Is the education 'crisis' in the USA overblown?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I actually think that focusing too much on traditional 4-year college education is the wrong approach as a country. We should actually be doing more to bring back apprenticeships and training in trades. And beyond that, we should change how we view those fields so that it isn't seen as "well, Johnny isn't smart enough for college, so he's going to go to trade school." That's the wrong outlook.

I talked about this with my mother a while ago, and she mentioned that during her childhood, it was okay for parents to say things like "my Johnny's not the brightest." It sounds terrible now, but back then it was fine, in part because there were enough opportunities for everyone that you didn't HAVE to be the smartest and the best in order to achieve a comfortable life. Now we act like anyone who isn't in the 99th percentile is destined to live in a squalor, and even worse, we act like they deserve it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I sort of agree.

I actually think that there are plenty of educated Americans, but there aren't enough Americans trained in trades (hard skills). And that is where we are going to see a deficit. I also think there aren't enough engineers, but the surprising thing is that engineering jobs don't seem to pay a salary that reflects that.

I think there is a disconnect. The salaries don't match the value of the skill. There are bloated salaries for amorphous, undefined management-esque jobs. But the salaries for actual hard skills are very low.

For example, I know a skilled electrician who works in DC at a place that has some prestige. He makes under 40k. He has to live out in the exurbs. And yet he tells me that they complained the last time they tried to hire a new electrician because they had trouble finding someone who was skilled and experienced and reliable. But they were unwilling to set the salary higher, even though they employ lots of white-collar employees who do a lot of paper pushing for significantly higher salaries. But they are stuck in the mindset that electrician is blue collar/labor.

My view is there is a disconnect. It isn't even just salary, but level of respect. So lots of people flock to certain fields (think law or even policy), and then there are hundreds of applicants for each position.

I actually think that focusing too much on traditional 4-year college education is the wrong approach as a country. We should actually be doing more to bring back apprenticeships and training in trades. And beyond that, we should change how we view those fields so that it isn't seen as "well, Johnny isn't smart enough for college, so he's going to go to trade school." That's the wrong outlook.

Blue collars are replaced by immigrants who actually will work a full 8 hour day.

I don't know one American -- blue collar, white collar, whatever -- who doesn't work *at least* an 8 hour day. So parrot that zinger however much you want, but it isn't true. There are plenty of Americans who are hard workers. The difference is that Americans want to be paid decent salaries and have benefits. Immigrants are usually willing to work for less. But it isn't an issue of willingness to work. It's all about pay. And when you parrot that BS about Americans not being hardworking, you only serve the interests of businesses and the wealthy who benefit from exploiting immigrant labor by paying them low wages.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I actually think that focusing too much on traditional 4-year college education is the wrong approach as a country. We should actually be doing more to bring back apprenticeships and training in trades. And beyond that, we should change how we view those fields so that it isn't seen as "well, Johnny isn't smart enough for college, so he's going to go to trade school." That's the wrong outlook.

I talked about this with my mother a while ago, and she mentioned that during her childhood, it was okay for parents to say things like "my Johnny's not the brightest." It sounds terrible now, but back then it was fine, in part because there were enough opportunities for everyone that you didn't HAVE to be the smartest and the best in order to achieve a comfortable life. Now we act like anyone who isn't in the 99th percentile is destined to live in a squalor, and even worse, we act like they deserve it.

You missed my point. If you think that trades are for dummies, then you don't know much about trades. You actually want the guy who does the wiring in a building or who works on plumbing to be smart because you want that stuff to work right. It's a misconception that a trade is an alternative for a non-smart person. And that misconception is a problem.

In yesteryear, smart people went into trades. It was physical labor or menial jobs that people saw as alternatives for people who were "not the brightest." But even still, those jobs should provide a living wage (and they don't nowadays). But college or university was really something "back then" that people went into for specific things that required a college education (or if they were wealthy). It was never the case that all smart students were expected to go to a 4-year university. There were perfectly respectful pathways to employment aside from university that didn't carry a stigma of "that's for people who can't get into college." That was my point.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When you have 100+ qualified applicants for job after job on LinkedIn, surely the whole BS about there being an education crisis in this country is overblown. The supply/demand doesn't reflect that.

We definitely do not have a STEM shortage.

We get hundreds of resumes for IT jobs. Wages are flat. Salaries are lower than they were 10 years ago.

It is a buyers market for technical talent.

The claims about STEM shortages come from employers, along with their lobbyists and trade associations. Mark and Bill and their merry band of billionaires. The tech industry can benefit if Americans -- and more importantly -- politicians believe that America is falling behind in producing highly skilled workers. While claiming that there is a STEM shortage, industry groups have lobbied Congress to allow more foreign IT workers to work in the U.S.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Teacher here. It's not overblown.

