Gen Xers - Do you find Taylor Swift’s music bland?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What are the young boys listening to these days?

My college kid is into EDM, which I was not expecting. My hs boys like Metro Boomin, Future, etc.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My 2nd grader has even been frustrated about how obsessed her friends are with TS.

Yesterday she asked me why they all love her so much. “They say she’s the best musician in the world. She’s not, right? Why are they so obsessed with her?”

Wow, your 2nd grader is so musically progressive. Are they always this critical of their friends?

She’s a really kind friend. She just doesn’t understand why they keep talking about what is to her a random person.

I have a 2nd grade DD too and she doesn't dislike TS at all and really likes some of her songs but has also expressed frustration about the level of obsession among her friends. DD listens to lots of different kinds of music though and a lot of her friends just went straight from the Disney musicals to TS with no side journeys and I get why this is annoying. It feels brainless. Not because TS is bad but because she's the biggest pop star in the world and "everyone likes her" and it feels like a substitute for developing your own tastes and interests. But I think the world is sort of set up to encourage kids to think this way -- so much of kids' media is about telling kids "this is what you should like now" instead of just exposing kids to different things and seeing what they enjoy.

I like TS fine but I do sometimes feel like discussion of her blots out everything else. I think this is why these threads devolve into sniping where some people are criticizing Swift and then the Swifties come in to refute every criticism. It's because of the expectation that "everyone" has to like her and also like everything about her. You aren't allowed to say "I like some of her music but I find her presence at NFL games annoying" or "I think TTPD is great but hated everything before it" or "I really liked her music when I was younger but it just doesn't speak to me anymore." If you say any of these things you will immediately have someone jumping on you and saying your qualified fandom is wrong and misogynistic. But I think those are all reasonable comments and I think if you made them about pretty much anyone else they would go unremarked upon. But with Swift they will be refuted. Why? It's just an opinion.

I think if you were to look at some of these threads, you will find many comments that people don’t respond to or take offense to. Even people who don’t like or say negative things about her. The things that I see being commented on and browbeaten are 3 variations on a theme I don’t see that about other artists:

1 is Taylor’s music sucks, and that her fans are just too stupid to know it. And then they will inevitably talk about all the cool artists that they like. And then I guess they’re just “countercultural” or something for not liking Taylor (Yes, someone up there actually used this term).

Gee I wonder why people would take offense to that or maybe take the time to respond to it? It’s condescending as hell.

2 is Very similar, but we don’t actually like her music, we are just being marketed to, and we only think we like her music. Fans are just too stupid to realize this, but they see the light thank goodness.

3 also similar is no, her music is good, it’s just that she has nothing to do with it and I guess it’s like 4 white males behind the curtains like the Wizard of Oz doing it all and she is just the brand. This one is my favorite because I love to think about The National’s Aaron Dessner in his kitchen in his flannel shirt penning the lyrics to So High School.

With other artists if people don’t like them they tend not to start 100 threads on them and berate their fans. I’m not big into Ed Sheeran and I don’t really understand why anyone would go to a concert, but when I found out a friend of mine was going, I didn’t spend a lot of time pondering why the hell would you do that, and run off to DCUM and start threads bashing Ed and his fans.

Like With anything, I’m sure in real life This would be much more nuanced and pleasant conversation and back-and-forth. It’s just the Internet everything just devolved. Seriously don’t know if most of my friends even like Taylor Swift or not.

Number 3 is a massive misrepresentation of what I argued.

It is a fact that she writes her lyrics and not really the music behind it. That’s what I argued. And yet you cast it as me saying Aaron Dessner wrote the words to So High School.

To be clear, I wasn’t accusing you of any of those three. I was saying, these are variations of the themes that I see in Taylor Swift threads started on this forum.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Gen X women think hating Taylor Swift is a personality and I will never understand

One of the Gen X PPs here to clarify that I only am neutral/meh about Taylor. Now her fans…

+1

I have not posted much in the thread but I don't actually have strong feelings about Swift as a person. Like others I have tried to get into her music because she seems to be the biggest thing going, but it just never clicks with me. I do like singer-songwriters like Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo so I don't think it's purely a generational thing.

But reading through the thread I am reminded that I find diehard Swifties really annoying. They take any critique of Swift so personally. I don't get it. I think there is a lot of over identification with her as a personal avatar and it's not healthy. She's just an artist and celeb.

Actually, I don’t really care whether people like her or not. I understand she is not everyone’s cup of tea. I think people mainly take issue with the criticisms that come from generalizations or ignorance, or even a dismissal of her themes as unimportant because they appeal to young women as though that is a bad thing. There’s a deeper body of work there underneath the radio hits. I understand not everyone has the time or willingness to listen to them. But many people still speak before they know.

Yep. It’s the obvious misogyny and impossible standards Taylor is held to that get some of us riled up.

Please stop with this nonsense. Critics have listed plenty of other female artists that they adore.

None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact. Or they’ve stayed in their lane and so they are acceptable.

I’m not accusing you or everyone as misogynistic but there is a lot of misogyny in some of the criticisms. And people respond to that and are accused as rabid and hysterical.

I'm not sure how you can say Beyonce and Rihanna can't touch her success. Rihanna was a billionaire 1st.

Didn’t you know? Taylor is unprecedented in every way.

Nobody is saying that and you sound crazy.

“None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact.”

Is that a reasonable statement in your mind?

Yes? It’s pretty unprecedented what she’s done in terms of her success. This is just objectively a fact.

Someone upthread mentioned rhianna and Beyoncé as comparisons in terms of success which I would agree with but they have also experienced ridiculous amounts of misogyny. I remember as soon as the news came out that Chris Brown had abused Rihanna, immediately someone on DCUM posted a thread that we should boycott all of Rihanna’s products and companies because she stayed with an abuser. And how awful of her. No mention, of course that we should boycott Brown, the actual abuser.

But yes, I guess it’s ridiculous to think that there’s any misogyny with any female artist ever. How silly of me!

To your first argument that it's fair to say no one else has "touched" Taylor's success and impact, please explain what it is about Taylor that is more successful and impactful than previous megastars. Other than sheer dollars earned-- it is the nature of the economy that new stars will always top the earnings of the last. There will be another artist whose tour makes more than Eras just like Eras topped previous tours.

But what is it about Taylor that makes you say that, for instance, Beyonce or Rhianna or Madonna or Britney or Mariah or even Cher or Tina Turner or Aretha Franklin, cannot "touch" her success and impact? Why does Taylor belong in a separate class, other than you simply liking her music more than theirs (there are going to be lots of people who prefer the music of one of those artists to Taylor as well).

Yes all female artists experience misogyny. Taylor is not the first and she also doesn't get it the worst-- much of what she's done owes a lot to paths cut by others on that list, or lessons Taylor learned from because of how other artists suffered.

