Boys 2028 mess - considerations and solutions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been almost no growth in lacrosse over 20 years. Some states have grown while others have shrunk. The % of players from the NE has essentially gone unchanged. The fall of MLL led to the rise of the PLL. The article tries to spin growth but it's flat.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/the-geography-of-men-s-di-lacrosse-growth-in-georgia-colorado-michigan-and-more/56369

Tell me you don't know how statistics and demographics without telling me you don't know how statistics and demographics work.

As usual on dcum, a refute without backing. How about this one: https://projectplay.org/state-of-play-2023/participation
Lacrosse has the highest churn rate of 54%. That's kids quitting the sport each year.
The participation rate is flat.
Core participation was down 20% over covid to 2022 and has not recovered. To contrast, football was down 13% over the same time and has recovered 7% of that.

One thing that would absolutely help would be for the core principles of the House Settlement to be enacted. More scholarships at more schools would provide for more communities to try the sport in hopes of landing a scholarship.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been almost no growth in lacrosse over 20 years. Some states have grown while others have shrunk. The % of players from the NE has essentially gone unchanged. The fall of MLL led to the rise of the PLL. The article tries to spin growth but it's flat.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/the-geography-of-men-s-di-lacrosse-growth-in-georgia-colorado-michigan-and-more/56369

Tell me you don't know how statistics and demographics without telling me you don't know how statistics and demographics work.

As usual on dcum, a refute without backing. How about this one: https://projectplay.org/state-of-play-2023/participation
Lacrosse has the highest churn rate of 54%. That's kids quitting the sport each year.
The participation rate is flat.
Core participation was down 20% over covid to 2022 and has not recovered. To contrast, football was down 13% over the same time and has recovered 7% of that.

One thing that would absolutely help would be for the core principles of the House Settlement to be enacted. More scholarships at more schools would provide for more communities to try the sport in hopes of landing a scholarship.

And the -20% number includes girls, who've dropped less. FTR, USA Lacrosse doesn't have that much of a dropoff since '19, but boys lacrosse topped off somewhere between '15 and '18. And that's nationwide and doesn't present the micro, like developed hotbeds declining vs newer areas seeing growth.

I wouldn't be counting on the House Settlement. First, the NCAA has no choice but to remove caps on scholarships. Alston told them that and has given them a couple years to get it done. That's in no matter the settlement.
No one knows the future, but expecting some big jump in scholarships from schools for non-revenue sports would be a major reach. IMO. Even IF that happened, most lacrosse participation isn't chasing D1 scholarships. This board notwithstanding.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
One thing that would absolutely help would be for the core principles of the House Settlement to be enacted. More scholarships at more schools would provide for more communities to try the sport in hopes of landing a scholarship.

I respectfully disagree. In my opinion, it would just result in more affluent kids getting scholarships.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been almost no growth in lacrosse over 20 years. Some states have grown while others have shrunk. The % of players from the NE has essentially gone unchanged. The fall of MLL led to the rise of the PLL. The article tries to spin growth but it's flat.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/the-geography-of-men-s-di-lacrosse-growth-in-georgia-colorado-michigan-and-more/56369

Tell me you don't know how statistics and demographics without telling me you don't know how statistics and demographics work.

As usual on dcum, a refute without backing. How about this one: https://projectplay.org/state-of-play-2023/participation
Lacrosse has the highest churn rate of 54%. That's kids quitting the sport each year.
The participation rate is flat.
Core participation was down 20% over covid to 2022 and has not recovered. To contrast, football was down 13% over the same time and has recovered 7% of that.

One thing that would absolutely help would be for the core principles of the House Settlement to be enacted. More scholarships at more schools would provide for more communities to try the sport in hopes of landing a scholarship.

Gotta love a good counterpunch to a d-bag buffoonish comment, especially one about data with data. Well played.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been almost no growth in lacrosse over 20 years. Some states have grown while others have shrunk. The % of players from the NE has essentially gone unchanged. The fall of MLL led to the rise of the PLL. The article tries to spin growth but it's flat.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/the-geography-of-men-s-di-lacrosse-growth-in-georgia-colorado-michigan-and-more/56369

Tell me you don't know how statistics and demographics without telling me you don't know how statistics and demographics work.

