NYTs: if affirmative action goes, say buy-bye to legacy, EA/ED, and most athletic preferences

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The end of affirmative action will be a great day in America. I heard a great speech about content of character and not the color of ones skin once. I was really good.

That was a great speech. And affirmative action was introduced to help people remember it.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The end of affirmative action will be a great day in America. I heard a great speech about content of character and not the color of ones skin once. I was really good.

That was a great speech. And affirmative action was introduced to help people remember it.

It's helping rich Blacks and Hispanics and immigrants from Nigeria.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:They can’t get rid of athletic preferences or they won’t be able to field a team. It makes no sense.

I still don’t see how colleges won’t be able to still keep doing it with.holistic admissions . The whole process is such a random crapshoot anyway,

Maybe sports really shouldn't be that important to colleges. Much better things to spend the money on.

It's customer-driven, and you don't get to decide where I should spend my money.

what customer? if they want to be business, they should pay taxes like businesses and don't get any State/Federal supports

I am the customer. I am full-pay for multiple kids. I get to choose who gets my money. Others have the same choice. If a school wants that money, they better provide the product I want. Otherwise that money goes to their competitor.

Ok, how much are you paying per year. How much is a football team making from season ticket holders, their conference's TV deal, even donors who only care about football or basketball?

For the elite D3 schools with sports, it's the full-paying customers like me that ensure sports always be there. Those schools will need to ensure that their teams are filled, and athletes will have a preference in admissions.

Money is money. The schools can collect it from the nerds as easily as the jocks.

No they can't. Tickets don't sell quite as quickly or as high priced for the Integration Bee.

Sorry, but no one buys any tickets to D3 sports. No one knows or cares about any of the competitions, except for the few people involved. That goes for most D1 and D2 competitions as well

D3 sports doesn't collect money from ticket sales. They collect money from full-pay students, which skew heavily towards athletes. It's a market, and those full-pay students get to choose where they spend their money. And for the foolish notion that somehow non-athletes would just fill those full-pay slots....if that were true, schools with no athletic departments like Olin College would have people beating down their doors...it isn't happening.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:College admissions workers are miserable racists. They hate poor white people.

+1

Do a lot of "poor white people" even apply to selective colleges?

It's not like a whole bunch of kids from Appalachia are pining to go to HYPS.



Probably not. Community colleges maybe.

Do a lot of "poor Black people" even apply to selective colleges?

It's not like a whole bunch of kids from the inner city are pining to go to HYPS.

Probably not. Community colleges maybe

**see what I did there? Comments like yours exemplify the prejudice that many coastal liberals have against poor white people.

Whites have had advantages in America since birth. Generations had a leg up based on free labor from slavery. No excuses. Many of the poor in small towns remain ignorant, insular, grievance-filled and racist - especially in much of the southern states ( not talking immigrants from Europe here).

Not prejudice. Just the truth.

There are now a lot of liberals who agree with everything you just said but still see AA as a counterproductive policy. The existence of anti-Black racism and its profound impact on the achievement gap is not really in question. What is in question is whether AA can possibly be implemented in a fair way and whether it really achieves its aims. No, and no.

So what is the answer? Ignore it?

Of course not. The answer is for Black people to prioritize education, study hard and compete. Even if the playing field isn’t fair, which is true for many groups. This is society’s problem, but it is not society’s problem to solve. It’s a Black problem with a Black solution.

I like this logic. The next time I run someone over with my car I’ll tell them the solution was for them to have prioritized getting out of my way. Even though it is unfair to hit them with a two ton vehicle that’s not my problem to solve. It’s their problem.

You would hopefully agree that the most important question is not who is at fault, but what is the most effective way to avoid an accident. That is the analogy here. Our society is at fault. That doesn't mean that we can fix the problem.

When the accident had already happened, our entire justice system is geared towards determining who is at fault. If society is at fault, then it’s up to society to fix it. Or do you only believe in responsibility and accountability for the victims?

Justice and effectiveness are two different matters. On justice / fault, we agree. On effectiveness, there is really only so much that external help can do. To continue your analogy, you got hit by a car. You're in a hospital doing therapy. It sucks that it's true, and it's not fair, but really the only way for that therapy to work is for you to put in the effort. It has to be you, nobody else can do it. Again, concede not fair. That's not the point.