Honestly, it’s like people can’t use the Google. Check out where she is as a best selling artist relative to the time she’s actually been in the business, or even alive.

But she’s not even close to the best selling artist alive.

Also not relative to the time she’s been active. The Beatles sold more records in their active career than she has.

and Rihanna has sold the most certified records.

Yes. Certified sales according to SoundScan, which started in 1991.

Before that, it’s harder to really track numbers, but the Beatles are overall the most, according to the systems in place at the time.

For older artists do they count 4x we bought the record, tape, CD, etc?

Every sale counts, yes of course. So if you bought an album in different formats, it counts as multiple sales.

That’s why it’s so impressive that Rihanna has such high sales. No one who started in 2000 or later even comes close. Eminem is next, and then Taylor Swift.

Makes sense. What about people who never buy and just stream on Spotify, I didn’t even know you could buy an album truthfully or how that works.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Gen X women think hating Taylor Swift is a personality and I will never understand

One of the Gen X PPs here to clarify that I only am neutral/meh about Taylor. Now her fans…

+1

I have not posted much in the thread but I don't actually have strong feelings about Swift as a person. Like others I have tried to get into her music because she seems to be the biggest thing going, but it just never clicks with me. I do like singer-songwriters like Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo so I don't think it's purely a generational thing.

But reading through the thread I am reminded that I find diehard Swifties really annoying. They take any critique of Swift so personally. I don't get it. I think there is a lot of over identification with her as a personal avatar and it's not healthy. She's just an artist and celeb.

Actually, I don’t really care whether people like her or not. I understand she is not everyone’s cup of tea. I think people mainly take issue with the criticisms that come from generalizations or ignorance, or even a dismissal of her themes as unimportant because they appeal to young women as though that is a bad thing. There’s a deeper body of work there underneath the radio hits. I understand not everyone has the time or willingness to listen to them. But many people still speak before they know.

Yep. It’s the obvious misogyny and impossible standards Taylor is held to that get some of us riled up.

Please stop with this nonsense. Critics have listed plenty of other female artists that they adore.

None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact. Or they’ve stayed in their lane and so they are acceptable.

I’m not accusing you or everyone as misogynistic but there is a lot of misogyny in some of the criticisms. And people respond to that and are accused as rabid and hysterical.

I'm not sure how you can say Beyonce and Rihanna can't touch her success. Rihanna was a billionaire 1st.

Didn’t you know? Taylor is unprecedented in every way.

Nobody is saying that and you sound crazy.

“None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact.”

Is that a reasonable statement in your mind?

Yes? It’s pretty unprecedented what she’s done in terms of her success. This is just objectively a fact.

Someone upthread mentioned rhianna and Beyoncé as comparisons in terms of success which I would agree with but they have also experienced ridiculous amounts of misogyny. I remember as soon as the news came out that Chris Brown had abused Rihanna, immediately someone on DCUM posted a thread that we should boycott all of Rihanna’s products and companies because she stayed with an abuser. And how awful of her. No mention, of course that we should boycott Brown, the actual abuser.

But yes, I guess it’s ridiculous to think that there’s any misogyny with any female artist ever. How silly of me!

To your first argument that it's fair to say no one else has "touched" Taylor's success and impact, please explain what it is about Taylor that is more successful and impactful than previous megastars. Other than sheer dollars earned-- it is the nature of the economy that new stars will always top the earnings of the last. There will be another artist whose tour makes more than Eras just like Eras topped previous tours.

But what is it about Taylor that makes you say that, for instance, Beyonce or Rhianna or Madonna or Britney or Mariah or even Cher or Tina Turner or Aretha Franklin, cannot "touch" her success and impact? Why does Taylor belong in a separate class, other than you simply liking her music more than theirs (there are going to be lots of people who prefer the music of one of those artists to Taylor as well).

Yes all female artists experience misogyny. Taylor is not the first and she also doesn't get it the worst-- much of what she's done owes a lot to paths cut by others on that list, or lessons Taylor learned from because of how other artists suffered.

Honestly, it’s like people can’t use the Google. Check out where she is as a best selling artist relative to the time she’s actually been in the business, or even alive.

But she’s not even close to the best selling artist alive.

Also not relative to the time she’s been active. The Beatles sold more records in their active career than she has.

and Rihanna has sold the most certified records.

Yes. Certified sales according to SoundScan, which started in 1991.

Before that, it’s harder to really track numbers, but the Beatles are overall the most, according to the systems in place at the time.

For older artists do they count 4x we bought the record, tape, CD, etc?

Every sale counts, yes of course. So if you bought an album in different formats, it counts as multiple sales.

That’s why it’s so impressive that Rihanna has such high sales. No one who started in 2000 or later even comes close. Eminem is next, and then Taylor Swift.

Makes sense. What about people who never buy and just stream on Spotify, I didn’t even know you could buy an album truthfully or how that works.

That’s why Taylor‘s album sales are even more impressive because very few people are buying albums these days and even the most popular bands struggle to hit platinum whereas 25 years ago, one hit wonders could still 2-3 million albums easily.

It actually sucks for artists now, cause it’s harder to make money that way, though I guess you could argue it’s easier for new artists to breakthrough because they have more ways to get their music out there besides just what radio stations are willing to play. So I guess it’s a mixed bag. But for most musicians if you want to make money, you really have to tour a lot.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My 2nd grader has even been frustrated about how obsessed her friends are with TS.

Yesterday she asked me why they all love her so much. “They say she’s the best musician in the world. She’s not, right? Why are they so obsessed with her?”

Wow, your 2nd grader is so musically progressive. Are they always this critical of their friends?

She’s a really kind friend. She just doesn’t understand why they keep talking about what is to her a random person.

I have a 2nd grade DD too and she doesn't dislike TS at all and really likes some of her songs but has also expressed frustration about the level of obsession among her friends. DD listens to lots of different kinds of music though and a lot of her friends just went straight from the Disney musicals to TS with no side journeys and I get why this is annoying. It feels brainless. Not because TS is bad but because she's the biggest pop star in the world and "everyone likes her" and it feels like a substitute for developing your own tastes and interests. But I think the world is sort of set up to encourage kids to think this way -- so much of kids' media is about telling kids "this is what you should like now" instead of just exposing kids to different things and seeing what they enjoy.

I like TS fine but I do sometimes feel like discussion of her blots out everything else. I think this is why these threads devolve into sniping where some people are criticizing Swift and then the Swifties come in to refute every criticism. It's because of the expectation that "everyone" has to like her and also like everything about her. You aren't allowed to say "I like some of her music but I find her presence at NFL games annoying" or "I think TTPD is great but hated everything before it" or "I really liked her music when I was younger but it just doesn't speak to me anymore." If you say any of these things you will immediately have someone jumping on you and saying your qualified fandom is wrong and misogynistic. But I think those are all reasonable comments and I think if you made them about pretty much anyone else they would go unremarked upon. But with Swift they will be refuted. Why? It's just an opinion.