As usual on dcum, a refute without backing. How about this one: https://projectplay.org/state-of-play-2023/participation
Lacrosse has the highest churn rate of 54%. That's kids quitting the sport each year.
The participation rate is flat.
Core participation was down 20% over covid to 2022 and has not recovered. To contrast, football was down 13% over the same time and has recovered 7% of that.

One thing that would absolutely help would be for the core principles of the House Settlement to be enacted. More scholarships at more schools would provide for more communities to try the sport in hopes of landing a scholarship.

Gotta love a good counterpunch to a d-bag buffoonish comment, especially one about data with data. Well played.

Agreed

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been almost no growth in lacrosse over 20 years. Some states have grown while others have shrunk. The % of players from the NE has essentially gone unchanged. The fall of MLL led to the rise of the PLL. The article tries to spin growth but it's flat.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/the-geography-of-men-s-di-lacrosse-growth-in-georgia-colorado-michigan-and-more/56369

Tell me you don't know how statistics and demographics without telling me you don't know how statistics and demographics work.

As usual on dcum, a refute without backing. How about this one: https://projectplay.org/state-of-play-2023/participation
Lacrosse has the highest churn rate of 54%. That's kids quitting the sport each year.
The participation rate is flat.
Core participation was down 20% over covid to 2022 and has not recovered. To contrast, football was down 13% over the same time and has recovered 7% of that.

One thing that would absolutely help would be for the core principles of the House Settlement to be enacted. More scholarships at more schools would provide for more communities to try the sport in hopes of landing a scholarship.

Gotta love a good counterpunch to a d-bag buffoonish comment, especially one about data with data. Well played.

Except that isn't the PP's position. So said counter punch is worthless.

The PP stated the DMV area's talent is down because club is destroying rec - more specifically, the PP points to the current 28 class. Well, I think because the PP seems to lump in years and classes to make said position a mishmosh of varying positions that don't really relate to anything.

PP then points to an IL article showing what states, counties and cities DI college lax athletes are coming from. The PP then makes the illogical leap that this shows that DMV clubs are destroying DMV rec. That position misses a couple of points. Lax being played in more locations means better athletes in other areas are taking spots of kids in more traditional hotbeds that aren't good athletes. Wanna go look at what states DI lax athletes came from in 1990. It was Baltimore (not DC - there were no DC rec leagues - the closest was Howard County), Long island and up state NY. There would be the occasional kid from Connecticut or NJ or the like but those 3 areas were it. It was really weird when you saw a kid from like Upper Arlington, OH. So did club ruin the rec teams for those areas back in 90s when lax exploded to other areas.

Second, is there not club teams in other areas of the country? Are those clubs not ruining those rec programs. Maybe. Don't know, but PP has put out no evidence to support said position beyond their view (a position that I'd guess they have spouted through out numerous threads and pages.)

The participation rate post is better. But, again, that is national report and not specific to a region. Remember, PP's position is about DMV lax. It also just lumps everything together - rec, travel, club, etc. What is what...who knows. Only PP, has made the leap from these reports that DMV clubs are ruining DMV rec.

Citing to football is interesting but the study only shows 2019 to 2022. I wonder what football numbers look like if we go to 2010. Wanna bet is even greater number.

Rec also needs to better work with the clubs. NVYLL finally moved 14U A division games to Sundays allowing 7th and 8th grade HOCO club kids to play instead of playing those games on Saturday when they couldn't.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been almost no growth in lacrosse over 20 years. Some states have grown while others have shrunk. The % of players from the NE has essentially gone unchanged. The fall of MLL led to the rise of the PLL. The article tries to spin growth but it's flat.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/the-geography-of-men-s-di-lacrosse-growth-in-georgia-colorado-michigan-and-more/56369

Tell me you don't know how statistics and demographics without telling me you don't know how statistics and demographics work.

