Race in college admissions is back in front of the Supreme Court Oral Argument on Oct. 31 (Monday)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:To the short-sighted Asian parents, enjoy your short-lived victory. The only real repercussion for the dismantling of AA is that mediocre white men will get an extra leg up on everyone else. This is just cementing white supremacy. Why would conservative white men advocate on behalf of Asian students unless they think they have something to gain from doing away from the current system?

not seeing this. Explain.

Not pp but currently male applicants at many competitive colleges get an admissions boost for being male (not at stem schools) as female applicants way outnumber them. As discussed in the Court arguments, that affirmative action is subject to only intermediate scrutiny (for sex/gender) instead of strict scrutiny (for race). So a likely outcome from this case is that white males will continue to enjoy affirmative action while people of color cannot. And legacy preference will also survive.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians were deemed subhuman and unassimilable in the nineteenth century, but have become America’s exceptionally competent minority in the 21st century. This does not fit neatly within the progressive narrative. It is much easier to lower the bar for certain groups than to do the heavy lifting of improving the educational system for all.

You have foolishly bought into the conservative narrative that progressives are the problem. URMs are not the problem.

Can you explain why it is that Asian applicants need higher scores in order to get into top colleges? The right has a plausible explanation that was born out by the Harvard case, what is your alternative explanation?

Where is the evidence that they need higher test scores in order to get into top colleges?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/

I see your stats but you still did not answer my question. You assume they need higher test scores because they have higher test scores.

Don't be stupid. No college is going to come right out and say that Asians NEED a higher score to get in.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/15/admissions-internal-report/

So you are just guessing at racism? OK

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians were deemed subhuman and unassimilable in the nineteenth century, but have become America’s exceptionally competent minority in the 21st century. This does not fit neatly within the progressive narrative. It is much easier to lower the bar for certain groups than to do the heavy lifting of improving the educational system for all.

You have foolishly bought into the conservative narrative that progressives are the problem. URMs are not the problem.

Can you explain why it is that Asian applicants need higher scores in order to get into top colleges? The right has a plausible explanation that was born out by the Harvard case, what is your alternative explanation?

Where is the evidence that they need higher test scores in order to get into top colleges?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/

I see your stats but you still did not answer my question. You assume they need higher test scores because they have higher test scores.

Don't be stupid. No college is going to come right out and say that Asians NEED a higher score to get in.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/15/admissions-internal-report/

This poster is not going to get it no matter what you show them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Prediction: Black SAT scores rise discontinuously in 2023.

Prediction: test optional becomes the norm in 2023 and SAT scores become even LESS relevant.

A lot of students won't take the SAT/ ACT.

Totally wrong.
Most students will take the test multiple times, and if scores are low, then hide it.

The SAT will become less relevant. Already headed in that direction ( posters citing MIT won't change that).

The UMC whites and Asians will spend on test prep and take the test multiple times. Most URMs and/or first gens will not. And they'll still get accepted because of their academic profile , ECs and essays AND for diversity.

Not much will change. The elite colleges will still fill their classes the way they want.

Why would most URMs pass the good chance to see if they also get high score and use it??????????????

Some will. Most won't. It's already borne out in the Common App stats.

The more important point is that the SAT/ ACT isn't being treated as high stakes anymore and is becoming less relevant each admissions cycle. This dynamic will be accelerated after June / July 2023.

You are confused with not taking from not submitting.
High scores will be more valuable

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians were deemed subhuman and unassimilable in the nineteenth century, but have become America’s exceptionally competent minority in the 21st century. This does not fit neatly within the progressive narrative. It is much easier to lower the bar for certain groups than to do the heavy lifting of improving the educational system for all.

You have foolishly bought into the conservative narrative that progressives are the problem. URMs are not the problem.

Can you explain why it is that Asian applicants need higher scores in order to get into top colleges? The right has a plausible explanation that was born out by the Harvard case, what is your alternative explanation?

Where is the evidence that they need higher test scores in order to get into top colleges?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/

I see your stats but you still did not answer my question. You assume they need higher test scores because they have higher test scores.

Don't be stupid. No college is going to come right out and say that Asians NEED a higher score to get in.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/15/admissions-internal-report/

So you are just guessing at racism? OK

Did you really say that I'm guessing at racism?? That it doesn't exist? I guess you really are stupid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians were deemed subhuman and unassimilable in the nineteenth century, but have become America’s exceptionally competent minority in the 21st century. This does not fit neatly within the progressive narrative. It is much easier to lower the bar for certain groups than to do the heavy lifting of improving the educational system for all.

