are having a slightly less stressed college experience, less competition and more collaborative experience and I think that is a good thing

You sound like an awesome parent, raising an awesome kid! Thanks for this!

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So shocking how many support anti-asian hate.

They used to discriminate against Jews in exactly same way Harvard now does against Asians.

Can't knock em down based on merits, so you gotta attack their character and figure out ways less accomplished people get in (ahem race).

So, regardless of how you feel about the various posts, it seems silly to say that they used to discriminate against jews the same way Harvard does against Asians.

You do realize that when they discriminated against Jews that meant there were basically 0 zero Jews admitted to Harvard. If 20% - 30% of Harvard is Asian...how is that even remotely the same?

Let's make sure we get our outrage comparisons correct.

+1000

It's apples to oranges

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Anyone else get the feeling this board has been hijacked by someone trying to get us to fight with each other?

You mean like how Biden hijacked the supreme court case and filed the official president position as discrimination against asians is A-OK? Nobody needs to "hijack" anything to have a lot of people not want their own kids discriminated against to favor URMs

Real people (arguing both sides) aren't usually so nasty to one another, even on anonymous forums.

My white kids are not being DISCRIMINATED AGAINST by affirmative action. Touch grass.

+100

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Anyone else get the feeling this board has been hijacked by someone trying to get us to fight with each other?

You mean like how Biden hijacked the supreme court case and filed the official president position as discrimination against asians is A-OK? Nobody needs to "hijack" anything to have a lot of people not want their own kids discriminated against to favor URMs

Real people (arguing both sides) aren't usually so nasty to one another, even on anonymous forums.

Hard disagree on that. Any hot button issue - race, abortion, religion, etc. brings out very strong opinions and nasty responses. You just think asians shouldn't be so mad. If this was a thread about black kids being discriminated against everyone would be like, "amen, the anger is justified!"

I think nobody should be so mad to file a lawsuit about discrimination for "not getting into a highly selective school that rejects 95% of it's applicants" Common sense tells one that means many highly qualified applicants will get rejected, but there are literally hundreds of excellent schools, and really 20-40 "ranked just below that if ranking really matters to you" that your kid will get into if they only demonstrate interest and put it on their application list. The entitlement is astounding.

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Anonymous wrote:Test scores alone are not highly indicative of a successful future college student. It makes no sense to force a college to admit students based on this criteria. I don’t know why we put so much weight upon them. All they really do is generically show relative strengths and weaknesses among high schools.

https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2014/02/19/study-finds-little-difference-academic-success-students-who-do-and-dont-submit-sat#:~:text=The%20study%20confirms%20that%20high,who%20will%20succeed%20in%20college.%22

I keep seeing this claim made but there are decades of research studies on this topic and many show that SAT scores are a very strong predictor of not only college grades but future career success as well.

+1 which is why MIT went back to requiring SAT scores.

MIT is only ONE T25 school. Georgetown still requires the SAT since it's not in the common app.

How about HYPS and the other 1,800+ who are test optional? How about the SAT/ACT going digital to even stay relevant?

I think you've missed the test optional trend. Get used to it. It is here to stay.

It is here to stay because more and more schools want to increase DEI. Getting rid of SAT scores is one way to do that. Why not just get rid of GPAs since there is so much grade inflation and grading is als
o pretty subjective?

GPA - and rigor- over 4 years is a better indicator of college success (at least freshman year) than one 3-hour test.

The AOs know this.

The AOs are failures in life. If they weren't, they wouldn't be stuck in an admissions office. They have low level degrees in xyz studies type areas and have their own personal social agendas to fulfill. I know this because I have the misfortune of interacting with many of them. Professors are not happy about the trajectory of admissions decisions over the past decade

The distain for people who work in education across this forum is so sad. If these failures are picking the classes, why would you want to be part of them? They suck at life, but somehow are able to put together talented cohorts year after year?

+1

Just sour grapes from the PP.

+1

Not to mention, how much "transparency" does China have?? GTFOH.