I think if you were to look at some of these threads, you will find many comments that people don’t respond to or take offense to. Even people who don’t like or say negative things about her. The things that I see being commented on and browbeaten are 3 variations on a theme I don’t see that about other artists:

1 is Taylor’s music sucks, and that her fans are just too stupid to know it. And then they will inevitably talk about all the cool artists that they like. And then I guess they’re just “countercultural” or something for not liking Taylor (Yes, someone up there actually used this term).

Gee I wonder why people would take offense to that or maybe take the time to respond to it? It’s condescending as hell.

2 is Very similar, but we don’t actually like her music, we are just being marketed to, and we only think we like her music. Fans are just too stupid to realize this, but they see the light thank goodness.

3 also similar is no, her music is good, it’s just that she has nothing to do with it and I guess it’s like 4 white males behind the curtains like the Wizard of Oz doing it all and she is just the brand. This one is my favorite because I love to think about The National’s Aaron Dessner in his kitchen in his flannel shirt penning the lyrics to So High School.

With other artists if people don’t like them they tend not to start 100 threads on them and berate their fans. I’m not big into Ed Sheeran and I don’t really understand why anyone would go to a concert, but when I found out a friend of mine was going, I didn’t spend a lot of time pondering why the hell would you do that, and run off to DCUM and start threads bashing Ed and his fans.

Like With anything, I’m sure in real life This would be much more nuanced and pleasant conversation and back-and-forth. It’s just the Internet everything just devolved. Seriously don’t know if most of my friends even like Taylor Swift or not.

Number 3 is a massive misrepresentation of what I argued.

It is a fact that she writes her lyrics and not really the music behind it. That’s what I argued. And yet you cast it as me saying Aaron Dessner wrote the words to So High School.

To be clear, I wasn’t accusing you of any of those three. I was saying, these are variations of the themes that I see in Taylor Swift threads started on this forum.

A related theme is the willful ignorance of Taylor being transparent about and even heralding her music collaborators and in fact her fans are all very familiar with them. Jack was on stage with her in London for crying out loud. This willful ignorance allows critics to act like Taylor's songs are Milli Vanilli-level deception. Ok, that comparison was an exaggeration for my own amusement.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I’m curious as to what TS has done that’s unprecedented. This seems to be a claim by a lot of Swifties. There’s this notion that she is uniquely successful, influential, etc.

It’s not record sales. Among artists that started in the 2000s, Rihanna beats her. If you take Eminem (1999 start), he does too.

It’s not cultural impact. Madonna and MJ were enormous in their heyday.

It’s not impact on the music industry. The Beatles arguably began the notion of the rock band, had the first concept album, first major merchandising contracts, first stadium tour.

So what is it?

I disagree on cultural impact. A couple of months ago my husband and I who are both in our late 40s were telling our daughters about the night Michael Jackson first performed the moonwalk. And what a different time it was because the next day all of our classmates and teachers were talking about it.

It’s just so much harder in today’s pop cultural landscape, with kids maybe looking at TikTok and having their own streaming profile, and parents being on a totally different social media platform and a totally different streaming profile. We are all watching different shows, listening to different music more on our own little devices.

You can get on a plane and watch whatever you want, versus years ago it was one movie being shown. So I think it’s not just Taylor but the general landscape, it’s kind of crazy all the generations seem to know her and how much attention she gets.

Taylor’s vinyl album sales are also pretty insane for this day and age. Yes 30 years ago you would not have blinked, but the fact that there are so many young kids actually buying vinyl records because of her is pretty impressive.

Clearly there’s lots of other artists and pop culture figures who’ve had a huge impact and maybe even the same or similar or more, but she is definitely up there with them.

Vinyl sales went up before she started to really hit it big. Yes, she has had good vinyl sales, but part of that is because she puts out so many editions of her albums.

I think of her as a contemporary version of Madonna or another diva. I simply don’t see where she’s breaking new ground.

I love Madonna, and have been to some of her concerts. I just don’t see people talking about or reacting to Madonna concerts the same way they react to Taylor’s. The Eras tour seems a little unprecedented to me. Of course other artists have had hugely successful tours, I’m not trying to say they haven’t, but I guess I just don’t understand what we’re arguing about. Taylor is big and popular. I don’t understand why that’s controversial or even subjective.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Gen X women think hating Taylor Swift is a personality and I will never understand

One of the Gen X PPs here to clarify that I only am neutral/meh about Taylor. Now her fans…

+1

I have not posted much in the thread but I don't actually have strong feelings about Swift as a person. Like others I have tried to get into her music because she seems to be the biggest thing going, but it just never clicks with me. I do like singer-songwriters like Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo so I don't think it's purely a generational thing.

But reading through the thread I am reminded that I find diehard Swifties really annoying. They take any critique of Swift so personally. I don't get it. I think there is a lot of over identification with her as a personal avatar and it's not healthy. She's just an artist and celeb.

Actually, I don’t really care whether people like her or not. I understand she is not everyone’s cup of tea. I think people mainly take issue with the criticisms that come from generalizations or ignorance, or even a dismissal of her themes as unimportant because they appeal to young women as though that is a bad thing. There’s a deeper body of work there underneath the radio hits. I understand not everyone has the time or willingness to listen to them. But many people still speak before they know.

Yep. It’s the obvious misogyny and impossible standards Taylor is held to that get some of us riled up.

Please stop with this nonsense. Critics have listed plenty of other female artists that they adore.

None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact. Or they’ve stayed in their lane and so they are acceptable.

I’m not accusing you or everyone as misogynistic but there is a lot of misogyny in some of the criticisms. And people respond to that and are accused as rabid and hysterical.

I'm not sure how you can say Beyonce and Rihanna can't touch her success. Rihanna was a billionaire 1st.

Didn’t you know? Taylor is unprecedented in every way.

Nobody is saying that and you sound crazy.

“None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact.”

Is that a reasonable statement in your mind?

Yes? It’s pretty unprecedented what she’s done in terms of her success. This is just objectively a fact.

Someone upthread mentioned rhianna and Beyoncé as comparisons in terms of success which I would agree with but they have also experienced ridiculous amounts of misogyny. I remember as soon as the news came out that Chris Brown had abused Rihanna, immediately someone on DCUM posted a thread that we should boycott all of Rihanna’s products and companies because she stayed with an abuser. And how awful of her. No mention, of course that we should boycott Brown, the actual abuser.

But yes, I guess it’s ridiculous to think that there’s any misogyny with any female artist ever. How silly of me!