One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that the vast majority of our children lack critical thinking and problem solving skills. This is what happens when principals, teachers, and students are all judged primarily on test scores.

agree

I also agree with the other PP teacher. I'd love for my kids to learn a trade.

I do wonder about education in general. We are ill equipped to prepare students for jobs that haven't even been created yet. So critical thinking is very important, as is expertise in online instruction.

Teachers - Learn all you can about flipped and blended instruction as well as online discussions. It's your future, too.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

You missed my point. If you think that trades are for dummies, then you don't know much about trades. You actually want the guy who does the wiring in a building or who works on plumbing to be smart because you want that stuff to work right. It's a misconception that a trade is an alternative for a non-smart person. And that misconception is a problem.

In yesteryear, smart people went into trades. It was physical labor or menial jobs that people saw as alternatives for people who were "not the brightest." But even still, those jobs should provide a living wage (and they don't nowadays). But college or university was really something "back then" that people went into for specific things that required a college education (or if they were wealthy). It was never the case that all smart students were expected to go to a 4-year university. There were perfectly respectful pathways to employment aside from university that didn't carry a stigma of "that's for people who can't get into college." That was my point.

I think your points aren't as far apart as you seem to think, PP. I grew up in a blue collar family and knew plenty of guys who weren't "book smart" (including my own father, who views reading as a minor form of torture), but they were geniuses with their hands. There are different kinds of smart, and our society suffers when we value one too much over the other.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not at all.
If education was on par with the top developed countries, there would be less job shortage in America.

I'm reading a lot on education quality around the world. Read The Smartest Kids in the World, by Amanda Ripley.
She followed three American high school students who went on exchange to South Korea, Poland and Finland, and lived through those education systems for one school year.

America ranks lower than the average of developed countries in most academic achievement tests, including the very interesting PISA test, which was developed to test, not knowledge, but critical thinking, a good way of measuring future financial success. This despite the fact that the USA spends more per student than most other countries!

Research has found that the usual causes cited for such an astonishing discrepancy are NOT economic inequality and immigration, as many people are fond of saying. If these variables are eliminated from the data, the US still comes up behind most developed countries. The real causes are a lack of rigor and clear standards, a curriculum that's too simplified, conflict between local and national standards (local curriculums and standardized tests don't match up) and an unwillingness to treat students honestly (giving the grades they earned, instead of inflated grades).

Wrong. Poverty is still the problem. http://nasspblogs.org/principaldifference/2014/02/pisa-its-still-poverty-not-stupid/

Poverty Rate PISA Score

Finland 3.4% 536
Poland. 14.5% 500
Norway 3.6%. 503

For American schools:
Poverty Rate PISA score
below 10% 551
between 10 and 25% 527

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How long are you going to be hiding behind that "homogenous population" excuse?
I also truly believe that you can take your advantaged white kids and they will not test as well as their counterparts abroad. I went to high school abroad and college here so I'm speaking from my experience.
Besides all millions national tests, I wish they'd drop the multiple choice for awhile. My kids moves right to left, up and down on the page and still misses to fill in some circles. Doesn't even read all of them, just runs through them. Can't retell a story coherently (2nd grade,WoTP great school), hasn't had to memorize a poem. What do they do in school for 6 hours?! 6 hours is a long time to learn nothing...

Exactly. We had to move our child to private so he could learn to write and show his work, not just fill in circles.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Teaching is no longer a respectable profession - frankly, I think people put it on par with waiting tables, as something to do until you get your "real" job. My grandfather was a teacher and was both very strict and used a lot of creativity in the way he taught (he taught drama and French) - I don't think his style or expectations would be allowable in today's schools. Furthermore, he wouldn't be able to support a family of six children now, as he was able to do then, on a teacher's salary.

When we start valuing teachers, and trusting them, maybe the system will improve.

I wouldn't go so far as to compare it to waiting tables, teachers do have college degrees, but it is not an impressive job. Having volunteered in my child's school, I do wonder what would posses a person to teach, it's such a crappy, demanding job. I think some just really love children and want to make a difference and others chose teaching because they aren't bright enough or motivated enough to complete a more challenging degree.

Until these attitudes go away, how can we expect education to improve?

Until more kids from Whitman and Blair choose to become teachers, how will the very best students end up teaching the next generation?
When will more Harvard grads become teachers instead of finance professionals?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Until more kids from Whitman and Blair choose to become teachers, how will the very best students end up teaching the next generation?
When will more Harvard grads become teachers instead of finance professionals?

