Jesus' Historicity

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Hey red letter summary guy, you ignored previous points posted in this thread while making a number of bad arguments.

First, whether current scholars overwhelming support historicity is not evidence that they are correct. This is akin to saying that Galileo was wrong for supporting heliocentricity even though that was the minority (and considered heretical) position at the time.

Second, you seem prone to attacking the scholars trying to engage in an honest debate, but you have done nothing to make counterpoints to their actual arguments.

Third, and this is my attempt to summarize your many posts, so I apologize in advance if I don’t capture everything, but you essentially argue there are 4 main sources backing up your view of Jesus’ historicity. Two non-Christian (Tacitus and Josephus) and two Christian (Paul’s letters and canonical gospels) sources.

Let’s review the arguments.

Tacitus – we can rule this one out completely as evidence for historicity. All this does is confirm what we already know – there was a small sect within the Jewish community in the early part of the millennium that later evolved into what we call Christians. Tacitus in no way confirms a historical Jesus.

Josephus – there are supposedly two mentions historicists cite. The main reference, the Testimonium Flavianum (Book 18), is a complete Christian forgery. The second portion is more debated (Book 20). This is most likely an interpolation or, if authentic, simply indicates the existence of a prominent figure named James. It is NOT evidence for a historical Jesus.

Paul's Letters – These are generally considered the earliest Christian documents. However, the Christianity/Jesus of Paul is very different than the canonical version of today. Paul speaks of Jesus as a divine, celestial being, and his knowledge comes from mystical revelations, not from meeting an earthly person or eyewitnesses. It was very common for people to claim they had religious insights through “revelation”. It is also conspicuous and notable that there are no details of Jesus' earthly life, ministry, miracles, teachings, or specific locations, which a reasonable person would expect to find if he were a contemporary of a well-known figure. It is also notable that we have no record of who or what Paul was responding to in those letters.

Canonical Gospels – Really, we are discussing a single gospel, not multiple as Mark was the first (written after the fall of the 2nd temple), and all the others are re-tellings of the story. It is like Superman movies – 1978, 2013, and 2025. They all have the same basic story but with their own twists. And, the gospels are similar in that it’s a made for TV story. They are legendary fiction and an amalgam of motifs from the Hebrew Bible and Greco-Roman myths, such as those about "dying and rising gods" – like the popular and well known story of one of Rome’s mythical founders, Romulus.



Tacitus is not merely repeating what Christians were saying in Rome in 64 CE (the time of the Nero persecution). He is reporting what Roman official tradition knew about the origins of the sect: that it traced back to an executed founder named Christus in Judea under Pilate.

That is independent corroboration of the same core historicist claim found in the Gospels and in Josephus.

So no, you cannot “rule Tacitus out completely” as evidence for a historical Jesus. Among professional ancient historians, it is one of the strongest pieces of extra-biblical evidence we have.

Tacitus Annals 15.44 is accepted as authentic by essentially 100 % of specialists in Roman history (e.g., Ronald Syme, Ronald Mellor, Anthony Barrett, Michael Grant, etc.). It is routinely cited as independent, non-Christian evidence that: A historical person regarded as the founder of Christianity was executed by Pontius Pilate under Tiberius. The movement originated in Judea.

Even strongly skeptical scholars who are open to mythicist arguments (e.g., Bart Ehrman, Maurice Casey, James Crossley) treat the Tacitus passage as reliable confirmation of those basic facts.


The points you raise are standard historicist fare, relying on assumptions about the nature of Tacitus's sourcing that simply do not withstand rigorous scrutiny.

You contend that Tacitus is reporting "what Roman official tradition knew." This is a highly optimistic reading of the evidence. Tacitus was writing some fifty years after the events in question, likely relying on secondary sources, perhaps oral reports, the acta (which he may have consulted for official details like Pilate's name), or even popular hearsay among Romans, which was invariably informed by what the Christians themselves were saying about their founder. There is no "official tradition" of the internal beliefs of a tiny, obscure foreign cult that would have remained pristine and independent of that cult's own narrative for half a century.

You assert that Tacitus provides "independent corroboration." The entire issue at hand is the source of his information. If his source was ultimately Christian information circulating in Rome, then it is not independent at all; it merely confirms that Christians in Rome believed in an executed founder. Tacitus was a historian, yes, but he was not an investigative historian on the ground in Judea in 33 CE. He reported what was commonly understood in his educated Roman circle.

You correctly note that Annals is accepted as authentic by virtually all specialists in Roman history. The text itself is authentic. The debate is not about the authenticity of the text, but the reliability of the claim within the text as an independent source for a historical person. These specialists you list are experts on Roman history, law, and administration, but they are generally not specialists in the origins of Christianity, New Testament source criticism, or the nuances of mythicist arguments. They treat the passage at face value because it fits the general consensus narrative they operate within.

You also mention strongly skeptical scholars like Bart Ehrman. While Ehrman is skeptical of many Bible claims, he is explicitly and robustly historicist when it comes to Jesus’ existence. Citing him as "open to mythicist arguments" is a considerable stretch. These scholars operate within the dominant paradigm, and challenging the historicity of Jesus is often considered beyond the pale of 'mainstream' academic discourse, regardless of the quality of the evidence.

When you dissect the passage, you find Tacitus knew nothing about Christians other than their name, the place of origin (Rome), their place of origin from (Judea), the name of the founder (Christus), his execution under Pilate, and their "mischievous superstition". Every single one of these details aligns perfectly with the Christian narrative circulating at the time. There is zero information that he could not have gleaned from asking a Roman Christian, "Who are you people, and who founded your cult?"