To your first argument that it's fair to say no one else has "touched" Taylor's success and impact, please explain what it is about Taylor that is more successful and impactful than previous megastars. Other than sheer dollars earned-- it is the nature of the economy that new stars will always top the earnings of the last. There will be another artist whose tour makes more than Eras just like Eras topped previous tours.

But what is it about Taylor that makes you say that, for instance, Beyonce or Rhianna or Madonna or Britney or Mariah or even Cher or Tina Turner or Aretha Franklin, cannot "touch" her success and impact? Why does Taylor belong in a separate class, other than you simply liking her music more than theirs (there are going to be lots of people who prefer the music of one of those artists to Taylor as well).

Yes all female artists experience misogyny. Taylor is not the first and she also doesn't get it the worst-- much of what she's done owes a lot to paths cut by others on that list, or lessons Taylor learned from because of how other artists suffered.

Honestly, it’s like people can’t use the Google. Check out where she is as a best selling artist relative to the time she’s actually been in the business, or even alive.

But she’s not even close to the best selling artist alive.

Also not relative to the time she’s been active. The Beatles sold more records in their active career than she has.

and Rihanna has sold the most certified records.

Yes. Certified sales according to SoundScan, which started in 1991.

Before that, it’s harder to really track numbers, but the Beatles are overall the most, according to the systems in place at the time.

For older artists do they count 4x we bought the record, tape, CD, etc?

Every sale counts, yes of course. So if you bought an album in different formats, it counts as multiple sales.

That’s why it’s so impressive that Rihanna has such high sales. No one who started in 2000 or later even comes close. Eminem is next, and then Taylor Swift.

Makes sense. What about people who never buy and just stream on Spotify, I didn’t even know you could buy an album truthfully or how that works.

You don’t know how to buy an album?

iTunes
Vinyl record online or in a store
CD online or in a store

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Gen X women think hating Taylor Swift is a personality and I will never understand

One of the Gen X PPs here to clarify that I only am neutral/meh about Taylor. Now her fans…

+1

I have not posted much in the thread but I don't actually have strong feelings about Swift as a person. Like others I have tried to get into her music because she seems to be the biggest thing going, but it just never clicks with me. I do like singer-songwriters like Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo so I don't think it's purely a generational thing.

But reading through the thread I am reminded that I find diehard Swifties really annoying. They take any critique of Swift so personally. I don't get it. I think there is a lot of over identification with her as a personal avatar and it's not healthy. She's just an artist and celeb.

Actually, I don’t really care whether people like her or not. I understand she is not everyone’s cup of tea. I think people mainly take issue with the criticisms that come from generalizations or ignorance, or even a dismissal of her themes as unimportant because they appeal to young women as though that is a bad thing. There’s a deeper body of work there underneath the radio hits. I understand not everyone has the time or willingness to listen to them. But many people still speak before they know.

Yep. It’s the obvious misogyny and impossible standards Taylor is held to that get some of us riled up.

Please stop with this nonsense. Critics have listed plenty of other female artists that they adore.

None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact. Or they’ve stayed in their lane and so they are acceptable.

I’m not accusing you or everyone as misogynistic but there is a lot of misogyny in some of the criticisms. And people respond to that and are accused as rabid and hysterical.

I'm not sure how you can say Beyonce and Rihanna can't touch her success. Rihanna was a billionaire 1st.

Didn’t you know? Taylor is unprecedented in every way.

Nobody is saying that and you sound crazy.

“None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact.”

Is that a reasonable statement in your mind?

Yes? It’s pretty unprecedented what she’s done in terms of her success. This is just objectively a fact.

Someone upthread mentioned rhianna and Beyoncé as comparisons in terms of success which I would agree with but they have also experienced ridiculous amounts of misogyny. I remember as soon as the news came out that Chris Brown had abused Rihanna, immediately someone on DCUM posted a thread that we should boycott all of Rihanna’s products and companies because she stayed with an abuser. And how awful of her. No mention, of course that we should boycott Brown, the actual abuser.

But yes, I guess it’s ridiculous to think that there’s any misogyny with any female artist ever. How silly of me!

To your first argument that it's fair to say no one else has "touched" Taylor's success and impact, please explain what it is about Taylor that is more successful and impactful than previous megastars. Other than sheer dollars earned-- it is the nature of the economy that new stars will always top the earnings of the last. There will be another artist whose tour makes more than Eras just like Eras topped previous tours.

But what is it about Taylor that makes you say that, for instance, Beyonce or Rhianna or Madonna or Britney or Mariah or even Cher or Tina Turner or Aretha Franklin, cannot "touch" her success and impact? Why does Taylor belong in a separate class, other than you simply liking her music more than theirs (there are going to be lots of people who prefer the music of one of those artists to Taylor as well).

Yes all female artists experience misogyny. Taylor is not the first and she also doesn't get it the worst-- much of what she's done owes a lot to paths cut by others on that list, or lessons Taylor learned from because of how other artists suffered.

Honestly, it’s like people can’t use the Google. Check out where she is as a best selling artist relative to the time she’s actually been in the business, or even alive.

But she’s not even close to the best selling artist alive.

Also not relative to the time she’s been active. The Beatles sold more records in their active career than she has.

and Rihanna has sold the most certified records.

Yes. Certified sales according to SoundScan, which started in 1991.

Before that, it’s harder to really track numbers, but the Beatles are overall the most, according to the systems in place at the time.

For older artists do they count 4x we bought the record, tape, CD, etc?

Every sale counts, yes of course. So if you bought an album in different formats, it counts as multiple sales.

That’s why it’s so impressive that Rihanna has such high sales. No one who started in 2000 or later even comes close. Eminem is next, and then Taylor Swift.

Makes sense. What about people who never buy and just stream on Spotify, I didn’t even know you could buy an album truthfully or how that works.

That’s why Taylor‘s album sales are even more impressive because very few people are buying albums these days and even the most popular bands struggle to hit platinum whereas 25 years ago, one hit wonders could still 2-3 million albums easily.

It actually sucks for artists now, cause it’s harder to make money that way, though I guess you could argue it’s easier for new artists to breakthrough because they have more ways to get their music out there besides just what radio stations are willing to play. So I guess it’s a mixed bag. But for most musicians if you want to make money, you really have to tour a lot.

The vast majority of tours don’t make much money at all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m curious as to what TS has done that’s unprecedented. This seems to be a claim by a lot of Swifties. There’s this notion that she is uniquely successful, influential, etc.

It’s not record sales. Among artists that started in the 2000s, Rihanna beats her. If you take Eminem (1999 start), he does too.

It’s not cultural impact. Madonna and MJ were enormous in their heyday.

It’s not impact on the music industry. The Beatles arguably began the notion of the rock band, had the first concept album, first major merchandising contracts, first stadium tour.

So what is it?

