Is the education 'crisis' in the USA overblown?

[Anonymous]

When you have 100+ qualified applicants for job after job on LinkedIn, surely the whole BS about there being an education crisis in this country is overblown. The supply/demand doesn't reflect that.

[Anonymous]

The crisis is in the dramatic disparity of access to opportunity. We do not fund schools equally in this country, and people in underserved school districts are likely to face a plethora of challenges not experienced by those in better served (i.e. rich) districts. While a sliver of the general population is vey well-educated, many in our populace are woefully undereducated. I think this is a travesty - your socioeconomic background shouldn't determine the quality and value of your educational opportunities and experiences. Education is a right.

[Anonymous]

From my (albeit not academic but personal) reading on the topic we have an education crisis primarily at the trades level. Which is insane. I'd much rather my child go to a trade school where he/she can make a good living (my uncles are plumbers, I have multiple degrees and work in nonprofit management- can you guess which has a paid off home and padded retirement accounts?), as opposed to going to a 3rd tier or worse crappy college because you "have to" have a BA/BS as minimum qualifications for success. Some people have strengths that lie outside the traditional schooling path and I think we've swung too far away from that. Do I think that access to college should no longer be limited to the affluent? Of course, but I also think its unrealistic to say everyone should be doing the same thing and expect the same levels of success with different strengths.

[Anonymous]

I sort of agree.

I actually think that there are plenty of educated Americans, but there aren't enough Americans trained in trades (hard skills). And that is where we are going to see a deficit. I also think there aren't enough engineers, but the surprising thing is that engineering jobs don't seem to pay a salary that reflects that.

I think there is a disconnect. The salaries don't match the value of the skill. There are bloated salaries for amorphous, undefined management-esque jobs. But the salaries for actual hard skills are very low.

For example, I know a skilled electrician who works in DC at a place that has some prestige. He makes under 40k. He has to live out in the exurbs. And yet he tells me that they complained the last time they tried to hire a new electrician because they had trouble finding someone who was skilled and experienced and reliable. But they were unwilling to set the salary higher, even though they employ lots of white-collar employees who do a lot of paper pushing for significantly higher salaries. But they are stuck in the mindset that electrician is blue collar/labor.

My view is there is a disconnect. It isn't even just salary, but level of respect. So lots of people flock to certain fields (think law or even policy), and then there are hundreds of applicants for each position.

I actually think that focusing too much on traditional 4-year college education is the wrong approach as a country. We should actually be doing more to bring back apprenticeships and training in trades. And beyond that, we should change how we view those fields so that it isn't seen as "well, Johnny isn't smart enough for college, so he's going to go to trade school." That's the wrong outlook.

[Anonymous]

I agree with both PPs. I am an educator who hope my son learns at least one trade.

[Anonymous]

Teacher here. It's not overblown.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the vast majority of our children lack critical thinking and problem solving skills. This is what happens when principals, teachers, and students are all judged primarily on test scores.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The crisis is in the dramatic disparity of access to opportunity. We do not fund schools equally in this country, and people in underserved school districts are likely to face a plethora of challenges not experienced by those in better served (i.e. rich) districts. While a sliver of the general population is vey well-educated, many in our populace are woefully undereducated. I think this is a travesty - your socioeconomic background shouldn't determine the quality and value of your educational opportunities and experiences. Education is a right.

NP here.

Your response seems to be so all over the place I'm not sure it even addresses the topic. My response will be equally in order to address a few points you made:

1. Education is a right that many don't take advantage of. There's a whole lot of personal responsibility that goes into success. Certain groups can no longer blame Da Man or access. Blame begins with themselves and/or parents.
2. There are more than a sliver of educated people. Who are they? Those who chose to be responsible and pursue it!

OP: depends on what type of crisis you're referring to. Teacher shortage? Depends on the area.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The crisis is in the dramatic disparity of access to opportunity. We do not fund schools equally in this country, and people in underserved school districts are likely to face a plethora of challenges not experienced by those in better served (i.e. rich) districts. While a sliver of the general population is vey well-educated, many in our populace are woefully undereducated. I think this is a travesty - your socioeconomic background shouldn't determine the quality and value of your educational opportunities and experiences. Education is a right.