It's really a huge shame that the US has less transparency than even China when it comes to college admission. seriously WTF

Once again, if China is so awesome, you are free to go there and experience this awesome system.

So you agree that US college admission system is less transparent than even China.

Do you agree with every parts of every US systems. Is that why you are here?

I'm not sure about you, but I think there are rooms to make improvements in many arears in this country.

I care about this country where my kids were born, so unlike you I don't just leave just because I you don't like something.

I like to see improvements and progress.

I was born here, no plans to leave. I do NOT think the Western European, china, India ways of tracking kids at an early age is a better system. So I will fight to not change to that.

The main problem with our current system appears to be many feel "entitled" to an elite university experience because they "worked so hard and got high test scores over 12 years". The blinders are on and they cannot recognize there are not enough spaces for everyone who is highly qualified. And somehow refuse to recognize this and search for great Target and safety schools. Nobody is saying you cannot get an education. You can---most likely at a 25-50 ranked school---still excellent choice and it will not hold your kid back at all, unless they come from an area of entitlement/privilege that they are too good for those schools.

Reaches are just that---reaches for every DAMN person who applies, unless you are an athlete or kid of a president/last name of Bezos or gates/etc. So reach for the stars, but have a good plan in place for if that doesn't work. Because statistically, it will not work out.
It seems many entitled kids this is the first time money and privilege has not bought them everything they wanted. And they cannot seem to recognize their extreme privilege over most of the other kids in the US

The main problem with our current system is that there's no clear rules, no transparency, and they even discriminate based on race.

There are fairly clear rules. What there is not and will never be is a formula, because it's a holistic process. Do the best you can academically, test and submit if you want, be well rounded but ideally a bit pointy and really delve into an area with deep interest for ECs and then apply to a broad range of schools (reach, target and safety). And accept the fact that as long as there are more kids applying to each of the T25 schools than spaces, and most are applying to many of those T25, that all are a REACH for nearly everyone. So if you get rejected don't take it personally and move on. These are highly rejective schools and reject all but 5-10% of the applicants. However, majority (likely 90% of those rejected at a minimum) are "qualified and would make good members of the freshman class of 20XY), despite that most will not make it.
Accept that schools are looking for diversity in many areas (including majors, M/F, geography, income, ECs/sports/areas of interest outside your major including what you volunteer with etc).

But there will never be a you get X+ SAT and y+ gpa and z+ number of APs with all 5s and you are guaranteed a spot. You know what the criteria is. You just do NOT like the fact that not everyone with a 1580+ is going to gain admission to a T25 school. So instead of focusing and complaining "it's not fair", focus on making your kid a better person, have them find a real EC/Volunteering that they love and would do even if it was not needed for college, help them be genuinely an exciting person who wants to make the world a better place, etc. And realize that yes, Kid A may have gotten admission because of their essay or a personal experience that they wrote about and the AO who read it "felt something" and put it into the "accepted" pile.
Someone smart enough to win a lottery ticket for T25 schools should also be smart enough to understand it's not guaranteed and that they will still do exceedingly well in life, and not any worse because of where they attend college. This is 99.999% driven by the adults, not the kids. Kids think this way when from 2nd grade onwards they have 10to 15 hours of extra tutoring just to get ahead, when kid is already A student and most advanced in their class. When their MS friends are going to movies or hanging out with friends on Fri/sat, they are pushed to do advanced math/foreign language/etc. They are pushed to 2-3 grade levels ahead in math whether they want to or not, they are constantly pushed to take APs starting in 9th grade and as many as possible each year to just get ahead and into best colleges. So yes, they often grow to view themselves as a failure in their parent's eyes if they don't have a 100 in every class and only get into #26 and #32 when college application season ends. Those kids have done nothing except be prepped for this all their lives. However, there is a difference between "valuing education" and raising a curious, smart individual who is self motivated, not out of fear of failing the parents.