I disagree on cultural impact. A couple of months ago my husband and I who are both in our late 40s were telling our daughters about the night Michael Jackson first performed the moonwalk. And what a different time it was because the next day all of our classmates and teachers were talking about it.

It’s just so much harder in today’s pop cultural landscape, with kids maybe looking at TikTok and having their own streaming profile, and parents being on a totally different social media platform and a totally different streaming profile. We are all watching different shows, listening to different music more on our own little devices.

You can get on a plane and watch whatever you want, versus years ago it was one movie being shown. So I think it’s not just Taylor but the general landscape, it’s kind of crazy all the generations seem to know her and how much attention she gets.

Taylor’s vinyl album sales are also pretty insane for this day and age. Yes 30 years ago you would not have blinked, but the fact that there are so many young kids actually buying vinyl records because of her is pretty impressive.

Clearly there’s lots of other artists and pop culture figures who’ve had a huge impact and maybe even the same or similar or more, but she is definitely up there with them.

Vinyl sales went up before she started to really hit it big. Yes, she has had good vinyl sales, but part of that is because she puts out so many editions of her albums.

I think of her as a contemporary version of Madonna or another diva. I simply don’t see where she’s breaking new ground.

I love Madonna, and have been to some of her concerts. I just don’t see people talking about or reacting to Madonna concerts the same way they react to Taylor’s. The Eras tour seems a little unprecedented to me. Of course other artists have had hugely successful tours, I’m not trying to say they haven’t, but I guess I just don’t understand what we’re arguing about. Taylor is big and popular. I don’t understand why that’s controversial or even subjective.

I’m not disputing her success.

I’m wondering why her fans say she’s uniquely successful. I’m wondering why she was voted as one of the top guitarists of the last 20 years.

https://guitar.com/news/music-news/taylor-swift-8th-best-guitarist-of-last-two-decades/#:~:text=Red%20Hot%20Chili%20Peppers'%20John,a%20new%20poll%20by%20guitarguitar.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:My 2nd grader has even been frustrated about how obsessed her friends are with TS.

Yesterday she asked me why they all love her so much. “They say she’s the best musician in the world. She’s not, right? Why are they so obsessed with her?”

Wow, your 2nd grader is so musically progressive. Are they always this critical of their friends?

She’s a really kind friend. She just doesn’t understand why they keep talking about what is to her a random person.

I have a 2nd grade DD too and she doesn't dislike TS at all and really likes some of her songs but has also expressed frustration about the level of obsession among her friends. DD listens to lots of different kinds of music though and a lot of her friends just went straight from the Disney musicals to TS with no side journeys and I get why this is annoying. It feels brainless. Not because TS is bad but because she's the biggest pop star in the world and "everyone likes her" and it feels like a substitute for developing your own tastes and interests. But I think the world is sort of set up to encourage kids to think this way -- so much of kids' media is about telling kids "this is what you should like now" instead of just exposing kids to different things and seeing what they enjoy.

I like TS fine but I do sometimes feel like discussion of her blots out everything else. I think this is why these threads devolve into sniping where some people are criticizing Swift and then the Swifties come in to refute every criticism. It's because of the expectation that "everyone" has to like her and also like everything about her. You aren't allowed to say "I like some of her music but I find her presence at NFL games annoying" or "I think TTPD is great but hated everything before it" or "I really liked her music when I was younger but it just doesn't speak to me anymore." If you say any of these things you will immediately have someone jumping on you and saying your qualified fandom is wrong and misogynistic. But I think those are all reasonable comments and I think if you made them about pretty much anyone else they would go unremarked upon. But with Swift they will be refuted. Why? It's just an opinion.

I think if you were to look at some of these threads, you will find many comments that people don’t respond to or take offense to. Even people who don’t like or say negative things about her. The things that I see being commented on and browbeaten are 3 variations on a theme I don’t see that about other artists:

1 is Taylor’s music sucks, and that her fans are just too stupid to know it. And then they will inevitably talk about all the cool artists that they like. And then I guess they’re just “countercultural” or something for not liking Taylor (Yes, someone up there actually used this term).

Gee I wonder why people would take offense to that or maybe take the time to respond to it? It’s condescending as hell.

2 is Very similar, but we don’t actually like her music, we are just being marketed to, and we only think we like her music. Fans are just too stupid to realize this, but they see the light thank goodness.

3 also similar is no, her music is good, it’s just that she has nothing to do with it and I guess it’s like 4 white males behind the curtains like the Wizard of Oz doing it all and she is just the brand. This one is my favorite because I love to think about The National’s Aaron Dessner in his kitchen in his flannel shirt penning the lyrics to So High School.

With other artists if people don’t like them they tend not to start 100 threads on them and berate their fans. I’m not big into Ed Sheeran and I don’t really understand why anyone would go to a concert, but when I found out a friend of mine was going, I didn’t spend a lot of time pondering why the hell would you do that, and run off to DCUM and start threads bashing Ed and his fans.

Like With anything, I’m sure in real life This would be much more nuanced and pleasant conversation and back-and-forth. It’s just the Internet everything just devolved. Seriously don’t know if most of my friends even like Taylor Swift or not.

Number 3 is a massive misrepresentation of what I argued.

It is a fact that she writes her lyrics and not really the music behind it. That’s what I argued. And yet you cast it as me saying Aaron Dessner wrote the words to So High School.

To be clear, I wasn’t accusing you of any of those three. I was saying, these are variations of the themes that I see in Taylor Swift threads started on this forum.

A related theme is the willful ignorance of Taylor being transparent about and even heralding her music collaborators and in fact her fans are all very familiar with them. Jack was on stage with her in London for crying out loud. This willful ignorance allows critics to act like Taylor's songs are Milli Vanilli-level deception. Ok, that comparison was an exaggeration for my own amusement.

Yes, and it reminds me of the SAHM WOHM threads. My kids are teens so don’t go on general parenting anymore, but back in the day someone would start a thread about how all stay at home moms are braindead and worthless. Or all working moms are greedy and aren’t raising their kids.

People would come on to challenge either of those assumptions and then inevitably someone would post gosh, working moms are so defensive!!!!!

Uh you think?

I think if this were in real life, we could have more of a back and forth, but online people just say insane things seem to just want to make up things in and then when someone comes to defend them or say that’s not true, they are accused of being rabid fans and not letting anyone speak ill of Taylor.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Gen X women think hating Taylor Swift is a personality and I will never understand

One of the Gen X PPs here to clarify that I only am neutral/meh about Taylor. Now her fans…

+1

I have not posted much in the thread but I don't actually have strong feelings about Swift as a person. Like others I have tried to get into her music because she seems to be the biggest thing going, but it just never clicks with me. I do like singer-songwriters like Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo so I don't think it's purely a generational thing.