Tacitus provides excellent evidence for what Christians in 115 CE believed about their origins, but he offers zero independent, non-Christian evidence that those beliefs were factually true. To assume otherwise is to engage in circular reasoning, using the text to confirm the historicity which is already assumed before the text is even analyzed. The passage, therefore, can and should be ruled out as an independent confirmation of a historical Jesus.



And more
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The criterion of embarrassment is one of the most useful tools historians use when trying to figure out what actually happened in the life of Jesus (or any ancient figure). It’s important because it helps us cut through theological propaganda and later legend-making.

If a story contains details that would have been embarrassing, inconvenient, or counterproductive for the early Christians who wrote it down, those details are unlikely to have been invented. Why would you make up something that makes your movement look weak, foolish, or wrong—unless it was too well-known to deny?

Early Christianity was trying to convert people. They had every motive to make Jesus look as powerful, wise, and obviously divine as possible from day one. Yet the earliest sources (especially Mark) keep including these awkward, unflattering moments. The best explanation historians have is: those things really happened, and the tradition was too strong to suppress even when it was inconvenient.

That’s why even completely secular, skeptical scholars (Ehrman, Crossan, Sanders, etc.) treat the crucifixion, the baptism by John, the family conflict, and a few other “embarrassing” items as basically bedrock facts. The criterion of embarrassment is one of the main reasons the total “Jesus never existed” position is considered fringe in academia.


The criterion of embarrassment argument sounds perfectly reasonable in theory but utterly collapses under a rigorous analysis of the specific texts and the historical context of early Christianity. It is far from being “one of the most useful tools historians use".

You argue that embarrassing details were too well-known to deny. This presumes an audience that knew the history independently of the Gospels themselves, which is a massive, unwarranted assumption. For most audiences outside of a tiny core group of original followers, the authors were the source of information. They could deny or alter anything they wished.

The issue is that the alleged "embarrassing" facts are only embarrassing if you assume the later theological framework of a divine, all-knowing Christ who was supposed to appear powerful from day one. This anachronistic standard ignores the actual beliefs and concerns of the specific communities that produced the earliest gospels.

Let's dissect the primary examples offered:

The Crucifixion - You call the crucifixion embarrassing. Of course it was … in the Roman world. A messiah being publicly executed as a criminal was a scandal to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles. However, this is precisely why it had to be addressed, not ignored. It wasn't an inconvenient fact they couldn't suppress; it was the central theological problem they had to solve with sophisticated allegory and prophecy-fulfillment narratives. The claim that Jesus was crucified was essential to the theology they were already developing (salvation through sacrifice = atonement). The "embarrassment" generated the very theological necessity that shaped the narrative. Paul, writing decades earlier than the Gospels, doesn't treat the cross as an inconvenient fact he wishes he could hide; he treats it as the proud center of his preaching. It wasn't an historical embarrassment; it was a theological starting point.

The baptism by John - "Why would God's son need a baptism of repentance from sins, and why be baptized by a lesser figure (John)?" historians ask. But again, this misunderstands the Markan community's potential beliefs. Mark 1:9-11 doesn't say Jesus was being baptized for sin. The narrative exists primarily to establish divine identification and fulfill prophecy (Isaiah 40:3). If anything, the "embarrassment" argument is defeated by the subsequent gospels, who felt this supposed embarrassment and immediately modified the story to mitigate it (eg, Matthew adds John's protestation, "I need to be baptized by you..."). The fact that the later gospels felt the need to change the story shows that earlier authors could have done so too. The fact that Mark didn't suggests it wasn't an embarrassment to him, but fulfilled a different narrative purpose.


+1
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Historians judge the historicity of any ancient figure (whether Jesus, Socrates, Hannibal, or an obscure rebel leader) using a consistent set of methodological tools and criteria. They do not require archaeological evidence, statues, or coins. Instead, they work with the evidence that actually survives from antiquity—almost all of it textual—and apply the following principles:

1. Multiple, Independent Attestation
The more independent sources that mention the person (especially if they are from different perspectives or hostile to each other), the stronger the case for historicity. Example for Jesus: At least 8–10 independent sources within ~100 years (Pauline letters, Mark, Q-source, Matthew, Luke-Acts, John, Hebrews, Josephus [2×], Tacitus, possibly Pliny the Younger/Suetonius). That is far more than for almost any other 1st-century Palestinian Jew.

2. Criterion of Embarrassment
Details that would have been inconvenient or embarrassing to the author are unlikely to be invented. Examples: Jesus baptized by John (implying subordination), crucified by Romans (a shameful death), denied by his disciples, family thinking he was crazy (Mark 3:21), etc.

3. Criterion of Dissimilarity (or Double Dissimilarity)
Sayings or actions that don’t easily fit either later Christian theology or contemporary Judaism are unlikely to be invented by the church.
Examples: “Render to Caesar…”, prohibition of divorce, associating with tax collectors and sinners, etc.

4. Coherence with Known Historical Context
Does the figure fit what we independently know about the time, place, language, culture, politics, and archaeology? Jesus fits 1st-century Galilean Judaism under Roman rule almost perfectly (Aramaic speaker, debates Torah, apocalyptic prophet, conflict with Pharisees and Temple authorities, executed under Pilate, etc.).

5. Principle of Analogy
Does the story resemble known patterns of human behavior and historical events?
Itinerant charismatic prophets who attract followers, clash with authorities, and get executed were extremely common in 1st-century Judea (Theudas, the Egyptian prophet, John the Baptist, etc.).

6. Early Dating of Sources
The closer the source is to the person’s lifetime, the better. Paul (writing 48–60 CE) already knows of Jesus’ crucifixion, brother James, and several disciples by name — within 15–30 years of the events. Mark ~70 CE, less than one lifetime later.

