Tell me about St Andrews in Scotland

[Anonymous]

It's been discovered as a good backup because US schools are so hard to get into. We were told by our counselor to apply as a safety only because of DD's scores. 1580 and 36. Good ECs but I don't think that matters to the UK schools.

[Anonymous]

My daughter is a current student. ECs don't matter, unless they are directly related to the intended course of study. Grades and test scores directly related to the intended course of study matter very much. There are minimum entry standards for the school, and then different minimum entry standards for the course. My daughter had a 34 ACT and demonstrated interest in the subject matter. She says that some of the UK students believe that US students are not as bright/qualified, and that most kids (even foreign, full pay students) are being rejected. I would imagine that with the rankings upset in the UK over the past three years St Andrews has their pick of students AND wants to continue to attract and retain a very highly qualified student body.

[Anonymous]

The large percentage of American students brings a friendly energy to the class-conscious British student body. The moody atmosphere of the ancient town complements majors like History and Literature, it’s a cinematic backdrop of a college town. Beware, though, the Stockholm syndrome the Americans have. The University takes dubious pride in tossing out the phrase “no handholding” at info sessions and orientations. “You are an adult. No handholding” is really a convenient way to dismiss students who are barely adults from expecting better service from the University. The collective eye rolling and disdain the administration has for the “silly” American undergrads who are “only there to meet royals” needs to be re examined. Don’t second guess yourself, Americans, this University falls seriously, significantly short in many ways but tries to make you feel needy and immature for expecting better service. Americans are subsidizing a giant chunk of the University by paying full tuition in comparison to the UK kids paying almost nothing, fine, but the University also unjustly paints these American kids as high maintenance, less impressive seat fillers with deep pockets who are taking spots away from deserving UK kids because the government can’t subsidize all of them. The Americans who choose St Andrews are solid, adventurous students who opt to study overseas at age 18 for four years. They contribute greatly to University life. “No hand holding” is really the catchall phrase the University fires back when American students want to hold it accountable for its many sub par services. For example- the University’s inability to house its students within walking distance- kids are housed in Dundee an hour bus ride away because the University over accepted and ran out of housing. We aren’t talking a ten minute shuttle bus, this is an hour+ long bus ride to another city to stay in the empty dorms belonging to another University in Dundee. The professors are unionized and quite often on strike, they cancel classes and stand outside on the shopping streets banging pots with spoons, leaving grad students to teach some, and recycling old zoom material from covid. There are no summer sessions, the University rents their dorms to golf tourists in the summers, so if you fall behind with credits, look forward to adding an extra year on to your studies, if they let you. They may expel you, saying you have run over the semesters allowed to complete your major in time, good luck somewhere else. There are two chances for academic assessment during the term- a midterm grade and a paper. They send the exams to students online, and if you have a problem with your internet that day, too bad. There is no academic advising system like there is in the States. You only use an advisor as a conduit for enrolling in your classes each year. They aren’t assigned to students for the duration of their studies. There is no academic mentor to advise or guide once classes are underway. Is this really “no handholding”? Or is this a gaslight-y way to make students feel like failures for questioning the sub par services available in comparison to similar Universities in the States? Student health services are also quite shaky in comparison to the support and privacy you can get in the states. It’s hard to get appointments, and if you have a health condition that interferes with your studies, it’s very very difficult to be excused from work you may have missed or need to redo. Don’t buy in to the “no handholding” stiff upper lip British thing. Americans have greatly bolstered St Andrews in every way; making do with less -than shouldn’t be a point of pride. In many ways, dealing with the admin at this University can be a lot like dealing with the DMV, don’t let them make you feel like you’re the problem.

[Anonymous]

My understanding is that pretty much every UK university ascribes to the "no handholding" approach, as compared to many US colleges. Also, I don't get the sense that "no handholding" is applied any differently to students from the US versus students from Scotland, England, or elsewhere. I think the university expects to students to advocate for themselves--albeit to less-than-satisfying results in many cases--rather than hearing from a parent. I think this approach just feels more foreign for many US families who are accustomed to advocating for their child.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My understanding is that pretty much every UK university ascribes to the "no handholding" approach, as compared to many US colleges. Also, I don't get the sense that "no handholding" is applied any differently to students from the US versus students from Scotland, England, or elsewhere.