But reading through the thread I am reminded that I find diehard Swifties really annoying. They take any critique of Swift so personally. I don't get it. I think there is a lot of over identification with her as a personal avatar and it's not healthy. She's just an artist and celeb.

Actually, I don’t really care whether people like her or not. I understand she is not everyone’s cup of tea. I think people mainly take issue with the criticisms that come from generalizations or ignorance, or even a dismissal of her themes as unimportant because they appeal to young women as though that is a bad thing. There’s a deeper body of work there underneath the radio hits. I understand not everyone has the time or willingness to listen to them. But many people still speak before they know.

Yep. It’s the obvious misogyny and impossible standards Taylor is held to that get some of us riled up.

Please stop with this nonsense. Critics have listed plenty of other female artists that they adore.

None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact. Or they’ve stayed in their lane and so they are acceptable.

I’m not accusing you or everyone as misogynistic but there is a lot of misogyny in some of the criticisms. And people respond to that and are accused as rabid and hysterical.

I'm not sure how you can say Beyonce and Rihanna can't touch her success. Rihanna was a billionaire 1st.

Didn’t you know? Taylor is unprecedented in every way.

Nobody is saying that and you sound crazy.

“None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact.”

Is that a reasonable statement in your mind?

Yes? It’s pretty unprecedented what she’s done in terms of her success. This is just objectively a fact.

Someone upthread mentioned rhianna and Beyoncé as comparisons in terms of success which I would agree with but they have also experienced ridiculous amounts of misogyny. I remember as soon as the news came out that Chris Brown had abused Rihanna, immediately someone on DCUM posted a thread that we should boycott all of Rihanna’s products and companies because she stayed with an abuser. And how awful of her. No mention, of course that we should boycott Brown, the actual abuser.

But yes, I guess it’s ridiculous to think that there’s any misogyny with any female artist ever. How silly of me!

To your first argument that it's fair to say no one else has "touched" Taylor's success and impact, please explain what it is about Taylor that is more successful and impactful than previous megastars. Other than sheer dollars earned-- it is the nature of the economy that new stars will always top the earnings of the last. There will be another artist whose tour makes more than Eras just like Eras topped previous tours.

But what is it about Taylor that makes you say that, for instance, Beyonce or Rhianna or Madonna or Britney or Mariah or even Cher or Tina Turner or Aretha Franklin, cannot "touch" her success and impact? Why does Taylor belong in a separate class, other than you simply liking her music more than theirs (there are going to be lots of people who prefer the music of one of those artists to Taylor as well).

Yes all female artists experience misogyny. Taylor is not the first and she also doesn't get it the worst-- much of what she's done owes a lot to paths cut by others on that list, or lessons Taylor learned from because of how other artists suffered.

Honestly, it’s like people can’t use the Google. Check out where she is as a best selling artist relative to the time she’s actually been in the business, or even alive.

But she’s not even close to the best selling artist alive.

Also not relative to the time she’s been active. The Beatles sold more records in their active career than she has.

and Rihanna has sold the most certified records.

Yes. Certified sales according to SoundScan, which started in 1991.

Before that, it’s harder to really track numbers, but the Beatles are overall the most, according to the systems in place at the time.

For older artists do they count 4x we bought the record, tape, CD, etc?

Every sale counts, yes of course. So if you bought an album in different formats, it counts as multiple sales.

That’s why it’s so impressive that Rihanna has such high sales. No one who started in 2000 or later even comes close. Eminem is next, and then Taylor Swift.

Makes sense. What about people who never buy and just stream on Spotify, I didn’t even know you could buy an album truthfully or how that works.

You don’t know how to buy an album?

iTunes
Vinyl record online or in a store
CD online or in a store

Record players are like typewriters, who owns a record player anyway - I know hipsters but really?
iTunes - why ? Why not just stream it? What happens to it when iTunes goes away?
CD? Cars don’t even have CDS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I’m curious as to what TS has done that’s unprecedented. This seems to be a claim by a lot of Swifties. There’s this notion that she is uniquely successful, influential, etc.

It’s not record sales. Among artists that started in the 2000s, Rihanna beats her. If you take Eminem (1999 start), he does too.

It’s not cultural impact. Madonna and MJ were enormous in their heyday.

It’s not impact on the music industry. The Beatles arguably began the notion of the rock band, had the first concept album, first major merchandising contracts, first stadium tour.

So what is it?

I disagree on cultural impact. A couple of months ago my husband and I who are both in our late 40s were telling our daughters about the night Michael Jackson first performed the moonwalk. And what a different time it was because the next day all of our classmates and teachers were talking about it.

It’s just so much harder in today’s pop cultural landscape, with kids maybe looking at TikTok and having their own streaming profile, and parents being on a totally different social media platform and a totally different streaming profile. We are all watching different shows, listening to different music more on our own little devices.

You can get on a plane and watch whatever you want, versus years ago it was one movie being shown. So I think it’s not just Taylor but the general landscape, it’s kind of crazy all the generations seem to know her and how much attention she gets.

Taylor’s vinyl album sales are also pretty insane for this day and age. Yes 30 years ago you would not have blinked, but the fact that there are so many young kids actually buying vinyl records because of her is pretty impressive.

Clearly there’s lots of other artists and pop culture figures who’ve had a huge impact and maybe even the same or similar or more, but she is definitely up there with them.

Vinyl sales went up before she started to really hit it big. Yes, she has had good vinyl sales, but part of that is because she puts out so many editions of her albums.

I think of her as a contemporary version of Madonna or another diva. I simply don’t see where she’s breaking new ground.

I love Madonna, and have been to some of her concerts. I just don’t see people talking about or reacting to Madonna concerts the same way they react to Taylor’s. The Eras tour seems a little unprecedented to me. Of course other artists have had hugely successful tours, I’m not trying to say they haven’t, but I guess I just don’t understand what we’re arguing about. Taylor is big and popular. I don’t understand why that’s controversial or even subjective.

I’m not disputing her success.

I’m wondering why her fans say she’s uniquely successful. I’m wondering why she was voted as one of the top guitarists of the last 20 years.

https://guitar.com/news/music-news/taylor-swift-8th-best-guitarist-of-last-two-decades/#:~:text=Red%20Hot%20Chili%20Peppers'%20John,a%20new%20poll%20by%20guitarguitar.

Well, that I can’t answer. I’m a fan but I would not say she’s one of the top 20 guitarists lol.

I assume that’s a stupid Internet poll that means nothing.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:Gen X women think hating Taylor Swift is a personality and I will never understand

One of the Gen X PPs here to clarify that I only am neutral/meh about Taylor. Now her fans…

+1

I have not posted much in the thread but I don't actually have strong feelings about Swift as a person. Like others I have tried to get into her music because she seems to be the biggest thing going, but it just never clicks with me. I do like singer-songwriters like Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo so I don't think it's purely a generational thing.