7. Hostile or Non-Christian Corroboration
Confirmation from sources that have no reason to be sympathetic. Josephus (Jewish, non-Christian) twice mentions Jesus (one passage partially corrupted, but core is accepted by almost all scholars). Tacitus (Roman pagan, hostile to Christians) in 115 CE confirms Jesus was executed under Pontius Pilate.

8. Effects and Rapid Spread (the “Big Bang” argument)
A historical figure often leaves a disproportionate “explosion” of evidence shortly after their death. Within 20–30 years a movement in Jesus’ name had spread from rural Galilee to Jerusalem, Antioch, Damascus, Corinth, Rome — with thousands of followers willing to die for the claim he had risen. That kind of rapid, explosive growth almost never happens around a purely mythical figure.

Alexander the Great: the earliest sources we have after his death is approximately 300 years. We have several independent sources and of course cities, coins, and statues of Alex. Historians are certain he existed.

Socrates: earliest sources are 10–40 years after his death (Plato, Xenophon, Aristophanes). We have 4+ independent sources for Socrates. We have zero archeological evidence. Historians are certain he existed.

Hannibal: earliest sources after his death are 50-150 years. We have 2-3 independent sources, zero direct archaeological evidence, and historians are certain he existed.

Pontius Pilate: earliest sources after his death are 30-60 years, (Philo, Josephus, Gospels, Tacitus) and 4 independent sources. We have one piece of archaeological evidence found in 1961, and historians are certain he existed.

Jesus of Nazareth: earliest sources after his death, 15-40 years. 8-10+ independent sources, no archaeological evidence, and his historicity in near universal among historians and scholars.


Virtually every professional historian (Christian, Jewish, atheist, agnostic) who studies the period accepts that Jesus existed. The very few who argue otherwise (the “Jesus mythicist” position) are generally not ancient historians and are treated like flat-earthers or Holocaust deniers within the academy.

In short: historians are not surprised we have no coins, statues, or inscriptions of Jesus. They are impressed we have as much early, diverse, and contextual evidence as we do for a 1st-century Galilean peasant preacher. By normal historical standards, the evidence for his existence is actually quite strong.

Why is dcum a hotbed of non-ancient historians espousing what is considered Holocaust denier levels of skepticism on this topic?

If you are reading this thread, just know that the people who are demanding delusional levels of proof for JC are really delusional. I don’t mean that as an insult; they just don’t know how professional historians and scholars work.

If you think that the only people who can objectively study the life of Jesus Christ are atheists raised in a sterile, religion free environment, I don’t want to sound like I am attacking anyone, but you are really wrong and ignorant about not only the historicity of JC, but the world of academia and scholarship. It’s really a disheartening thread, so many people are posting the most inaccurate and misleading information.


It’s interesting that you write about methodological principles while simultaneously failing to apply them rigorously to the evidence for Jesus. The mainstream consensus is built upon weak foundations and special pleading. The key error here is the assumption that the "normal historical standards" you cite actually favor a historical Jesus when applied with proper skepticism.

You argue that historians use consistent tools. This is true. The problem is that when these tools are applied without the underlying assumption that "Jesus must have existed," the evidence evaporates. Mainstream scholars typically fail to account for the unique nature of early Christian literature, which is inherently theological, allegorical, and rooted in scriptural interpretation, not historical biography.

Your “8–10 independent" sources within 100 years” is a profound misunderstanding of source dependencies. The Gospels are not independent. Mark influenced Matthew and Luke (the Synoptic Problem). John is a separate tradition but deeply theological. The "Q-source" is a hypothesis, not a physical document, and may be a collection of sayings used by Matthew and Luke. Grouping them as independent sources is fallacious. We have perhaps two or three lines of Christian tradition: Pauline, Markan, and Johannine.

Paul is crucial because he is early. But, his silence on earthly details is deafening. Paul never mentions any details that require an earthly, recent Jesus. He mentions a crucifixion, a burial, a resurrection, all details found in the scriptures and revealed through prophecy or visionary experience, within a celestial framework. He mentions a "brother James," which is an ecclesiastical title, not necessarily a biological relationship. Paul is excellent evidence for a celestial Jesus cult, but terrible evidence for a historical one.

Tacitus/Josephus - As discussed previously, Tacitus reflects Christian belief, not Roman records of an event fifty years prior. The Josephus passages are universally acknowledged to have Christian interpolations. The minimal historical core scholars try to salvage from them is guesswork, not robust evidence. The original Josephus likely said nothing about Jesus.

For Socrates, Plato and Xenophon are writing philosophical dialogues about a teacher they knew personally in living memory, not anonymous, post-resurrection propaganda written 40-70 years later by anonymous authors in different countries. The comparison is entirely fallacious.

As noted before, the criterion of embarrassment, assume the authors were writing history rather than theology or allegory. The alleged embarrassments served a specific literary or theological purpose for the original Markan. The dissimilar sayings often disappear in later gospels or are highly ambiguous, making them weak historical indicators.

The claim that Jesus "fits perfectly" is circular reasoning. The "1st-century Galilean Judaism under Roman rule" construct is largely derived from the Gospels themselves, supplemented by Josephus. Its creating a context from these sources, then using that context to validate the sources. This is poor methodology.

Your “Big Bang” argument - This is the weakest argument of all. A "mythical" figure cannot generate rapid growth? For example, the Cult of Asclepius rapidly spread across the Mediterranean with thousands of followers who believed they were healed by a divine figure. The ancient world was littered with mystery cults centered on celestial, saving gods who were believed to have existed in a mythic past and appeared in visions. Early Christianity spread because it offered attractive theological answers = salvation from sin plus reward of an afterlife. Witness how many people still buy the idea today. The idea spread, the narrative followed.