You have foolishly bought into the conservative narrative that progressives are the problem. URMs are not the problem.

Can you explain why it is that Asian applicants need higher scores in order to get into top colleges? The right has a plausible explanation that was born out by the Harvard case, what is your alternative explanation?

Holistic admissions. Test scores are not the be all/end all that folks think they are.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians were deemed subhuman and unassimilable in the nineteenth century, but have become America’s exceptionally competent minority in the 21st century. This does not fit neatly within the progressive narrative. It is much easier to lower the bar for certain groups than to do the heavy lifting of improving the educational system for all.

You have foolishly bought into the conservative narrative that progressives are the problem. URMs are not the problem.

Can you explain why it is that Asian applicants need higher scores in order to get into top colleges? The right has a plausible explanation that was born out by the Harvard case, what is your alternative explanation?

Holistic admissions. Test scores are not the be all/end all that folks think they are.

So we're pretending that the Harvard personality scores that were shown to be lower across the board for asians are just causal racism and not a way to dock asian applicants in order to boost diversity? Or do you believe that Asian kids really do have inferior personalities?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians were deemed subhuman and unassimilable in the nineteenth century, but have become America’s exceptionally competent minority in the 21st century. This does not fit neatly within the progressive narrative. It is much easier to lower the bar for certain groups than to do the heavy lifting of improving the educational system for all.

You have foolishly bought into the conservative narrative that progressives are the problem. URMs are not the problem.

Can you explain why it is that Asian applicants need higher scores in order to get into top colleges? The right has a plausible explanation that was born out by the Harvard case, what is your alternative explanation?

Holistic admissions. Test scores are not the be all/end all that folks think they are.

Probably somewhat cynical, but so-called holistic admissions can be used as a reason for denying certain applicants

[Anonymous]

There does appear to be advantages and disadvantages by race on SAT and ACT scores at selective colleges

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2017/08/07/look-data-and-arguments-about-asian-americans-and-admissions-elite

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians were deemed subhuman and unassimilable in the nineteenth century, but have become America’s exceptionally competent minority in the 21st century. This does not fit neatly within the progressive narrative. It is much easier to lower the bar for certain groups than to do the heavy lifting of improving the educational system for all.

You have foolishly bought into the conservative narrative that progressives are the problem. URMs are not the problem.

Can you explain why it is that Asian applicants need higher scores in order to get into top colleges? The right has a plausible explanation that was born out by the Harvard case, what is your alternative explanation?

Where is the evidence that they need higher test scores in order to get into top colleges?

https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/10/22/asian-american-admit-sat-scores/

I see your stats but you still did not answer my question. You assume they need higher test scores because they have higher test scores.

Don't be stupid. No college is going to come right out and say that Asians NEED a higher score to get in.
https://www.thecrimson.com/article/2018/6/15/admissions-internal-report/

This poster is not going to get it no matter what you show them.

You reverse engineered racism by looking at the stats and guessing that the results prove what you claim. If a black person made the same claim, you'd accuse them of playing the race card. You would still need to prove racism, and your stats do not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians were deemed subhuman and unassimilable in the nineteenth century, but have become America’s exceptionally competent minority in the 21st century. This does not fit neatly within the progressive narrative. It is much easier to lower the bar for certain groups than to do the heavy lifting of improving the educational system for all.

You have foolishly bought into the conservative narrative that progressives are the problem. URMs are not the problem.

Can you explain why it is that Asian applicants need higher scores in order to get into top colleges? The right has a plausible explanation that was born out by the Harvard case, what is your alternative explanation?

Holistic admissions. Test scores are not the be all/end all that folks think they are.

Probably somewhat cynical, but so-called holistic admissions can be used as a reason for denying certain applicants

Not cynical. That is what is happening. Read the Mother Jones article someone posted above re Harvard admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians were deemed subhuman and unassimilable in the nineteenth century, but have become America’s exceptionally competent minority in the 21st century. This does not fit neatly within the progressive narrative. It is much easier to lower the bar for certain groups than to do the heavy lifting of improving the educational system for all.

You have foolishly bought into the conservative narrative that progressives are the problem. URMs are not the problem.