This is what Teach for America was supposed to accomplish. Sadly, the result was a bunch of untrained Harvard grads padding their resumes on the backs of poor children before running off to law, finance, and consulting after two years on the job. To get those kids to stick around and actually teach, you need to pay them more. That's all there is to it. They're not going to teach out of the goodness of their hearts.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Wrong. Poverty is still the problem. http://nasspblogs.org/principaldifference/2014/02/pisa-its-still-poverty-not-stupid/

Poverty Rate PISA Score

Finland 3.4% 536
Poland. 14.5% 500
Norway 3.6%. 503

For American schools:
Poverty Rate PISA score
below 10% 551
between 10 and 25% 527

Link doesn't work. Not sure what the percentages are for--seemed clear for the first three but was thrown off by the below 10% and between 10 and 25% for the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not at all.
If education was on par with the top developed countries, there would be less job shortage in America.

I'm reading a lot on education quality around the world. Read The Smartest Kids in the World, by Amanda Ripley.
She followed three American high school students who went on exchange to South Korea, Poland and Finland, and lived through those education systems for one school year.

America ranks lower than the average of developed countries in most academic achievement tests, including the very interesting PISA test, which was developed to test, not knowledge, but critical thinking, a good way of measuring future financial success. This despite the fact that the USA spends more per student than most other countries!

Research has found that the usual causes cited for such an astonishing discrepancy are NOT economic inequality and immigration, as many people are fond of saying. If these variables are eliminated from the data, the US still comes up behind most developed countries. The real causes are a lack of rigor and clear standards, a curriculum that's too simplified, conflict between local and national standards (local curriculums and standardized tests don't match up) and an unwillingness to treat students honestly (giving the grades they earned, instead of inflated grades).

Wrong. Poverty is still the problem. http://nasspblogs.org/principaldifference/2014/02/pisa-its-still-poverty-not-stupid/

Poverty Rate PISA Score

Finland 3.4% 536
Poland. 14.5% 500
Norway 3.6%. 503

For American schools:
Poverty Rate PISA score
below 10% 551
between 10 and 25% 527

You are looking at the numbers the wrong way around. No one has fixed poverty in one decade, whereas many countries have shown us they could do this with education (look up the graphs). Education has to be fixed despite poverty. If you wait to fix poverty, you will never fix education. So what this country needs is to first demand a higher standard from education colleges, those that train teachers. Make it harder to become a teacher, and the job will attract smarter people. Pay them better, and retain them longer. The reason education was not respected in this country is because the USA was so wealthy as a country that most people did not need to be educated to live above the poverty line. Now this isn't true anymore, and the need for a rigorous education is slowly coming to the fore, with one huge obstacle: Americans had it drummed into them that children's psyches are fragile and need to be supported otherwise they develop self-esteem issues. That one can never tell a child their work is god-awful and they better work harder. The truth is that for most of us normal folk, success is a function of WORK, not innate intelligence. Parents, school boards and organizations across the country rebel at the slightest hint of harshness in scoring. Let's worry less about children's confidence and more about their critical thinking skills. It's only when you fail, and fail, and finally succeed that you build resilience and confidence in who you are, and can collectively build a more productive society.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

In VA, they eliminated Education as a major in 1990, They should bring it back and have teachers focus 4 years on methods of Education, behavior management and have student teaching all 4 years instead of just 6 months at the end of senior year.

The Curry School of Education at UVa would likely disagree with you that they no longer teach Education: http://curry.virginia.edu/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

You missed my point. If you think that trades are for dummies, then you don't know much about trades. You actually want the guy who does the wiring in a building or who works on plumbing to be smart because you want that stuff to work right. It's a misconception that a trade is an alternative for a non-smart person. And that misconception is a problem.

In yesteryear, smart people went into trades. It was physical labor or menial jobs that people saw as alternatives for people who were "not the brightest." But even still, those jobs should provide a living wage (and they don't nowadays). But college or university was really something "back then" that people went into for specific things that required a college education (or if they were wealthy). It was never the case that all smart students were expected to go to a 4-year university. There were perfectly respectful pathways to employment aside from university that didn't carry a stigma of "that's for people who can't get into college." That was my point.

I think your points aren't as far apart as you seem to think, PP. I grew up in a blue collar family and knew plenty of guys who weren't "book smart" (including my own father, who views reading as a minor form of torture), but they were geniuses with their hands. There are different kinds of smart, and our society suffers when we value one too much over the other.

Agreed!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Until more kids from Whitman and Blair choose to become teachers, how will the very best students end up teaching the next generation?
When will more Harvard grads become teachers instead of finance professionals?

This is what Teach for America was supposed to accomplish. Sadly, the result was a bunch of untrained Harvard grads padding their resumes on the backs of poor children before running off to law, finance, and consulting after two years on the job. To get those kids to stick around and actually teach, you need to pay them more. That's all there is to it. They're not going to teach out of the goodness of their hearts.

Actually, no, TFA was never meant to place permanent teachers in the classroom. It was always meant to be a two year gig for recent graduates before they moved on to something else. When it began, it addressed a shortage of teachers in certain areas. Now, it's just a short term gig in areas where there is no longer a shortage of trained teachers.