Tell me about St Andrews in Scotland

[Anonymous]

My son loves it too, but the “no handholding” mantra really, truly an excuse for dismissiveness and shaky leadership- remember- the university is underfunded, that’s why they are recruiting Americans so heavily to begin with. Seriously, other parents are trying to be helpful here, not bash the school for no reason. It’s a small community and stories bubble up. None of the kids who go there need “handholding” to begin with - these are adventurous, independent kids who choose to study abroad for four years, the kids are great! The best thing about this school is the pretty town, the societies and the international student body. The reality of the educational approach really is like zoom classes but in person. Unapproachable professors, graduate students of varying quality teaching entry level classes, silent classrooms that don’t encourage class participation, quality we are used to as Americans doesn’t exist there. It is a different mentality, just buyer beware.

[Anonymous]

It’s true- my friend’s daughter fell behind with her credits during covid and appealed for an extra semester to retake two classes, and they said no. And then expelled her. Nobody would meet with her in person to discuss her situation, she got a form letter in her email telling her that immigration was contacted, her visa was terminated and she needed to leave the country. It’s worse than “no hand holding”, they really don’t care about students in a bind. And she was a great student, outgoing girl, just didn’t follow their academic protocol directly during covid and there is no forgiveness. Also there aren’t really advisors to keep things like this from happening- you’re on your own. Such a waste of talent and time and money- they treated her terribly.

[Anonymous]

Should add they expelled her because they said she needed a certain number of credits completed within six semesters. And because she didn’t have enough, she was terminated. All she needed was an extra semester. Especially after the weirdness of covid- kids are all over the place. Once that ruling came down, no other Deans or administrators would meet with her. “There’s nothing we can do, it’s policy”. It was so wrong. They’re all
Unionized so maybe that explains their rigidity

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DC us in her third year there, loves it, has lots of friends and has been treated well by Admin, teachers, other students. We are not rich.

How do you manage to afford it then? It's a lot pricier than in-state US publics and privates with merit aid.

[Anonymous]

“Not Rich” is relative at that school- we are not rich compared to the Greek shipping magnates who are there lol

[Anonymous]

If one does matriculate at St Andrews, remember to pack and dress with layers for cold, windy, and wet. The town is directly on the North Sea and it is fairly far north in latitude. Scots say there is no bad weather, only inappropriate clothing. As it is on the east coast, the Gulf Stream is not much of a help in moderating the climate.

Bean boots or Bean gumshoes (unlined, but with room for warm socks) and wool socks (I like REI brand over other options) are helpful. Unlined means they can be used with either wool or cotton socks as appropriate, and one can change socks as needed.

Gore-tex jacket (shell) is good, ideally a bit reflective in back as days are short during winter due to latitude, and preferably sized so one can layer a fleece or jumper under the shell if/as appropriate. Dressing in layers allows one to be comfortable indoors at varying temperatures or outdoors in every season.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My DC us in her third year there, loves it, has lots of friends and has been treated well by Admin, teachers, other students. We are not rich.

How do you manage to afford it then? It's a lot pricier than in-state US publics and privates with merit aid.

It's considerably less than many US privates now at $90K or more. Most of us don't get merit aid. Merit aid comers only when you drop down to second or third tier schools. They are exchanging money for high stats or GPA.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Should add they expelled her because they said she needed a certain number of credits completed within six semesters. And because she didn’t have enough, she was terminated. All she needed was an extra semester. Especially after the weirdness of covid- kids are all over the place. Once that ruling came down, no other Deans or administrators would meet with her. “There’s nothing we can do, it’s policy”. It was so wrong. They’re all
Unionized so maybe that explains their rigidity

I know of Oxford MPhil students who spent two years in the program only to receive a very low number on their theses and not graduate. No appeal. Visa was terminated. Two years shot with nothing to show for it. No warning from any tutor that they were doing sublevel work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know an American student who was advocating for herself like a pro to appeal an unfair situation with the administration. First of all, it was almost impossible for her to talk to anyone who could support her appeal, because if you’re in the midst of an appeal, nobody in the administration will meet or speak with you. They completely freeze you out- even Deans of Learning, Wellness, etc etc. No contact. Undeterred, she rounded up letters of support from professors in the department of her major, they reassured her that it would be resolved with their support, as well as with the letters of support from the student services center. The anonymous Academic Senate went on to deny her appeal, saying “whilst” they were sympathetic, her evidence wasn’t “compelling”. No explanation for what they were looking for. Next. Done. Get a lawyer, kid, if you don’t like it. She had to leave school for poor grades resulting from a documented medical condition that she didn’t report properly. Since she didn’t report it at the proper time, they wouldn’t excuse some failing final exam grades. The Senate disregarded multiple Doctor letters in addition to her faculty support. It’s a trope that American kids at St Andrews go running to their parents for help. And why should educators scoff at concerned parents, anyway, when the fate of their students education is on the line? They certainly recruit the parents as well as the students, Sally Mapstone is literally selling tickets to an event at a private club in Manhattan to give parents access next week. These kids are more independent than the average 18 year olds, fending for themselves in a different country. This may be a bigger problem across the UK, but St Andrews is supposed to be “the best” now. They cling to this rigid “no handholding” mentality like it’s impressive. The University should feel queasy about the ethics of situations where one young adult’s fate is being decided by an anonymous group of apparently anti-American administrators. Many, many students need a ton of support right now post covid. “You didn’t reach out at the right time, so too bad” is an embarrassing policy for a University of this supposed stature . Their anonymous Senate sending decisions out via email is embarrassing for a university of this supposed stature. Parents should be aware that “no handholding” is t really character building- it’s a way for the University to hide behind an outdated mindset. Even if this is typical of the UK, they have a gaggle of Americans on their hands that they recruited. Maybe it’s time to do things differently for more successful student outcomes.