I take issue with that statement. I live in Maryland, and the school districts that perform the worst actually get the most funding. I don't think the issue is funding. I think it's far more complex than that. The advantage wealthy people have is that they can live around other wealthy people, and that changes the dynamic. It's not that public schools are funded better in those areas. But really, that's a topic for another thread.

As for your last sentence, I think actually in most of human history and in most places around the word, your socioeconomic background does determine your opportunities. It's sad, and it's not how I would make the world, but your entire post comes off as Pollyanna-ish and based on the same tropes constantly repeated, and that's why we never actually drill down into the more subtle issues of primary education disparities in this country.

But beyond that, I don't think OP is talking about the primary education crisis. I think she's talking about the claim that we need to increase H1B-whatever visas because there aren't enough educated Americans to fill those jobs. And I think she's right. But I think employers push for more visas because they can exploit those workers -- pay them less, basically have a captive employee who is hesitant to leave a job b/c of the visa situation.

[Anonymous]

Not at all.
If education was on par with the top developed countries, there would be less job shortage in America.

I'm reading a lot on education quality around the world. Read The Smartest Kids in the World, by Amanda Ripley.
She followed three American high school students who went on exchange to South Korea, Poland and Finland, and lived through those education systems for one school year.

America ranks lower than the average of developed countries in most academic achievement tests, including the very interesting PISA test, which was developed to test, not knowledge, but critical thinking, a good way of measuring future financial success. This despite the fact that the USA spends more per student than most other countries!

Research has found that the usual causes cited for such an astonishing discrepancy are NOT economic inequality and immigration, as many people are fond of saying. If these variables are eliminated from the data, the US still comes up behind most developed countries. The real causes are a lack of rigor and clear standards, a curriculum that's too simplified, conflict between local and national standards (local curriculums and standardized tests don't match up) and an unwillingness to treat students honestly (giving the grades they earned, instead of inflated grades).

In short, Common Core is a first step in the right direction to cut through the tangle, especially for the lower-performing states.

If you are a parent, OP, to further your kids' chances of getting a good job (not talking about college admissions!), you should expect that your kids be at least two years ahead in math. Those are the international standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not at all.
If education was on par with the top developed countries, there would be less job shortage in America.

I'm reading a lot on education quality around the world. Read The Smartest Kids in the World, by Amanda Ripley.
She followed three American high school students who went on exchange to South Korea, Poland and Finland, and lived through those education systems for one school year.

America ranks lower than the average of developed countries in most academic achievement tests, including the very interesting PISA test, which was developed to test, not knowledge, but critical thinking, a good way of measuring future financial success. This despite the fact that the USA spends more per student than most other countries!

Research has found that the usual causes cited for such an astonishing discrepancy are NOT economic inequality and immigration, as many people are fond of saying. If these variables are eliminated from the data, the US still comes up behind most developed countries. The real causes are a lack of rigor and clear standards, a curriculum that's too simplified, conflict between local and national standards (local curriculums and standardized tests don't match up) and an unwillingness to treat students honestly (giving the grades they earned, instead of inflated grades).

In short, Common Core is a first step in the right direction to cut through the tangle, especially for the lower-performing states.

If you are a parent, OP, to further your kids' chances of getting a good job (not talking about college admissions!), you should expect that your kids be at least two years ahead in math. Those are the international standards.

9:52 here. And that's why I don't think the issue is funding. The reason why wealthier districts do better is not because the public schools are funded better but because the parents have the resources to supplement (and, as per your suggestion, make sure their kids are two levels ahead in what is being taught at school). So it ups the ante.

That aside, your examples of Poland, South Korea, and Finland are not comparable to the U.S. All three of those countries have very homogenous populations. They don't have some of the challenges that we have. While I agree that standards, critical thinking, et cetera, are important. I think there are other socioeconomic dynamics we have in this country that the three countries you mention do not have.

[Anonymous]

The whole 100 resumes for positions misses the point that a lot of peal apply were educated in other countries. One in three students in MCPS has a foreign born mother. The education of those being educated in the USA has dropped.

[Anonymous]

School is the place students are there to learn. Students should be taught and educated at school. That is why we have schools - to educated our society. The whole idea of supplementing at home to somehow "game the system" or give your own child an upper hand misses that, why don't these same parents instead work with the school system to improve the schooling for all kids?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The crisis is in the dramatic disparity of access to opportunity. We do not fund schools equally in this country, and people in underserved school districts are likely to face a plethora of challenges not experienced by those in better served (i.e. rich) districts. While a sliver of the general population is vey well-educated, many in our populace are woefully undereducated. I think this is a travesty - your socioeconomic background shouldn't determine the quality and value of your educational opportunities and experiences. Education is a right.