My kid is asian, works hard, but we allowed them to pick activities and advanced courses that interested them. Made HS a happier experience and ultimately made my kid a great person who everyone loves and who is just a nice friendly helpful individual who others love being around. My kid tried for 3 T30 schools, rejected at 2 and WL at 1. Yes, they wished they had gotten into those, but they had an amazing list of great targets and safeties and got into ALL of them, with good merit (4 Targets in the 30-50 range, and highest safety in the 50-70 range). They have completed freshman year, doing well, loving it, loving the school and great group of friends. Their friends are all extremely smart, curious, genuinely great individuals who will excel in whatever they choose in life. Some even got into "higher ranked schools" and turned them down for fit (trust me---location was definately not the reason).
So yes, it would have been nice for my kid to go to one of those other 3 schools, but they are at an amazing school, they didn't "settle" as this was easily their 2nd choice from the first visit in terms of fit and just feel for the school. My kid is living life in the moment and giving it there all where they ended up---I have no doubts they will excel in their career and life after college---did not really give up anything by not getting into a T25--if anything I think they are having a slightly less stressed college experience, less competition and more collaborative experience and I think that is a good thing

You sound like an awesome parent, raising an awesome kid! Thanks for this!

+1 Thanks for taking the time to write this.

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Anonymous wrote:1) The cost of the lottery ticket is higher for Asian American kids than Black kids. I get that at some point admissions is a lottery for the most selective schools, but you cannot get around the fact that the floor of SAT scores is much lower for Black and Hispanic students than Asian ones.
2) I am not confident that AOs appreciate and take into account the huge differences within the Asian American community with regard to income and parent education.

Honest question, why aren't you screaming from the rooftops about the mostly-white legacy students who make up 30% or so of the incoming classes of these universities, compared to the less than 5% of black kids? You know that it's much more likely one of those kids "stole" the spot others think they are entitled to. How much does *their* lottery ticket cost?

There's no denying that. I think that legacy should end. It's not mutually exclusive to end legacy and insist that the bar to entry be the same regardless of race.

and ALDC is not discriminatory of a protected class; race based admissions is.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Anyone else get the feeling this board has been hijacked by someone trying to get us to fight with each other?

Yes.

Same troll who probably dominates the AAP TJ threads

Perhaps an Asian exceptionalist?

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Anonymous wrote:So shocking how many support anti-asian hate.

They used to discriminate against Jews in exactly same way Harvard now does against Asians.

Can't knock em down based on merits, so you gotta attack their character and figure out ways less accomplished people get in (ahem race).

So, regardless of how you feel about the various posts, it seems silly to say that they used to discriminate against jews the same way Harvard does against Asians.

You do realize that when they discriminated against Jews that meant there were basically 0 zero Jews admitted to Harvard. If 20% - 30% of Harvard is Asian...how is that even remotely the same?

Let's make sure we get our outrage comparisons correct.

+1000

It's apples to oranges

? no, you guys clearly haven't read up on exactly why Harvard started using holistic admissions. They did have Jews in Harvard, but the numbers started increasing, and Harvard decided that there were too many Jews, and that's when they started implementing "holistic" admissions.

Please get educated on this topic before you post your ignorance.

https://www.jta.org/2018/10/17/united-states/harvard-once-capped-the-number-of-jews-is-it-doing-the-same-thing-to-asians-now

As the country’s Jewish population ballooned in the early 20th century, the Jewish proportion of Harvard students increased exponentially, too. In 1900, just 7 percent of the Ivy League school’s students were Jewish. By 1922, the figure was 21.5 percent.

In response to a letter from an alumnus bemoaning that Harvard was no longer a “white man’s” college, Lowell wrote that he “had foreseen the peril of having too large a number of an alien race, and had tried to prevent it.”

Lowell eventually succeeded in changing the admissions standards at his Boston-area university to limit the number of Jews.

https://projects.iq.harvard.edu/expose/book/cloak-meritocracy-harvard%E2%80%99s-%E2%80%9Cnew-plan%E2%80%9D-admissions-and-%E2%80%9Cjewish-problem