You are right. But to remind - British schools don't believe in ADHD and all of our other diagnoses that provide additional time or other compensations like here in the states. YOu can't expect "wellness services" at a british school to coddle like we do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The large percentage of American students brings a friendly energy to the class-conscious British student body. The moody atmosphere of the ancient town complements majors like History and Literature, it’s a cinematic backdrop of a college town. Beware, though, the Stockholm syndrome the Americans have. The University takes dubious pride in tossing out the phrase “no handholding” at info sessions and orientations. “You are an adult. No handholding” is really a convenient way to dismiss students who are barely adults from expecting better service from the University. The collective eye rolling and disdain the administration has for the “silly” American undergrads who are “only there to meet royals” needs to be re examined. Don’t second guess yourself, Americans, this University falls seriously, significantly short in many ways but tries to make you feel needy and immature for expecting better service. Americans are subsidizing a giant chunk of the University by paying full tuition in comparison to the UK kids paying almost nothing, fine, but the University also unjustly paints these American kids as high maintenance, less impressive seat fillers with deep pockets who are taking spots away from deserving UK kids because the government can’t subsidize all of them. The Americans who choose St Andrews are solid, adventurous students who opt to study overseas at age 18 for four years. They contribute greatly to University life. “No hand holding” is really the catchall phrase the University fires back when American students want to hold it accountable for its many sub par services. For example- the University’s inability to house its students within walking distance- kids are housed in Dundee an hour bus ride away because the University over accepted and ran out of housing. We aren’t talking a ten minute shuttle bus, this is an hour+ long bus ride to another city to stay in the empty dorms belonging to another University in Dundee. The professors are unionized and quite often on strike, they cancel classes and stand outside on the shopping streets banging pots with spoons, leaving grad students to teach some, and recycling old zoom material from covid. There are no summer sessions, the University rents their dorms to golf tourists in the summers, so if you fall behind with credits, look forward to adding an extra year on to your studies, if they let you. They may expel you, saying you have run over the semesters allowed to complete your major in time, good luck somewhere else. There are two chances for academic assessment during the term- a midterm grade and a paper. They send the exams to students online, and if you have a problem with your internet that day, too bad. There is no academic advising system like there is in the States. You only use an advisor as a conduit for enrolling in your classes each year. They aren’t assigned to students for the duration of their studies. There is no academic mentor to advise or guide once classes are underway. Is this really “no handholding”? Or is this a gaslight-y way to make students feel like failures for questioning the sub par services available in comparison to similar Universities in the States? Student health services are also quite shaky in comparison to the support and privacy you can get in the states. It’s hard to get appointments, and if you have a health condition that interferes with your studies, it’s very very difficult to be excused from work you may have missed or need to redo. Don’t buy in to the “no handholding” stiff upper lip British thing. Americans have greatly bolstered St Andrews in every way; making do with less -than shouldn’t be a point of pride. In many ways, dealing with the admin at this University can be a lot like dealing with the DMV, don’t let them make you feel like you’re the problem.

+1. All true. Also the student reads usually only in their area of study. There is no "liberal arts" education concept. It's assumed that you have already achieved that at a British University (a year longer than ours and better) so you immediately specialize. That is jarring for many U.S. students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should add they expelled her because they said she needed a certain number of credits completed within six semesters. And because she didn’t have enough, she was terminated. All she needed was an extra semester. Especially after the weirdness of covid- kids are all over the place. Once that ruling came down, no other Deans or administrators would meet with her. “There’s nothing we can do, it’s policy”. It was so wrong. They’re all
Unionized so maybe that explains their rigidity

I know of Oxford MPhil students who spent two years in the program only to receive a very low number on their theses and not graduate. No appeal. Visa was terminated. Two years shot with nothing to show for it. No warning from any tutor that they were doing sublevel work.