As usual on dcum, a refute without backing. How about this one: https://projectplay.org/state-of-play-2023/participation
Lacrosse has the highest churn rate of 54%. That's kids quitting the sport each year.
The participation rate is flat.
Core participation was down 20% over covid to 2022 and has not recovered. To contrast, football was down 13% over the same time and has recovered 7% of that.

One thing that would absolutely help would be for the core principles of the House Settlement to be enacted. More scholarships at more schools would provide for more communities to try the sport in hopes of landing a scholarship.

Gotta love a good counterpunch to a d-bag buffoonish comment, especially one about data with data. Well played.

Agreed

Why should I go search the internet when PP's "date" is relevant to PP's position...remember PP's position is DMV clubs are ruining DMV rec. Maybe the case but what has been presented doesn't support that position.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been almost no growth in lacrosse over 20 years. Some states have grown while others have shrunk. The % of players from the NE has essentially gone unchanged. The fall of MLL led to the rise of the PLL. The article tries to spin growth but it's flat.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/the-geography-of-men-s-di-lacrosse-growth-in-georgia-colorado-michigan-and-more/56369

Tell me you don't know how statistics and demographics without telling me you don't know how statistics and demographics work.

As usual on dcum, a refute without backing. How about this one: https://projectplay.org/state-of-play-2023/participation
Lacrosse has the highest churn rate of 54%. That's kids quitting the sport each year.
The participation rate is flat.
Core participation was down 20% over covid to 2022 and has not recovered. To contrast, football was down 13% over the same time and has recovered 7% of that.

One thing that would absolutely help would be for the core principles of the House Settlement to be enacted. More scholarships at more schools would provide for more communities to try the sport in hopes of landing a scholarship.

Gotta love a good counterpunch to a d-bag buffoonish comment, especially one about data with data. Well played.

Agreed

Why should I go search the internet when PP's "date" is relevant to PP's position...remember PP's position is DMV clubs are ruining DMV rec. Maybe the case but what has been presented doesn't support that position.

Don't have a dog in this fight, but if DMV clubs are instructing their players not to play rec, I think it is safe to assume that is not helping rec with numbers and most likely diminishing the quality of rec play.

When the quality and/or quantity of rec play goes down, there is less opportunity for development for kids of families that can't or don't want to commit to a club team.

It's a viscous cycle, because as the quality of rec play goes down, club coaches are even more adamant about their kids not playing because it can teach them bad habits.

All that said, I'm not convinced that the quality of DMV lacrosse has gone down because rec is being diminished. It could be a small factor, but as others have said, lax is getting stronger in other parts of the country, and sometimes it just comes down to one or two superstars and certain kids being aligned on the same team to reach that high ranking.

[Anonymous]

Having VA kids play in another rec league in MD at the same time is bad for local VA rec leagues

[Anonymous]

At least in the 2nd/3rd grade age group in NOVA, many club coaches also coach rec and the kids almost all play rec as well since the games are on Saturdays.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There has been almost no growth in lacrosse over 20 years. Some states have grown while others have shrunk. The % of players from the NE has essentially gone unchanged. The fall of MLL led to the rise of the PLL. The article tries to spin growth but it's flat.

https://www.insidelacrosse.com/article/the-geography-of-men-s-di-lacrosse-growth-in-georgia-colorado-michigan-and-more/56369

Tell me you don't know how statistics and demographics without telling me you don't know how statistics and demographics work.

As usual on dcum, a refute without backing. How about this one: https://projectplay.org/state-of-play-2023/participation
Lacrosse has the highest churn rate of 54%. That's kids quitting the sport each year.
The participation rate is flat.
Core participation was down 20% over covid to 2022 and has not recovered. To contrast, football was down 13% over the same time and has recovered 7% of that.

One thing that would absolutely help would be for the core principles of the House Settlement to be enacted. More scholarships at more schools would provide for more communities to try the sport in hopes of landing a scholarship.

Gotta love a good counterpunch to a d-bag buffoonish comment, especially one about data with data. Well played.