Please stop with your ad hominem attempts to link mythicism with holocaust deniers and flat earthers. That is not engaging in an honest debate.

The vast majority of scholars in the field were trained within institutions that presuppose Jesus' historicity. Biblical scholarship grew out of theology departments. To question the existence of the founder of the religion you are studying is often career suicide or intellectually disqualifying within the field. It is a consensus based on tradition, not necessarily a consensus that survives a truly neutral, external investigation.

Professional ancient historians, when they bother to look at the specific source problems of the Gospels and Paul with the same skepticism they apply to Romulus or Dionysus, often find the evidence much weaker than you suggest.

The evidence for Jesus is strong only if you desperately want it to be. By normal, rigorous historical standards applied without bias, the evidence is astonishingly weak.


+2
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:The Jesus evidence example (exactly the case we’ve been discussing)

People commit a category error when they say:


“There’s no archaeological evidence or contemporaneous outsider documentation for Jesus → therefore he probably didn’t exist.”

That reasoning only works if Jesus belonged to the category of people who normally leave archaeological or contemporaneous records (emperors, governors, high priests, famous rabbis, rebel leaders who mint coins, wealthy benefactors who commission inscriptions, etc.).

But Jesus belonged to a completely different category: 1st-century Galilean peasant itinerant preacher.
For that category, the normal, expected evidence profile is:
-Zero archaeology
-Zero contemporaneous outsider records

Demanding that a member of Category B produce the evidence typical of Category A — and then declaring him “probably fictional” when he doesn’t — is a textbook category error.


It’s like saying:

“I looked in the sky and didn’t see any fish → therefore fish don’t exist.”
(Fish belong in water, not the sky.)
Or:
“I dug in the desert and didn’t find any whales → therefore whales are a myth.”
(Whales belong in the ocean.)

In the same way:
“I looked for inscriptions and Roman police reports about Jesus and didn’t find any → therefore Jesus is a myth.”
(Those kinds of records belong to emperors and governors, not Galilean carpenters.)

That’s the category error in a nutshell. Once you place Jesus in the correct historical category (lower-class apocalyptic Jewish preacher in Roman Palestine), the total archaeological and contemporaneous silence becomes the expected default, not a problem.


These evidence claims are a classic red herring, constructing strawmen only to knock them down. The real issue is not the mere absence of specific archaeological evidence. No one expects a Nazareth tax receipt. What matters is the positive evidence we actually possess.

The proposed analogy with Hillel or Judas the Galilean is a false equivalence. Judas the Galilean is accepted because Josephus provides a detailed and historically grounded description of Judas the Galilean across multiple works, offering specifics about his ideology, his movement's legacy, his followers, and even the fate of his sons. This stands in stark contrast to the highly disputed passage in the Testimonium Flavianum concerning Jesus, which is widely considered by scholars to be partially or wholly a Christian interpolation as it lacks the historical specificity found in other Josephan accounts.

For Jesus, the only narrative sources we have are the Gospels, which are anonymous, theological tracts written by non-eyewitnesses, full of demonstrable fictions like the universal census of Quirinius (Luke 2) or zombies walking the streets of Jerusalem (Matthew 27). These are not the kinds of sources historians can trust for historical facts.

The claim that "absence of evidence is meaningless" for a lower-class preacher is a fundamental misapplication of historical methodology. Absence of evidence is evidence of absence when evidence should be there. For a figure whose followers believed he was the key to salvation and divine revelation, detailed testimony in the earliest Christian sources should be present, but it is conspicuously absent.

The historicist lists all the evidence that couldn't possibly exist but conveniently ignores the most crucial evidence that should, detailed testimony in the earliest surviving Christian documents. Paul's Letters are the only contemporary documents we have available, but his Jesus is a celestial, pre-existent Lord who reveals himself through scripture and mystic visions. Paul shows no knowledge of Nazareth, Bethlehem, a virgin birth, an earthly ministry in Galilee, specific miracles, twelve disciples, Judas' betrayal, or teachings like the Sermon on the Mount. His "brother of the Lord" is likely a spiritual brother, not a biological one, consistent with Paul's focus on spiritual family. And, Paul explicitly states his gospel came not from "flesh and blood" (human sources) but from "revelation" (Galatians 1:11-12).

The myth theory is a hypothesis that better fits the totality of the evidence (and lack thereof). Early Christians believed in a celestial Christ revealed in scripture and visions. This divine being was then historicized over the course of several decades, a process likely accelerated by the profound political and religious turmoil following the destruction of the Second Temple. With the cessation of Temple sacrifices, the foundational mechanism of atonement in traditional Judaism vanished. A historicized Jesus, portrayed in the Gospels (the first Gospel was written after the Temple was destroyed) as a single, perfect, and final human sacrifice whose blood atoned for sin, provided a potent and immediate theological solution to the crisis of atonement, making an earthly narrative a necessary tool for the survival and spread of the burgeoning Christian movement in a post-Temple world.

The historicist model requires us to believe that the earliest sources knew the least about the most important historical figure of their time, while later, non-eyewitness, anonymous sources knew everything. The point is that the positive evidence we do have points away from a historical Jesus and toward a mythical one.


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Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
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Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Academics, scholars, historians, and professors in relevant fields overwhelmingly agree that Jesus was a real historical figure who lived in first-century Judea, and this consensus is so strong that professionals in the discipline do not seriously doubt his existence.

A very small number of individuals—often generously termed “independent” researchers despite typically lacking formal academic credentials in relevant fields, affiliation with established institutions, or publication in peer-reviewed journals—propose that Jesus was entirely mythical, perhaps derived from earlier legends or invented wholesale.

In professional circles, such views are not taken seriously.