But reading through the thread I am reminded that I find diehard Swifties really annoying. They take any critique of Swift so personally. I don't get it. I think there is a lot of over identification with her as a personal avatar and it's not healthy. She's just an artist and celeb.

Actually, I don’t really care whether people like her or not. I understand she is not everyone’s cup of tea. I think people mainly take issue with the criticisms that come from generalizations or ignorance, or even a dismissal of her themes as unimportant because they appeal to young women as though that is a bad thing. There’s a deeper body of work there underneath the radio hits. I understand not everyone has the time or willingness to listen to them. But many people still speak before they know.

Yep. It’s the obvious misogyny and impossible standards Taylor is held to that get some of us riled up.

Please stop with this nonsense. Critics have listed plenty of other female artists that they adore.

None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact. Or they’ve stayed in their lane and so they are acceptable.

I’m not accusing you or everyone as misogynistic but there is a lot of misogyny in some of the criticisms. And people respond to that and are accused as rabid and hysterical.

I'm not sure how you can say Beyonce and Rihanna can't touch her success. Rihanna was a billionaire 1st.

Didn’t you know? Taylor is unprecedented in every way.

Nobody is saying that and you sound crazy.

“None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact.”

Is that a reasonable statement in your mind?

Yes? It’s pretty unprecedented what she’s done in terms of her success. This is just objectively a fact.

Someone upthread mentioned rhianna and Beyoncé as comparisons in terms of success which I would agree with but they have also experienced ridiculous amounts of misogyny. I remember as soon as the news came out that Chris Brown had abused Rihanna, immediately someone on DCUM posted a thread that we should boycott all of Rihanna’s products and companies because she stayed with an abuser. And how awful of her. No mention, of course that we should boycott Brown, the actual abuser.

But yes, I guess it’s ridiculous to think that there’s any misogyny with any female artist ever. How silly of me!

To your first argument that it's fair to say no one else has "touched" Taylor's success and impact, please explain what it is about Taylor that is more successful and impactful than previous megastars. Other than sheer dollars earned-- it is the nature of the economy that new stars will always top the earnings of the last. There will be another artist whose tour makes more than Eras just like Eras topped previous tours.

But what is it about Taylor that makes you say that, for instance, Beyonce or Rhianna or Madonna or Britney or Mariah or even Cher or Tina Turner or Aretha Franklin, cannot "touch" her success and impact? Why does Taylor belong in a separate class, other than you simply liking her music more than theirs (there are going to be lots of people who prefer the music of one of those artists to Taylor as well).

Yes all female artists experience misogyny. Taylor is not the first and she also doesn't get it the worst-- much of what she's done owes a lot to paths cut by others on that list, or lessons Taylor learned from because of how other artists suffered.

Honestly, it’s like people can’t use the Google. Check out where she is as a best selling artist relative to the time she’s actually been in the business, or even alive.

But she’s not even close to the best selling artist alive.

Also not relative to the time she’s been active. The Beatles sold more records in their active career than she has.

and Rihanna has sold the most certified records.

Yes. Certified sales according to SoundScan, which started in 1991.

Before that, it’s harder to really track numbers, but the Beatles are overall the most, according to the systems in place at the time.

For older artists do they count 4x we bought the record, tape, CD, etc?

Every sale counts, yes of course. So if you bought an album in different formats, it counts as multiple sales.

That’s why it’s so impressive that Rihanna has such high sales. No one who started in 2000 or later even comes close. Eminem is next, and then Taylor Swift.

Makes sense. What about people who never buy and just stream on Spotify, I didn’t even know you could buy an album truthfully or how that works.

You don’t know how to buy an album?

iTunes
Vinyl record online or in a store
CD online or in a store

Record players are like typewriters, who owns a record player anyway - I know hipsters but really?
iTunes - why ? Why not just stream it? What happens to it when iTunes goes away?
CD? Cars don’t even have CDS.

Have you been living under a rock? Vinyl sales topped a billion last year.

What happens when iTunes goes away? You own the file. What happens when Spotify goes away? You’re screwed.

You really seem ignorant.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gen X women think hating Taylor Swift is a personality and I will never understand

One of the Gen X PPs here to clarify that I only am neutral/meh about Taylor. Now her fans…

+1

I have not posted much in the thread but I don't actually have strong feelings about Swift as a person. Like others I have tried to get into her music because she seems to be the biggest thing going, but it just never clicks with me. I do like singer-songwriters like Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo so I don't think it's purely a generational thing.

But reading through the thread I am reminded that I find diehard Swifties really annoying. They take any critique of Swift so personally. I don't get it. I think there is a lot of over identification with her as a personal avatar and it's not healthy. She's just an artist and celeb.

Actually, I don’t really care whether people like her or not. I understand she is not everyone’s cup of tea. I think people mainly take issue with the criticisms that come from generalizations or ignorance, or even a dismissal of her themes as unimportant because they appeal to young women as though that is a bad thing. There’s a deeper body of work there underneath the radio hits. I understand not everyone has the time or willingness to listen to them. But many people still speak before they know.

Yep. It’s the obvious misogyny and impossible standards Taylor is held to that get some of us riled up.

Please stop with this nonsense. Critics have listed plenty of other female artists that they adore.

None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact. Or they’ve stayed in their lane and so they are acceptable.

I’m not accusing you or everyone as misogynistic but there is a lot of misogyny in some of the criticisms. And people respond to that and are accused as rabid and hysterical.

I'm not sure how you can say Beyonce and Rihanna can't touch her success. Rihanna was a billionaire 1st.

Didn’t you know? Taylor is unprecedented in every way.

Nobody is saying that and you sound crazy.

“None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact.”

Is that a reasonable statement in your mind?

Yes? It’s pretty unprecedented what she’s done in terms of her success. This is just objectively a fact.

Someone upthread mentioned rhianna and Beyoncé as comparisons in terms of success which I would agree with but they have also experienced ridiculous amounts of misogyny. I remember as soon as the news came out that Chris Brown had abused Rihanna, immediately someone on DCUM posted a thread that we should boycott all of Rihanna’s products and companies because she stayed with an abuser. And how awful of her. No mention, of course that we should boycott Brown, the actual abuser.

But yes, I guess it’s ridiculous to think that there’s any misogyny with any female artist ever. How silly of me!

To your first argument that it's fair to say no one else has "touched" Taylor's success and impact, please explain what it is about Taylor that is more successful and impactful than previous megastars. Other than sheer dollars earned-- it is the nature of the economy that new stars will always top the earnings of the last. There will be another artist whose tour makes more than Eras just like Eras topped previous tours.

But what is it about Taylor that makes you say that, for instance, Beyonce or Rhianna or Madonna or Britney or Mariah or even Cher or Tina Turner or Aretha Franklin, cannot "touch" her success and impact? Why does Taylor belong in a separate class, other than you simply liking her music more than theirs (there are going to be lots of people who prefer the music of one of those artists to Taylor as well).