Well the guy who hit me with their car is paying for my hospital bills, my therapy, my lost wages and my pain and suffering. So if you prefer straight reparations to affirmative action I guess you’ve made the case.

If your theory of AA is that it is compensatory, this works. Assuming the people actually compensated are disadvantaged, which in practice is dubious. If it's supposed to change things, it seems to be failing.

How is it failing? Because you personally don’t think the recipients are deserving?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Athletics exist because there is money to be made in college sports.

Not in college sports. In big time football and mens basketball. You think the LAX team, the squash team and the diving team make money for a college? Not revenue sports are already being cut. Big time. And given the demographic cliff, the interest in supporting low income and first gen students the out of control costs that make private colleges impossible for more and more kids and the need to balance the budget, carrying a squash or water polo Texan (while charging above $80k a year) is going to become less frequent.

https://theconversation.com/colleges-are-eliminating-sports-teams-and-runners-and-golfers-are-paying-more-of-a-price-than-football-or-basketball-players-148965

https://www.washingtonian.com/2020/07/31/george-washington-university-cuts-7-athletic-programs-citing-pandemic/ (7 sports at GW, $200M saved)

It might not be a revenue raising sport on its own, but dropping any team will lead to no more donations from alumni who were on that team.

Who cares? Are those donors supporting the entire cost of the team? And those donors will eventually be replaced by other alums who give. The donor argument has little basis in fact.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
The incredible thing is that so many Asian Americans are voting for this racial discrimination to continue.

Poor Asian kids, what parents they got.

It's not the parents, many of whom don't vote. The kids are even more supportive of voting for this.
The parents largely aren't aware of the issue, or any issues, except what Jagan or Modi is up to.

You white prior can keep trying to turn us against other minorities but Asians know exactly how you feel. Use us to get as a proxy to fight this war but then shut us out of the executive offices and the country clubs. Oh, and blame us for COVID.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Athletics exist because there is money to be made in college sports.

Not in college sports. In big time football and mens basketball. You think the LAX team, the squash team and the diving team make money for a college? Not revenue sports are already being cut. Big time. And given the demographic cliff, the interest in supporting low income and first gen students the out of control costs that make private colleges impossible for more and more kids and the need to balance the budget, carrying a squash or water polo Texan (while charging above $80k a year) is going to become less frequent.

https://theconversation.com/colleges-are-eliminating-sports-teams-and-runners-and-golfers-are-paying-more-of-a-price-than-football-or-basketball-players-148965

https://www.washingtonian.com/2020/07/31/george-washington-university-cuts-7-athletic-programs-citing-pandemic/ (7 sports at GW, $200M saved)

It might not be a revenue raising sport on its own, but dropping any team will lead to no more donations from alumni who were on that team.

Who cares? Are those donors supporting the entire cost of the team? And those donors will eventually be replaced by other alums who give. The donor argument has little basis in fact.

The schools and their boards obviously care, but if you know better than maybe they aren't aware. Have you considered e-mailing them with your insights?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Athletics exist because there is money to be made in college sports.

Not in college sports. In big time football and mens basketball. You think the LAX team, the squash team and the diving team make money for a college? Not revenue sports are already being cut. Big time. And given the demographic cliff, the interest in supporting low income and first gen students the out of control costs that make private colleges impossible for more and more kids and the need to balance the budget, carrying a squash or water polo Texan (while charging above $80k a year) is going to become less frequent.

https://theconversation.com/colleges-are-eliminating-sports-teams-and-runners-and-golfers-are-paying-more-of-a-price-than-football-or-basketball-players-148965

https://www.washingtonian.com/2020/07/31/george-washington-university-cuts-7-athletic-programs-citing-pandemic/ (7 sports at GW, $200M saved)

It might not be a revenue raising sport on its own, but dropping any team will lead to no more donations from alumni who were on that team.

Who cares? Are those donors supporting the entire cost of the team? And those donors will eventually be replaced by other alums who give. The donor argument has little basis in fact.