Agreed

Why should I go search the internet when PP's "date" is relevant to PP's position...remember PP's position is DMV clubs are ruining DMV rec. Maybe the case but what has been presented doesn't support that position.

Don't have a dog in this fight, but if DMV clubs are instructing their players not to play rec, I think it is safe to assume that is not helping rec with numbers and most likely diminishing the quality of rec play.

When the quality and/or quantity of rec play goes down, there is less opportunity for development for kids of families that can't or don't want to commit to a club team.

It's a viscous cycle, because as the quality of rec play goes down, club coaches are even more adamant about their kids not playing because it can teach them bad habits.

All that said, I'm not convinced that the quality of DMV lacrosse has gone down because rec is being diminished. It could be a small factor, but as others have said, lax is getting stronger in other parts of the country, and sometimes it just comes down to one or two superstars and certain kids being aligned on the same team to reach that high ranking.

Having kids that have played ML,NL, and True and no parents with kids on VLC. No program has a don't play rec. I've heard a couple of ML coaches kn one specific team have stated don't play a rec game before a HoCO game is the same day.

[Anonymous]

Kids don't play NVYLL because it is woefully behind the times in terms of developing players. NVYLL is totally dependent on the quality of the coach, if you are lucky enough to get a coach that understands the game, is willing to coach and develop kids then you've won.

More likely, you're getting a dad or mom coach who might've played some HS lacrosse, who really want to see their kid score. Listening to parents yell "your hot". The two pass rule creates more bad habits than it deters. They should align with US Lacrosse for the 1 pass rule.

Bottom line, club fills a void that rec can't/won't fill. NVYLL killed itself with lack of quality coaches, Club directors at ML, NL, VLC just expedited the process.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Kids don't play NVYLL because it is woefully behind the times in terms of developing players. NVYLL is totally dependent on the quality of the coach, if you are lucky enough to get a coach that understands the game, is willing to coach and develop kids then you've won.

More likely, you're getting a dad or mom coach who might've played some HS lacrosse, who really want to see their kid score. Listening to parents yell "your hot". The two pass rule creates more bad habits than it deters. They should align with US Lacrosse for the 1 pass rule.

Bottom line, club fills a void that rec can't/won't fill. NVYLL killed itself with lack of quality coaches, Club directors at ML, NL, VLC just expedited the process.

You have absolutely no idea how lacrosse had been able to grow for decades. Including developing more high end players over time. It hasn't been because of club. Growth has now been halted largely because of club, both lacrosse and other sports. The effects are on their way, if not already arrived.

[Anonymous]

What is lacrosse growth? Which local clubs run a scoopers program? Who runs scoopers programs, BLC, NL, ML. Lacrosse is a niche sport, with limited college programs playing at the d1 level, and even fewer scholarships available.

Lacrosse doesn't grow with rec programs, local lax dads pockets grow with rec lax, almost as quickly as their egos grow when Timmy scores 5 goals.

Please share with us the rec program and the years each of the current D1 all American list played for? More likely to find the club team they played on from 6th grade on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What is lacrosse growth? Which local clubs run a scoopers program? Who runs scoopers programs, BLC, NL, ML. Lacrosse is a niche sport, with limited college programs playing at the d1 level, and even fewer scholarships available.

Lacrosse doesn't grow with rec programs, local lax dads pockets grow with rec lax, almost as quickly as their egos grow when Timmy scores 5 goals.

Please share with us the rec program and the years each of the current D1 all American list played for? More likely to find the club team they played on from 6th grade on.

It seems like you have a lot to learn, though my guess with your views it may take a while to sink in, if ever. Lacrosse grew in NY, MD, DC, PA and many more from rec over the decades. It allowed for the outcropping of club and pushing forward.

I haven't the slightest idea what "local lax dads pockets growing" means. Are you okay?

In NoVa, participation is down over 40%. That's thousands of kids plural, before high school. So thousands fewer kids to choose from for the clubs, much smaller pool. That'll have it's effects on privates just like it has the publics. And club just like it has rec.