From comprehensive lists and discussions in scholarly sources (including Wikipedia’s compilation of proponents, academic reviews, and blogs by both supporters and critics), the number of notable individuals who have publicly advocated for a purely mythical Jesus in modern times (post-1900) appears to be in the range of 10 to 30, depending on how strictly one defines “historian” or “independent researcher” and full endorsement of mythicism.
activists).

This is an educated guesstimate: likely fewer than 20 living individuals who fit the “independent historian/researcher” description and actively promote the full Christ myth theory today. The vast majority operate outside peer-reviewed academia, via blogs, self-published books, or online platforms, which is why they’re often described (even generously) as fringe. No formal census exists, and the group is tiny compared to the thousands of scholars who accept a historical Jesus as the consensus view.

A reasonable guesstimate is that several thousand (likely 5,000–10,000 or more) qualified academics, historians, and professors in relevant disciplines worldwide accept the historical existence of Jesus as the mainstream position. This consensus spans believers, agnostics, atheists, and non-Christians alike, and has been the standard view in professional scholarship for over a century. The tiny minority who reject it entirely are not representative of the field.


Less than 20 vs 5,000-10,000.

That’s quite a difference.


And 0 actual historians.

10,000 bible scholars believe the bible. Shocker.


So the only real historians who know the truth are who? Name them so people can read their writings and research and evaluate for themselves.

Are you going to keep their names and the real truth hidden? Why would you do that?



Real historians study history, not the bible.

I don't start with the predetermined answer and then look for "experts" who support it.

Start with real historians and see what they say. Any of them even bother with historicity? Maybe not worth their time since there is no evidence.



Ok, give me a list of real historians and I will see what they say.


Pick any history department in any university - not the theology dept.


Virtually all professional historians and scholars of antiquity accept that Jesus of Nazareth was a historical person who lived in the 1st century AD. The idea that he never existed is treated as a fringe or “mythicist” position outside mainstream scholarship.

Michael Grant (a classicist) states that "In recent years, 'no serious scholar has ventured to postulate the non-historicity of Jesus' or at any rate very few, and they have not succeeded in disposing of the much stronger, indeed very abundant, evidence to the contrary." in Jesus: An Historian's Review of the Gospels by Michael Grant (2004) ISBN 1898799881 p. 200


Every time you say Jesus was a real person, I'll say "So What? That doesn't mean he's God."

Still, I don't think you get it or even want to get it. Instead, you like to think that the more experts say that Jesus was a real person, and the more you write about it here, the more likely it is that Jesus is God.


Jesus the real guy vs Jesus the Divine Son of God is a separate discussion.

I can separate the topics, you cannot.

You are welcome to keep trying to meld the topics but it’s pointless because if you read the thread title you’d see this is a discussion based on historical data. No one here has tried to argue about divinity or the existence of God and that Jesus was his Son.

If you wish to keep commenting in this manner, that’s your choice. I don’t want to thread jack and you do.


Let's say Jesus was real. So What? Lots of people from those days were real. What's so special about Jesus? You might say that what's special is that so many people say he's not real. I certainly don't see that here. Mainly, people don't care if Jesus, or anyone from that long-ago era, is real. They only care if he is the son of god. That is a matter of belief. It can't be proven. It doesn't matter how many experts think he's the son of god.

Many people say that Mohammed is real too. It only really matters if you believe that he was Allah's (i.e., God's) messenger.


I think you are on topic and making the same point others were. It's possible a man named Jesus lived even though that is also doubtful. There is little evidence to support that he was divine.


Correct. Also, there's no evidence to prove that Jesus, or anyone, was divine. There is only evidence that some people believed he was divine. There is also evidence that some people think that other people are divine

#If you just stopped here nobody would quibble and you would have had the last word.
You could have even added "Some people who believed in the divinity of certain people
and in a divinity as children eventually changed their views and do not believe in thise things." Another nonquibbleable statement. But no....

and some children believe in the easter bunny and Santa Claus. They eventually grow out of those beliefs.


Anonymous
Was Peter real? How do we know or not know?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:Remember how turbulent the world of First-Century Judea was. This was a time of immense political tension and foreign occupation, leading to widespread Jewish apocalypticism, the belief that God would soon intervene dramatically to destroy evil forces, restore Israel, and establish His eternal Kingdom. There was also widespread discontent with the Jerusalem Temple establishment. This resulted in many competing Jewish sects at the time.

In addition, esoteric mystery cults were common in the wider Greco-Roman world. These groups offered a personal religious experience, often promising salvation or a blessed afterlife, which was distinct from the public, state-sponsored worship of the time. Within esoteric groups, members were often initiated into various levels of secret knowledge (Gnosis). Groups like the community at Qumran (associated with the Dead Sea Scrolls), had rigid hierarchical structures and specific titles for their leadership ("the Teacher of Righteousness," "Sons of Light," etc.).

At this time, it was also remarkably common for individuals to claim authority within a religion based on direct divine revelations or visions rather than inherited lineage or institutional appointment. Within the context of Jewish apocalyptic movements and the surrounding Greco-Roman mystery cults, personal charismatic experience was a powerful credential, often seen as a direct calling from God that superseded traditional structures. This emphasis on immediate spiritual insight facilitated a dynamic religious landscape where new leaders and sects could emerge rapidly, each validated by the claim of a unique and personal encounter with the divine.

Within all this context, the first “Christians” were a small group started in the Jewish capital, Jerusalem. They were devout Jews who adhered strictly to the Mosaic Law. These early “Jewish Christians” viewed themselves as the true remnant of Israel, called to a higher standard of holiness and adherence to the Torah.

These Jewish Christians were also an esoteric mystery cult, featuring secret teachings, hidden rituals, and an initiation process for members. A "brother" of the Lord might be a title reserved for those who had reached the highest level of understanding of the Christ, differentiating them from ordinary believers.