The schools and their boards obviously care, but if you know better than maybe they aren't aware. Have you considered e-mailing them with your insights?

If that’s your argument then you can’t question any aspect of college admissions because that’s what the schools care about too. I can agree with that.

[Anonymous]

I really want to hear someone defend athletic recruiting to elite schools, considering how expensive and therefore exclusionary the travel, parental involvement and training required for a child to be recruitable are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am fine with that. College admissions needs a massive overhaul.

Depending on what the Supreme Court says, one of the biggest changes will be elimination of any sort of “Women in STEM” outreach programs, preferences, or scholarships.

Be careful what you (ignorantly) wish for.

Sure. Unless you are an Asian American woman. What this article fails to mention is that the whole college admissions process has been blatantly racist against Asians. Also since we are talking about women girls in general are disadvantaged under admissions to make way for more males that are less qualified. Again college admission here needs an overhaul. Many other countries rely on other meritocratic measures for competitive college admissions and I am all for that.

Curious which countries you are referring that have meritocratic methods?

DP: the vast majority of European and Asian countries. And that's why as a society they tend to be more fair than we are.

In what ways are Asian countries more fair than the US?

And how is rewarding those with the highest test scores fair to those kids who don't have as much time to study for the exams because their family needs them to work?

Maintaining a high GPA is far more difficult for students that work throughout the week than standardized tests.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really want to hear someone defend athletic recruiting to elite schools, considering how expensive and therefore exclusionary the travel, parental involvement and training required for a child to be recruitable are.

All the money in the world wont turn a slob into a college level wide receiver or shooting guard. Parents who think that it will are delusional.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:College admissions workers are miserable racists. They hate poor white people.

+1

Do a lot of "poor white people" even apply to selective colleges?

It's not like a whole bunch of kids from Appalachia are pining to go to HYPS.



Probably not. Community colleges maybe.

Do a lot of "poor Black people" even apply to selective colleges?

It's not like a whole bunch of kids from the inner city are pining to go to HYPS.

Probably not. Community colleges maybe

**see what I did there? Comments like yours exemplify the prejudice that many coastal liberals have against poor white people.

Whites have had advantages in America since birth. Generations had a leg up based on free labor from slavery. No excuses. Many of the poor in small towns remain ignorant, insular, grievance-filled and racist - especially in much of the southern states ( not talking immigrants from Europe here).

Not prejudice. Just the truth.

There are now a lot of liberals who agree with everything you just said but still see AA as a counterproductive policy. The existence of anti-Black racism and its profound impact on the achievement gap is not really in question. What is in question is whether AA can possibly be implemented in a fair way and whether it really achieves its aims. No, and no.

So what is the answer? Ignore it?

Of course not. The answer is for Black people to prioritize education, study hard and compete. Even if the playing field isn’t fair, which is true for many groups. This is society’s problem, but it is not society’s problem to solve. It’s a Black problem with a Black solution.

I like this logic. The next time I run someone over with my car I’ll tell them the solution was for them to have prioritized getting out of my way. Even though it is unfair to hit them with a two ton vehicle that’s not my problem to solve. It’s their problem.

You would hopefully agree that the most important question is not who is at fault, but what is the most effective way to avoid an accident. That is the analogy here. Our society is at fault. That doesn't mean that we can fix the problem.

When the accident had already happened, our entire justice system is geared towards determining who is at fault. If society is at fault, then it’s up to society to fix it. Or do you only believe in responsibility and accountability for the victims?

Justice and effectiveness are two different matters. On justice / fault, we agree. On effectiveness, there is really only so much that external help can do. To continue your analogy, you got hit by a car. You're in a hospital doing therapy. It sucks that it's true, and it's not fair, but really the only way for that therapy to work is for you to put in the effort. It has to be you, nobody else can do it. Again, concede not fair. That's not the point.

Well the guy who hit me with their car is paying for my hospital bills, my therapy, my lost wages and my pain and suffering. So if you prefer straight reparations to affirmative action I guess you’ve made the case.

If your theory of AA is that it is compensatory, this works. Assuming the people actually compensated are disadvantaged, which in practice is dubious. If it's supposed to change things, it seems to be failing.