Yes all female artists experience misogyny. Taylor is not the first and she also doesn't get it the worst-- much of what she's done owes a lot to paths cut by others on that list, or lessons Taylor learned from because of how other artists suffered.

Honestly, it’s like people can’t use the Google. Check out where she is as a best selling artist relative to the time she’s actually been in the business, or even alive.

But she’s not even close to the best selling artist alive.

Also not relative to the time she’s been active. The Beatles sold more records in their active career than she has.

and Rihanna has sold the most certified records.

Yes. Certified sales according to SoundScan, which started in 1991.

Before that, it’s harder to really track numbers, but the Beatles are overall the most, according to the systems in place at the time.

For older artists do they count 4x we bought the record, tape, CD, etc?

Every sale counts, yes of course. So if you bought an album in different formats, it counts as multiple sales.

That’s why it’s so impressive that Rihanna has such high sales. No one who started in 2000 or later even comes close. Eminem is next, and then Taylor Swift.

Makes sense. What about people who never buy and just stream on Spotify, I didn’t even know you could buy an album truthfully or how that works.

You don’t know how to buy an album?

iTunes
Vinyl record online or in a store
CD online or in a store

Record players are like typewriters, who owns a record player anyway - I know hipsters but really?
iTunes - why ? Why not just stream it? What happens to it when iTunes goes away?
CD? Cars don’t even have CDS.

Have you been living under a rock? Vinyl sales topped a billion last year.

What happens when iTunes goes away? You own the file. What happens when Spotify goes away? You’re screwed.

You really seem ignorant.

Thank you to all the hoarders for keeping vinyls from going in landfills .

Vinyls are like TS a passing fancy ;-).

You download the iTunes file? And put it where?

I don’t buy albums so when Spotify goes away I use the next streaming service to stream it.

Are VHS sales up too?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Gen X women think hating Taylor Swift is a personality and I will never understand

One of the Gen X PPs here to clarify that I only am neutral/meh about Taylor. Now her fans…

+1

I have not posted much in the thread but I don't actually have strong feelings about Swift as a person. Like others I have tried to get into her music because she seems to be the biggest thing going, but it just never clicks with me. I do like singer-songwriters like Billie Eilish and Olivia Rodrigo so I don't think it's purely a generational thing.

But reading through the thread I am reminded that I find diehard Swifties really annoying. They take any critique of Swift so personally. I don't get it. I think there is a lot of over identification with her as a personal avatar and it's not healthy. She's just an artist and celeb.

Actually, I don’t really care whether people like her or not. I understand she is not everyone’s cup of tea. I think people mainly take issue with the criticisms that come from generalizations or ignorance, or even a dismissal of her themes as unimportant because they appeal to young women as though that is a bad thing. There’s a deeper body of work there underneath the radio hits. I understand not everyone has the time or willingness to listen to them. But many people still speak before they know.

Yep. It’s the obvious misogyny and impossible standards Taylor is held to that get some of us riled up.

Please stop with this nonsense. Critics have listed plenty of other female artists that they adore.

None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact. Or they’ve stayed in their lane and so they are acceptable.

I’m not accusing you or everyone as misogynistic but there is a lot of misogyny in some of the criticisms. And people respond to that and are accused as rabid and hysterical.

I'm not sure how you can say Beyonce and Rihanna can't touch her success. Rihanna was a billionaire 1st.

Didn’t you know? Taylor is unprecedented in every way.

Nobody is saying that and you sound crazy.

“None them have touched Taylor’s success and impact.”

Is that a reasonable statement in your mind?

Yes? It’s pretty unprecedented what she’s done in terms of her success. This is just objectively a fact.

Someone upthread mentioned rhianna and Beyoncé as comparisons in terms of success which I would agree with but they have also experienced ridiculous amounts of misogyny. I remember as soon as the news came out that Chris Brown had abused Rihanna, immediately someone on DCUM posted a thread that we should boycott all of Rihanna’s products and companies because she stayed with an abuser. And how awful of her. No mention, of course that we should boycott Brown, the actual abuser.

But yes, I guess it’s ridiculous to think that there’s any misogyny with any female artist ever. How silly of me!

To your first argument that it's fair to say no one else has "touched" Taylor's success and impact, please explain what it is about Taylor that is more successful and impactful than previous megastars. Other than sheer dollars earned-- it is the nature of the economy that new stars will always top the earnings of the last. There will be another artist whose tour makes more than Eras just like Eras topped previous tours.

But what is it about Taylor that makes you say that, for instance, Beyonce or Rhianna or Madonna or Britney or Mariah or even Cher or Tina Turner or Aretha Franklin, cannot "touch" her success and impact? Why does Taylor belong in a separate class, other than you simply liking her music more than theirs (there are going to be lots of people who prefer the music of one of those artists to Taylor as well).

Yes all female artists experience misogyny. Taylor is not the first and she also doesn't get it the worst-- much of what she's done owes a lot to paths cut by others on that list, or lessons Taylor learned from because of how other artists suffered.

Honestly, it’s like people can’t use the Google. Check out where she is as a best selling artist relative to the time she’s actually been in the business, or even alive.

But she’s not even close to the best selling artist alive.

Also not relative to the time she’s been active. The Beatles sold more records in their active career than she has.

and Rihanna has sold the most certified records.

Yes. Certified sales according to SoundScan, which started in 1991.

Before that, it’s harder to really track numbers, but the Beatles are overall the most, according to the systems in place at the time.

For older artists do they count 4x we bought the record, tape, CD, etc?

Every sale counts, yes of course. So if you bought an album in different formats, it counts as multiple sales.

That’s why it’s so impressive that Rihanna has such high sales. No one who started in 2000 or later even comes close. Eminem is next, and then Taylor Swift.

Makes sense. What about people who never buy and just stream on Spotify, I didn’t even know you could buy an album truthfully or how that works.

You don’t know how to buy an album?

iTunes
Vinyl record online or in a store
CD online or in a store

Record players are like typewriters, who owns a record player anyway - I know hipsters but really?
iTunes - why ? Why not just stream it? What happens to it when iTunes goes away?
CD? Cars don’t even have CDS.

Have you been living under a rock? Vinyl sales topped a billion last year.

What happens when iTunes goes away? You own the file. What happens when Spotify goes away? You’re screwed.

You really seem ignorant.

Thank you to all the hoarders for keeping vinyls from going in landfills .

Vinyls are like TS a passing fancy ;-).

You download the iTunes file? And put it where?

I don’t buy albums so when Spotify goes away I use the next streaming service to stream it.

Are VHS sales up too?

You have to be a troll. No one is this stupid.