Within this community, one of their key leaders was James, referred to as "James the Just" (or James the Righteous) in early extra-canonical Christian sources (like Hegesippus, preserved in Eusebius's Church History). These sources describe him as an ascetic who never cut his hair, drank no wine, and spent so much time praying in the Temple that his knees became calloused like a camel's. This rigorous lifestyle and commitment to poverty provided a compelling model of piety that attracted like-minded Jews seeking a purer form of religious observance.

James, as a "pillar" (Galatians 2:9), was the top earthly authority, and his unique title reflected that supreme status. James’s authority (see previous point on authority through revelation) was reinforced by a visionary experience (mentioned briefly by Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:7) that validated his role as the movement’s head. His title, “the Lord’s brother,” has sparked centuries of debate. In Koine Greek, adelphos (“brother”) could mean biological sibling, close relative, or spiritual kin. Many scholars argue that Paul used it as an honorific title, marking James as the primary leader of the sect, not necessarily a blood relative of Jesus. This interpretation aligns with the movement’s hierarchical structure, where titles signified levels of esoteric knowledge and authority.

Simultaneously, there was a Hellenistic Jew named Paul who was proselytizing throughout the Roman Empire. Paul was also a visionary mystic whose faith centered on a savior figure named "Christ" or "Jesus.” ***(Conveniently, the name Jesus is the English transliteration of the Greek name Iēsous (Ἰησοῦς), which is itself a transliteration of the Aramaic name Yeshua (ישוע). This was a common name among Jews in the First Century. The name's etymological meaning is significant, as it summarizes the core theological message of the New Testament: "YHWH is salvation" or "The Lord saves".)***

Paul’s Christ was revealed to him through spiritual visions (again, see point on authority through revelation) and scriptural interpretation (e.g., from Isaiah or the Book of Wisdom). Paul’s "Gospel" does not discuss a historical ministry in Palestine, but about a pre-existent divine being who died in the heavens to redeem humanity.

Paul also claimed authority through his dramatic vision on the road to Damascus which helped to propel him into the early leadership. Paul’s version was revolutionary - salvation by faith alone, apart from the works of the Law. For Paul, distinctions like “Jew nor Greek” were erased in Christ, creating a universal faith accessible to all. His theology centered on a cosmic savior, revealed through scripture and mystical experience. This message resonated with Gentiles across the Roman Empire, making Paul’s version of Christianity far more adaptable and expansive than James’s.

Another early leader, Peter (Cephas), was the movement’s spokesperson. His authority, like James’s and Paul’s, rested on mystical experiences interpreted as encounters with the risen Christ. Peter’s role was primarily as “apostle to the Jews,” but he also acted as a diplomat, navigating the growing rift between James’s law-observant faction and Paul’s radical, law-free mission. James insisted that “faith without works is dead,” emphasizing ethical action as the fruit of genuine belief. Paul countered that justification came “by faith, not by works,” defining works as ritual observances like circumcision. This resulted in the Incident at Antioch, where Paul rebuked Peter for withdrawing from Gentile fellowship under pressure from James’s delegates. Later theologians harmonized these views, but it shows the diversity and conflict within the earliest Christian movement.

James’s martyrdom around 62 CE and the catastrophic destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE decapitated the mother church. The Jerusalem based Jewish-Christian center dissolved, and Paul’s Gentile-friendly, portable theology became dominant. Christianity’s survival and global spread owe more to Paul’s universal vision than to James’s original, historically Jewish rooted form.

As the movement expanded, the Gospel writers faced a challenge of how to give their heavenly savior an earthly biography. Thus, they crafted narratives rich in symbolism and prophecy, weaving Old Testament motifs with Greco-Roman literary tropes. Luke’s census story and Matthew’s Star of Bethlehem and Massacre of the Innocents are prime examples of dramatic plot devices with no historical basis, designed to fulfill messianic prophecies and elevate Jesus as a new Moses-like figure. It is clear that these narratives are later literary creations, not part of the original tradition centered on visions and eschatological urgency.

The historical bedrock of Christianity begins not with a Galilean preacher, but with a visionary sect led by James the Just in Jerusalem. Its strict Jewish ethos and apocalyptic fervor shaped the earliest community. Yet, it was Paul’s radical reinterpretation, a faith unbound by the Law, centered on a cosmic Christ, that ensured Christianity’s survival and growth. The Gospels, written generations later, retrofitted this mystical savior with an earthly life, creating the Jesus of history as we know him today, a figure born as much from literary imagination as from historical memory.


No, that description is not considered accurate by mainstream historians of early Christianity.
But: It does reflect a minority, mythicist-leaning interpretation (associated with writers like Burton Mack, Earl Doherty, and Richard Carrier). Most scholars-across secular, Jewish, Christian, and atheist backgrounds-reject the idea that Jesus began as a purely heavenly being invented later.

What Mainstream Scholars Agree On
(Think: Paula Fredriksen, Bart Ehrman, James Dunn, E.P. Sanders, Dale Allison, John Meier, Géza Vermes)

1. Jesus was a real apocalyptic Jewish preacher from Galilee.

There is overwhelming consensus-shared by religious and nonreligious historians-that:
-A historical Jesus existed
-He preached in Galilee
-He gathered tollowers
-He was executed by Pontius Pilate around 30 CE

This conclusion rests on multiple independent textual streams (Mark, Q material, Paul's references to Jesus' family, Josephus, etc.).

The claim that Christianity began only with a visionary sect and only later created an earthly Jesus is not accepted by specialists in the field.

2. The Infancy Narratives are theological, not historical.

This is partially correct.

Scholars overwhelmingly agree that:
1 Luke’s census as described did not historically occur.
-Matthew's Star of Bethlehem is not a historical astronomical event.