This seems likely. Every UK university I am familiar with has the same “no handholding” mantra. That said, a student who reaches out to a prof for help or to ask questions generally will not be turned away. But it is on the student to reach out…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The large percentage of American students brings a friendly energy to the class-conscious British student body. The moody atmosphere of the ancient town complements majors like History and Literature, it’s a cinematic backdrop of a college town. Beware, though, the Stockholm syndrome the Americans have. The University takes dubious pride in tossing out the phrase “no handholding” at info sessions and orientations. “You are an adult. No handholding” is really a convenient way to dismiss students who are barely adults from expecting better service from the University. The collective eye rolling and disdain the administration has for the “silly” American undergrads who are “only there to meet royals” needs to be re examined. Don’t second guess yourself, Americans, this University falls seriously, significantly short in many ways but tries to make you feel needy and immature for expecting better service. Americans are subsidizing a giant chunk of the University by paying full tuition in comparison to the UK kids paying almost nothing, fine, but the University also unjustly paints these American kids as high maintenance, less impressive seat fillers with deep pockets who are taking spots away from deserving UK kids because the government can’t subsidize all of them. The Americans who choose St Andrews are solid, adventurous students who opt to study overseas at age 18 for four years. They contribute greatly to University life. “No hand holding” is really the catchall phrase the University fires back when American students want to hold it accountable for its many sub par services. For example- the University’s inability to house its students within walking distance- kids are housed in Dundee an hour bus ride away because the University over accepted and ran out of housing. We aren’t talking a ten minute shuttle bus, this is an hour+ long bus ride to another city to stay in the empty dorms belonging to another University in Dundee. The professors are unionized and quite often on strike, they cancel classes and stand outside on the shopping streets banging pots with spoons, leaving grad students to teach some, and recycling old zoom material from covid. There are no summer sessions, the University rents their dorms to golf tourists in the summers, so if you fall behind with credits, look forward to adding an extra year on to your studies, if they let you. They may expel you, saying you have run over the semesters allowed to complete your major in time, good luck somewhere else. There are two chances for academic assessment during the term- a midterm grade and a paper. They send the exams to students online, and if you have a problem with your internet that day, too bad. There is no academic advising system like there is in the States. You only use an advisor as a conduit for enrolling in your classes each year. They aren’t assigned to students for the duration of their studies. There is no academic mentor to advise or guide once classes are underway. Is this really “no handholding”? Or is this a gaslight-y way to make students feel like failures for questioning the sub par services available in comparison to similar Universities in the States? Student health services are also quite shaky in comparison to the support and privacy you can get in the states. It’s hard to get appointments, and if you have a health condition that interferes with your studies, it’s very very difficult to be excused from work you may have missed or need to redo. Don’t buy in to the “no handholding” stiff upper lip British thing. Americans have greatly bolstered St Andrews in every way; making do with less -than shouldn’t be a point of pride. In many ways, dealing with the admin at this University can be a lot like dealing with the DMV, don’t let them make you feel like you’re the problem.

+1. It’s a deeper problem/situation. Americans are looked down upon, especially at st andrews because it’s known that they and the internationals saved St Andrews after WWII. It simply would not exist except for the foreign dollar. I’ve got a kid at Oxford. Americans are treated as a necessary inconvenience. They don’t like colonials

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The large percentage of American students brings a friendly energy to the class-conscious British student body. The moody atmosphere of the ancient town complements majors like History and Literature, it’s a cinematic backdrop of a college town. Beware, though, the Stockholm syndrome the Americans have. The University takes dubious pride in tossing out the phrase “no handholding” at info sessions and orientations. “You are an adult. No handholding” is really a convenient way to dismiss students who are barely adults from expecting better service from the University. The collective eye rolling and disdain the administration has for the “silly” American undergrads who are “only there to meet royals” needs to be re examined. Don’t second guess yourself, Americans, this University falls seriously, significantly short in many ways but tries to make you feel needy and immature for expecting better service. Americans are subsidizing a giant chunk of the University by paying full tuition in comparison to the UK kids paying almost nothing, fine, but the University also unjustly paints these American kids as high maintenance, less impressive seat fillers with deep pockets who are taking spots away from deserving UK kids because the government can’t subsidize all of them. The Americans who choose St Andrews are solid, adventurous students who opt to study overseas at age 18 for four years. They contribute greatly to University life. “No hand holding” is really the catchall phrase the University fires back when American students want to hold it accountable for its many sub par services. For example- the University’s inability to house its students within walking distance- kids are housed in Dundee an hour bus ride away because the University over accepted and ran out of housing. We aren’t talking a ten minute shuttle bus, this is an hour+ long bus ride to another city to stay in the empty dorms belonging to another University in Dundee. The professors are unionized and quite often on strike, they cancel classes and stand outside on the shopping streets banging pots with spoons, leaving grad students to teach some, and recycling old zoom material from covid. There are no summer sessions, the University rents their dorms to golf tourists in the summers, so if you fall behind with credits, look forward to adding an extra year on to your studies, if they let you. They may expel you, saying you have run over the semesters allowed to complete your major in time, good luck somewhere else. There are two chances for academic assessment during the term- a midterm grade and a paper. They send the exams to students online, and if you have a problem with your internet that day, too bad. There is no academic advising system like there is in the States. You only use an advisor as a conduit for enrolling in your classes each year. They aren’t assigned to students for the duration of their studies. There is no academic mentor to advise or guide once classes are underway. Is this really “no handholding”? Or is this a gaslight-y way to make students feel like failures for questioning the sub par services available in comparison to similar Universities in the States? Student health services are also quite shaky in comparison to the support and privacy you can get in the states. It’s hard to get appointments, and if you have a health condition that interferes with your studies, it’s very very difficult to be excused from work you may have missed or need to redo. Don’t buy in to the “no handholding” stiff upper lip British thing. Americans have greatly bolstered St Andrews in every way; making do with less -than shouldn’t be a point of pride. In many ways, dealing with the admin at this University can be a lot like dealing with the DMV, don’t let them make you feel like you’re the problem.