I can believe it. I’m British and I think many Americans just don’t understand the system in the UK (which is totally fair!) To a certain extent it is simply that you get what you pay for, but it doesn’t really work when you’re an international student who has still paid a lot of money to be there. For British students, it isn’t very expensive (relative to international students - though when I went it was almost free) and you don’t get much in the way of services, or individual attention. You go to lectures and tutorials - or not, and no one will check in with you if not - and you may only have a couple of hours a week of class time. And then you hand in your work (or not), you sit exams (or not) and you pass or fail. You are expected to be very independent, in a way that i don’t think most American students are prepared for at all. If British universities only had a handful of American students, I could understand it. The shocking part, for me, is that universities like St Andrews so aggressively recruit American students, who pay much more than any local student, in amounts comparable to US universities; and then don’t have any of the services that American students would expect and just dismiss it as “no handholding”. Caveat emptor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Should add they expelled her because they said she needed a certain number of credits completed within six semesters. And because she didn’t have enough, she was terminated. All she needed was an extra semester. Especially after the weirdness of covid- kids are all over the place. Once that ruling came down, no other Deans or administrators would meet with her. “There’s nothing we can do, it’s policy”. It was so wrong. They’re all
Unionized so maybe that explains their rigidity

I know of Oxford MPhil students who spent two years in the program only to receive a very low number on their theses and not graduate. No appeal. Visa was terminated. Two years shot with nothing to show for it. No warning from any tutor that they were doing sublevel work.

I can believe it. I’m British and I think many Americans just don’t understand the system in the UK (which is totally fair!) To a certain extent it is simply that you get what you pay for, but it doesn’t really work when you’re an international student who has still paid a lot of money to be there. For British students, it isn’t very expensive (relative to international students - though when I went it was almost free) and you don’t get much in the way of services, or individual attention. You go to lectures and tutorials - or not, and no one will check in with you if not - and you may only have a couple of hours a week of class time. And then you hand in your work (or not), you sit exams (or not) and you pass or fail. You are expected to be very independent, in a way that i don’t think most American students are prepared for at all. If British universities only had a handful of American students, I could understand it. The shocking part, for me, is that universities like St Andrews so aggressively recruit American students, who pay much more than any local student, in amounts comparable to US universities; and then don’t have any of the services that American students would expect and just dismiss it as “no handholding”. Caveat emptor.

well put

[Anonymous]

“You are right. But to remind - British schools don't believe in ADHD and all of our other diagnoses that provide additional time or other compensations like here in the states. YOu can't expect "wellness services" at a british school to coddle like we do.“

Given what we know about covid fallout among college students- and mental health in general among college students worldwide- Wellness Services should no longer be used in quotation marks. There is a legitimate need, it’s science based, and it should be standard and prioritized on college campuses. Even if it’s not perfectly delivered- they should at least TRY to be up on the fact that college students around the world are still feeling covid aftershocks. Not everyone is having a nervous breakdown- but a LOT of students are off track, and a lot are taking a non linear route through college. It’s been a very challenging last few years. Mountains of science and research back this up. Wellness is not coddling. To say “well it’s just the UK, what are you gonna do” is to permit a VERY low bar for professional educators, at the #1 school (?) , who should be up to speed on research and world events that especially affect their own students for crying out loud.. The irony of St Andrews locking undergrads into solitary confinement in their dorm rooms in 2020, isolating the students at home with zoom classes, etc …this was serious stuff to do to a young person. And then acting like they don’t understand WHY anyone could possibly still have lingering problems after the fact? And excuse it with “oh wel, no hand holding… you’re an adult” ??? Students have been SO FLEXIBLE over the last few years to accommodate the changing needs and rules of Universities. And in return- St Andrews was FOR SURE caught flat footed in dealing with the aftermath. For example- A student fails a class in fall of 2020, then drops a class past the drop date in the spring of 2021, because it just doesn’t seem relevant when still locked down in a single dorm room, hasn’t met anyone yet, can’t concentrate…fails that… and then regrets that choice two years later… but can’t make up the credits even though extenuating circumstances were the fact that the world was completely insane? Nobody in the University remembers what covid was like? Nobody can put themselves in the shoes of a lonely first year student? Their policy is to pretend covid didn’t happen? The university absolutely had no meaningful plan in place to accommodate students who struggled, they could have created some sort committee to advise/guide/excuse/grant redos for students who got behind during covid for whatever reason. Work with them to get them back on track due to the fact that a global pandemic seemed to mess the kids up. For a prominent University to not be proactive. To ignore the realities, the science, the covid era had - on this exact age group of students!! And when faced with it, to dig in instead of leading with science? It’s embarrassing if you think about it- no plan in place to support or guide their own, from an institution that’s comprised of thinkers and intellectuals and scientists. Think of the hoops the kids jumped through during that terrible time.

[Anonymous]

We should take to their cobblestone streets with torches!

[Anonymous]

Quick reality check: Virtually all UK (and most US) universities responded to Covid in the same way in 2020. Those issues are far from unique to StA.