The Massacre of the Innocents is not supported by evidence outside Matthew
These narratives are understood as literary/ theological constructions designed to:
-Tie Jesus to Davidic lineage
-Fulfill scriptural motifs
-Present Jesus as a "new Moses" or new
Israel

So yes, this part aligns with mainstream scholarship.

But it does not imply the entire life of Jesus was invented.

3. Paul's theology is innovative.

Mainstream scholars agree that Paul:
-Emphasized faith in Christ over adherence to the full Mosaic Law
-Presented Jesus in cosmic, exalted terms
-Played a major role in spreading Christianity among Gentiles

But this is NOT understood as "Paul invented
Christianity."

Rather: he reinterpreted an already existing movement following a real, earthly Jesus.

—>What the Excerpt Claims That Is Not Accepted by Historians

1. "The earliest movement followed a heavenly savior with no earthly life."
This is mythicist theory, not mainstream scholarship.
Paul:

-Mentions Jesus' birth ("born of a woman,"Gal 4:4)
-Mentions his Jewish identity
-Mentions brothers (James, "the brother of the Lord," Gal 1:19)
-Refers to his earthly teachings
- Refers to the Last Supper tradition
-Refers to his crucifixion under earthly powers


2. "The Gospels retrofitted a fictional biography onto a cosmic Christ."

Scholars see it differently:
-The Gospels shape memory through theology and storytelling
-But they do not invent Jesus wholesale
-They reflect real traditions, expanded and interpreted
-Think: not biography vs. fiction, but memory shaped by theology, like ancient biographies of other figures.

3. "The historical bedrock is James the Just's visionary sect."

James was an important early leader.

But there's no evidence he founded a religion around visions of a heavenly Christ.

Instead:
—>James leads the Jerusalem church after Jesus' death
——>He sees himself preserving Jesus' teachings within a Jewish framework
———>Paul's letters indicate continuity with Jesus' earthly ministry, not invention of a mythic Christ

What Historians Do Think the Gospels Are

The best model is:
1. Jesus existed as a real preacher.
2. Early followers experienced visions of him after his death
(very similar to how ancient Jewish apocalyptic groups understood martyrdom and vindication).
3. Traditions about him circulated orally for decades.
4. The Gospel writers shaped those traditions into theological narratives, adding symbolic material (infancy stories, miracle patterns, scriptural fulfillment).

This view explains:
A. Both the mythic/symbolic layers
B. And the historical core beneath them
without requiring Jesus to be invented wholesale.


Again, cut through the historicist dogma and apply some rigorous skepticism to the so-called evidence. You keep asserting the same points as scholarly consensus while omitting key details or presenting contested interpretations as fact. Those same scholars do debate the deep methodological flaws in mainstream scholarship.

The "consensus" is often a circular argument within a field heavily populated by people of faith, who have a vested interest in a historical figure.

The claim of overwhelming consensus is true only within the bubble of biblical studies. This consensus often relies on a minimal-facts argument that assumes a historical core without sufficient skeptical scrutiny of the sources.

There are no independent textual streams. The Gospels are heavily interdependent and were written decades after the alleged events, reflecting theological agendas, not unbiased historical records. Matthew and Luke used Mark, meaning they are not independent confirmation of Mark's claims. They are derivations and edits of Mark consistent with different communities’ viewpoints and different interpretations over the course of time. Also, Q is pure speculation. There is no proof it existed.

No one said Paul invented Christianity. His primary contribution was the divide between his “belief only” approach versus James’ “works based” approach. Paul's letters conspicuously lack details of an earthly ministry, which is precisely the problem for historicists.

If Jesus had been a famous earthly preacher, Paul would likely have mentioned these things to add authority to his message. Where are the references to Jesus’ most important speech, the Sermon on the Mount? How would Paul be completely unaware or not mention it given how important it is to Christianity? In fact, Paul never mentions any of Jesus’ parables or teachings. As a leader in the early movement responsible for spreading the gospel throughout the Roman Empire, he was completely unaware of these core aspects? Would they not have provided more support for the message he was trying to spread? It is clear that there was no oral tradition that kept the memory of such events and sayings since they had not been created yet.

Paul's emphasis on a cosmic, exalted Christ suggests the initial movement was focused on a spiritual savior known through revelation and scripture, not memory of a living man. Paul was a Roman citizen with a Hellenistic worldview, and he integrated Jesus into a "dying and rising god" mythotype common in the ancient world, where suffering and triumph over death were core themes.

As noted several times now by other posts, the non-Christian sources are highly suspect. These are not settled facts as you continue to try to claim.

At least you admit that the Infancy Narratives are fiction. This demonstrates that early Christians were perfectly willing and able to invent entire biographical narratives about Jesus when it suited their theological needs. Once we establish the authors are willing to create fiction, we must rigorously question every other claim using the same high standard of evidence.

The model that best explains all the evidence is the one that posits a mythical origin for Jesus. The consensus view requires special pleading and a willingness to ignore rigorous criticism.


+ more
Anonymous
Maurice Casey, an irreligious Emeritus Professor of New Testament Languages and Literature at the University of Nottingham, concludes in his book Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths? that "the whole idea that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist as a historical figure is verifiably false. Moreover, it has not been produced by anyone or anything with any reasonable relationship to critical scholarship. It belongs to the fantasy lives of people who used to be fundamentalist Christians. They did not believe in critical scholarship then, and they do not do so now. I cannot find any evidence that any of them have adequate professional qualifications."
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:Maurice Casey, an irreligious Emeritus Professor of New Testament Languages and Literature at the University of Nottingham, concludes in his book Jesus: Evidence and Argument or Mythicist Myths? that "the whole idea that Jesus of Nazareth did not exist as a historical figure is verifiably false. Moreover, it has not been produced by anyone or anything with any reasonable relationship to critical scholarship. It belongs to the fantasy lives of people who used to be fundamentalist Christians. They did not believe in critical scholarship then, and they do not do so now. I cannot find any evidence that any of them have adequate professional qualifications."