This.

But I would also add that I do think teacher education and training at the college level in this country is poor and doesn't do enough to weed out those who would be ineffective teachers. More focus needs to be on how to manage behavior in the classrooms and child development. The idea of reading specialists likely needs to be eliminated as well at least for early elementary. That should be part of the basic teacher training program and all teachers should be capable of this.

In VA, they eliminated Education as a major in 1990, They should bring it back and have teachers focus 4 years on methods of Education, behavior management and have student teaching all 4 years instead of just 6 months at the end of senior year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not at all.
If education was on par with the top developed countries, there would be less job shortage in America.

I'm reading a lot on education quality around the world. Read The Smartest Kids in the World, by Amanda Ripley.
She followed three American high school students who went on exchange to South Korea, Poland and Finland, and lived through those education systems for one school year.

America ranks lower than the average of developed countries in most academic achievement tests, including the very interesting PISA test, which was developed to test, not knowledge, but critical thinking, a good way of measuring future financial success. This despite the fact that the USA spends more per student than most other countries!

Research has found that the usual causes cited for such an astonishing discrepancy are NOT economic inequality and immigration, as many people are fond of saying. If these variables are eliminated from the data, the US still comes up behind most developed countries. The real causes are a lack of rigor and clear standards, a curriculum that's too simplified, conflict between local and national standards (local curriculums and standardized tests don't match up) and an unwillingness to treat students honestly (giving the grades they earned, instead of inflated grades).

In short, Common Core is a first step in the right direction to cut through the tangle, especially for the lower-performing states.

If you are a parent, OP, to further your kids' chances of getting a good job (not talking about college admissions!), you should expect that your kids be at least two years ahead in math. Those are the international standards.

9:52 here. And that's why I don't think the issue is funding. The reason why wealthier districts do better is not because the public schools are funded better but because the parents have the resources to supplement (and, as per your suggestion, make sure their kids are two levels ahead in what is being taught at school). So it ups the ante.

That aside, your examples of Poland, South Korea, and Finland are not comparable to the U.S. All three of those countries have very homogenous populations. They don't have some of the challenges that we have. While I agree that standards, critical thinking, et cetera, are important. I think there are other socioeconomic dynamics we have in this country that the three countries you mention do not have.

I'm the PP you quoted, and population heterogeneity is not in question according to the data education scientists have amassed and analyzed. Even when they only focus on the wealthy white students in the most affluent school districts, the US STILL lags behind. We're not even talking about Anacostia schools here - because they would be on par with South Sudan, practically.

The biggest hurdle to overcome is surely that the average American doesn't even realize US standards have fallen so far behind, AND doesn't recognize where the problem lies. Please note that Education quality can change very quickly, in a decade, for example. America used to be on top, back in the day when Finland used to be a poor nation of uneducated people, in the 50s. Now Finland is on top of of the world, with any type of test you can throw at its students, AND they don't force their students to study for longer hours than the typical American child is awake for, like in South Korea.

We need to pull our head out of the sand and observe what other nations are doing, and humbly learn from them.

[Anonymous]

I'm the PP you quoted, and population heterogeneity is not in question according to the data education scientists have amassed and analyzed. Even when they only focus on the wealthy white students in the most affluent school districts, the US STILL lags behind. We're not even talking about Anacostia schools here - because they would be on par with South Sudan, practically.

The biggest hurdle to overcome is surely that the average American doesn't even realize US standards have fallen so far behind, AND doesn't recognize where the problem lies. Please note that Education quality can change very quickly, in a decade, for example. America used to be on top, back in the day when Finland used to be a poor nation of uneducated people, in the 50s. Now Finland is on top of of the world, with any type of test you can throw at its students, AND they don't force their students to study for longer hours than the typical American child is awake for, like in South Korea.

We need to pull our head out of the sand and observe what other nations are doing, and humbly learn from them.

I did not realize that Finland, Poland, and South Korea were economic superpowers.
Perhaps you should not be so quick to listen to educational "experts" who compare school systems without factoring in the considerable differences between nations that make them what they are.