Can you explain why it is that Asian applicants need higher scores in order to get into top colleges? The right has a plausible explanation that was born out by the Harvard case, what is your alternative explanation?

Holistic admissions. Test scores are not the be all/end all that folks think they are.

So we're pretending that the Harvard personality scores that were shown to be lower across the board for asians are just causal racism and not a way to dock asian applicants in order to boost diversity? Or do you believe that Asian kids really do have inferior personalities?

This is a false premise. There is no diversity gain from decreasing the number of Asians students when it is primarily white students who are losing ground in admissions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Liberal/Leftist

Disparity equals discrimination. To prove discrimination you just have to show disparity between POC outcomes and white outcomes. That provides prima facie evidence of discrimination (Voting rights, criminal justice and many other categories)

Me:

Hmm, so what about the consistent disparity in personality scores given by Harvard to Asians compared to other races? (The district court found quote, ‘a statistically significant and negative relationship between Asian American identity and the personal rating assigned by Harvard admissions officers.’)

Liberal: (Read Waxman, Harvard lawyer) "the record will not allow a full explanation for that." .... "But we don't discriminate"

Such duplicity. Such Hypocrisy.

This one is hard because it's an opinion. They may have truly thought the applicant wasn't a good fit or they may have used it to reduce the numbers. Hard to say with the data presented. If there was a more concrete measure it would be easier to link to discrimination.

Honestly, this is not a popular opinion but for some applicants it may be cultural presentation (not saying that is right or fair). I was recently interviewing and hiring for a role in Hong Kong. It was a struggle to get colleagues to fairly consider people of a Chinese or HK ethnicity. They gravitated toward the expat candidates. The constant feedback about the HK or Chinese candidates was that they were not “dynamic.” I think it was cultural bias and I had to call it out.

I get it that many of the applicants to college would not fall in this category because they are culturally American but I wonder if there are some that present culturally as the job applicants I interviewed. The bias was so clear in our interview feedback, although folks were not understanding why they did not find the candidates dynamic and relatable.

If the problem was "cultural presentation" in terms of how the applicants conducted themselves, how come the interviews who **actually met them** gave them scores on par with applicants of other races, but the admissions people in the office docked then for personality?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asians were deemed subhuman and unassimilable in the nineteenth century, but have become America’s exceptionally competent minority in the 21st century. This does not fit neatly within the progressive narrative. It is much easier to lower the bar for certain groups than to do the heavy lifting of improving the educational system for all.

You have foolishly bought into the conservative narrative that progressives are the problem. URMs are not the problem.

Can you explain why it is that Asian applicants need higher scores in order to get into top colleges? The right has a plausible explanation that was born out by the Harvard case, what is your alternative explanation?

Holistic admissions. Test scores are not the be all/end all that folks think they are.

So we're pretending that the Harvard personality scores that were shown to be lower across the board for asians are just causal racism and not a way to dock asian applicants in order to boost diversity? Or do you believe that Asian kids really do have inferior personalities?

This is a false premise. There is no diversity gain from decreasing the number of Asians students when it is primarily white students who are losing ground in admissions.

Admissions is zero sum. If it weren't for the personality scores, the Harvard student body would be far more Asian American

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Prediction: Black SAT scores rise discontinuously in 2023.

Prediction: test optional becomes the norm in 2023 and SAT scores become even LESS relevant.

A lot of students won't take the SAT/ ACT.

Totally wrong.
Most students will take the test multiple times, and if scores are low, then hide it.

The SAT will become less relevant. Already headed in that direction ( posters citing MIT won't change that).

The UMC whites and Asians will spend on test prep and take the test multiple times. Most URMs and/or first gens will not. And they'll still get accepted because of their academic profile , ECs and essays AND for diversity.

Not much will change. The elite colleges will still fill their classes the way they want.

Why would most URMs pass the good chance to see if they also get high score and use it??????????????

Some will. Most won't. It's already borne out in the Common App stats.

The more important point is that the SAT/ ACT isn't being treated as high stakes anymore and is becoming less relevant each admissions cycle. This dynamic will be accelerated after June / July 2023.

You are confused with not taking from not submitting.
High scores will be more valuable

Semantics aside, you're assuming a standardized test score will be a determine factor as in its high stakes past.

It won't.

And for a URM / first gen, especially so after AA is banned.

Higher percentages of this group are getting admitted - without needing to SUBMIT a SAT/ ACT score.