So you're saying that your AI responses are still incapable of creating an actual, direct response as the only thing it seems capable of is an appeal to authority argument 🙄

Anonymous
And what you are saying is that you know more than the experts.
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:And what you are saying is that you know more than the experts.


Why do you rely so much on those heavily biased "experts"? Are you that desperate for confirmation?

The fact is there is no independent evidence that he existed.

He may have existed - but given the lack of evidence we may never know one way or another.

Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:And what you are saying is that you know more than the experts.


Why do you rely so much on those heavily biased "experts"? Are you that desperate for confirmation?

The fact is there is no independent evidence that he existed.

He may have existed - but given the lack of evidence we may never know one way or another.



In the world of professional academia—among both secular and religious historians—this isn't actually a debated topic. The consensus is overwhelming that Jesus was a real person. Even the most skeptical secular scholars agree on the "Historical Jesus." The Big Two: Almost all historians agree on two facts: Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and he was crucified by order of Pontius Pilate.

Dr. Maurice Casey (Late Secular Scholar of New Testament)

Casey was a well-known non-Christian scholar who specialized in the Aramaic background of the New Testament.

On the "Mythicist" Movement:

"This view [that Jesus didn't exist] is demonstrably false. It is fuelled by a regrettable form of atheist prejudice... Most of its proponents are also extraordinarily incompetent." (From: "Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching")

Dr. E.P. Sanders (Highly Respected Liberal Scholar)
Sanders is considered one of the giants of 20th-century historical research.

"There are no substantial doubts about the general course of Jesus' life: when and where he lived, approximately when and where he died, and the sort of thing that he did during his public activity."

We have almost no "paperwork" for anyone from the 1st century. We have more copies of the New Testament documents than we do for the writings of Plato or Caesar.

While we haven't found "Jesus' house," archaeology has confirmed the existence of nearly every person, location, and political title mentioned in the Gospels (from the Pool of Siloam to the "Pilate Stone" confirming Pilate’s rank).


Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:And what you are saying is that you know more than the experts.


Why do you rely so much on those heavily biased "experts"? Are you that desperate for confirmation?

The fact is there is no independent evidence that he existed.

He may have existed - but given the lack of evidence we may never know one way or another.



I don’t rely on experts out of a need for confirmation, but rather to synthesize the current academic consensus. In the fields of secular history and classical studies, the consensus isn't built on "proof" in the mathematical sense, but on the probability of the available data.


The Nature of Ancient Evidence

For almost anyone living 2,000 years ago who wasn't an Emperor or a wealthy Senator, we have zero "independent" physical evidence (like archeological remains or contemporary DNA).

No "Primary" Sources: We have no writings from the person themselves and no eyewitness accounts written at the exact time of the events.

The "Standard" for Antiquity: If we applied a "zero-bias" rule to all ancient figures, we would have to doubt the existence of figures like Socrates, Hannibal, or Boudica, whose lives are also documented primarily by people with specific agendas or writing decades later.

Why Historians Lean Toward Existence

Most secular historians (not just theologians) argue for a "Historical Jesus" because it is actually harder to explain the data without him. They generally point to two main pillars:

The Pauline Epistles: Written within 20–30 years of the traditional date of death. Paul mentions meeting James, "the brother of the Lord." Historians argue it’s unlikely a fabricated myth would involve a living sibling known to the community.

The Criterion of Embarrassment: Early accounts include details that were actually "problems" for the early movement (like the person being from Nazareth—a place of no importance—or being executed as a criminal). If the story were a pure invention, creators usually "smooth out" those inconvenient details.



Anonymous
Did Peter exist?
Anonymous
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:
Anonymous wrote:And what you are saying is that you know more than the experts.


Why do you rely so much on those heavily biased "experts"? Are you that desperate for confirmation?

The fact is there is no independent evidence that he existed.

He may have existed - but given the lack of evidence we may never know one way or another.



In the world of professional academia—among both secular and religious historians—this isn't actually a debated topic. The consensus is overwhelming that Jesus was a real person. Even the most skeptical secular scholars agree on the "Historical Jesus." The Big Two: Almost all historians agree on two facts: Jesus was baptized by John the Baptist and he was crucified by order of Pontius Pilate.

Dr. Maurice Casey (Late Secular Scholar of New Testament)

Casey was a well-known non-Christian scholar who specialized in the Aramaic background of the New Testament.

On the "Mythicist" Movement:

"This view [that Jesus didn't exist] is demonstrably false. It is fuelled by a regrettable form of atheist prejudice... Most of its proponents are also extraordinarily incompetent." (From: "Jesus of Nazareth: An Independent Historian's Account of His Life and Teaching")

Dr. E.P. Sanders (Highly Respected Liberal Scholar)
Sanders is considered one of the giants of 20th-century historical research.

"There are no substantial doubts about the general course of Jesus' life: when and where he lived, approximately when and where he died, and the sort of thing that he did during his public activity."

We have almost no "paperwork" for anyone from the 1st century. We have more copies of the New Testament documents than we do for the writings of Plato or Caesar.

While we haven't found "Jesus' house," archaeology has confirmed the existence of nearly every person, location, and political title mentioned in the Gospels (from the Pool of Siloam to the "Pilate Stone" confirming Pilate’s rank).





These are bible scholars, not historians.

There is no independent evidence that he existed.

He may have existed - but given the lack of evidence we may never know one way or another.


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