How is it failing? Because you personally don’t think the recipients are deserving?

DP: it is failing because it isn't working. Heard of massive debts? Of massive drop out rates? Of massive and open racial discrimination against minority groups?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can’t get rid of athletic preferences or they won’t be able to field a team. It makes no sense.

I still don’t see how colleges won’t be able to still keep doing it with.holistic admissions . The whole process is such a random crapshoot anyway,

Maybe sports really shouldn't be that important to colleges. Much better things to spend the money on.

It's customer-driven, and you don't get to decide where I should spend my money.

what customer? if they want to be business, they should pay taxes like businesses and don't get any State/Federal supports

This is a great idea. Make colleges pay taxes on their property and their endowments.

No. They are non profits. Sorry that is the way it works. And you would not pay on an endowment in any event -- just on the taxable gains.

But the bigger picture ---- a college with just the best test takers (and most will go back to requiring tests) is not a place most would wantr to be at. Not enough diveristy of experience and thought.

Is "test-takers" some sort of weird racial euphemism for Asians? Can blacks and Hispanics not be test takers?

You missed part of the sentence. The poster said “diversity of experience and thought.” They were not referring to race, but go ahead with your race baiting.

Can two Asians have diversity of experience and thought?

Can two test-takers have diversity of experience and thought? Why does the act of test-taking remove all the diversity of experience and thought from the test-takers?

Does taking tests turn students into robots? Do test takers spend 24/7 taking tests and never walk outside, don't have hopes and dreams, don't have opinions, don't have culture, family, values?

Still not getting it. The point is that holistic admissions leave room for other accomplishments, geographic diversity, cultural diversity, etc. Test score alone don’t ensure diversity of thought, interests, etc

Why should you be judged based on irrelevant factors that you have no control over, like geographic area, culture and race?

Should colleges take into account physical attractiveness as well?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They can’t get rid of athletic preferences or they won’t be able to field a team. It makes no sense.

I still don’t see how colleges won’t be able to still keep doing it with.holistic admissions . The whole process is such a random crapshoot anyway,

Maybe sports really shouldn't be that important to colleges. Much better things to spend the money on.

It's customer-driven, and you don't get to decide where I should spend my money.

what customer? if they want to be business, they should pay taxes like businesses and don't get any State/Federal supports

This is a great idea. Make colleges pay taxes on their property and their endowments.

No. They are non profits. Sorry that is the way it works. And you would not pay on an endowment in any event -- just on the taxable gains.

But the bigger picture ---- a college with just the best test takers (and most will go back to requiring tests) is not a place most would wantr to be at. Not enough diveristy of experience and thought.

Is "test-takers" some sort of weird racial euphemism for Asians? Can blacks and Hispanics not be test takers?

You missed part of the sentence. The poster said “diversity of experience and thought.” They were not referring to race, but go ahead with your race baiting.

Can two Asians have diversity of experience and thought?

Can two test-takers have diversity of experience and thought? Why does the act of test-taking remove all the diversity of experience and thought from the test-takers?

Does taking tests turn students into robots? Do test takers spend 24/7 taking tests and never walk outside, don't have hopes and dreams, don't have opinions, don't have culture, family, values?

Still not getting it. The point is that holistic admissions leave room for other accomplishments, geographic diversity, cultural diversity, etc. Test score alone don’t ensure diversity of thought, interests, etc

Why should you be judged based on irrelevant factors that you have no control over, like geographic area, culture and race?

Should colleges take into account physical attractiveness as well?

They should.

Time for AA for baldies, shorties and fatties. It's only fair.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really want to hear someone defend athletic recruiting to elite schools, considering how expensive and therefore exclusionary the travel, parental involvement and training required for a child to be recruitable are.

I really want to hear someone defend private secondary schools pipeline to elite schools, considering how expensive and therefore exclusionary....
I really want to hear someone defend standardized testing and paid test prep, considering how expensive and therefore exclusionary....
I really want to hear someone defend the common app essay and the paid prep and adult assistance, considering how expensive and therefore exclusionary....

If only we could all have equal outcomes.