+1. It’s a deeper problem/situation. Americans are looked down upon, especially at st andrews because it’s known that they and the internationals saved St Andrews after WWII. It simply would not exist except for the foreign dollar. I’ve got a kid at Oxford. Americans are treated as a necessary inconvenience. They don’t like colonials

every time with this ww2 thing. we've heard your opinion on this

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The large percentage of American students brings a friendly energy to the class-conscious British student body. The moody atmosphere of the ancient town complements majors like History and Literature, it’s a cinematic backdrop of a college town. Beware, though, the Stockholm syndrome the Americans have. The University takes dubious pride in tossing out the phrase “no handholding” at info sessions and orientations. “You are an adult. No handholding” is really a convenient way to dismiss students who are barely adults from expecting better service from the University. The collective eye rolling and disdain the administration has for the “silly” American undergrads who are “only there to meet royals” needs to be re examined. Don’t second guess yourself, Americans, this University falls seriously, significantly short in many ways but tries to make you feel needy and immature for expecting better service. Americans are subsidizing a giant chunk of the University by paying full tuition in comparison to the UK kids paying almost nothing, fine, but the University also unjustly paints these American kids as high maintenance, less impressive seat fillers with deep pockets who are taking spots away from deserving UK kids because the government can’t subsidize all of them. The Americans who choose St Andrews are solid, adventurous students who opt to study overseas at age 18 for four years. They contribute greatly to University life. “No hand holding” is really the catchall phrase the University fires back when American students want to hold it accountable for its many sub par services. For example- the University’s inability to house its students within walking distance- kids are housed in Dundee an hour bus ride away because the University over accepted and ran out of housing. We aren’t talking a ten minute shuttle bus, this is an hour+ long bus ride to another city to stay in the empty dorms belonging to another University in Dundee. The professors are unionized and quite often on strike, they cancel classes and stand outside on the shopping streets banging pots with spoons, leaving grad students to teach some, and recycling old zoom material from covid. There are no summer sessions, the University rents their dorms to golf tourists in the summers, so if you fall behind with credits, look forward to adding an extra year on to your studies, if they let you. They may expel you, saying you have run over the semesters allowed to complete your major in time, good luck somewhere else. There are two chances for academic assessment during the term- a midterm grade and a paper. They send the exams to students online, and if you have a problem with your internet that day, too bad. There is no academic advising system like there is in the States. You only use an advisor as a conduit for enrolling in your classes each year. They aren’t assigned to students for the duration of their studies. There is no academic mentor to advise or guide once classes are underway. Is this really “no handholding”? Or is this a gaslight-y way to make students feel like failures for questioning the sub par services available in comparison to similar Universities in the States? Student health services are also quite shaky in comparison to the support and privacy you can get in the states. It’s hard to get appointments, and if you have a health condition that interferes with your studies, it’s very very difficult to be excused from work you may have missed or need to redo. Don’t buy in to the “no handholding” stiff upper lip British thing. Americans have greatly bolstered St Andrews in every way; making do with less -than shouldn’t be a point of pride. In many ways, dealing with the admin at this University can be a lot like dealing with the DMV, don’t let them make you feel like you’re the problem.

+1. It’s a deeper problem/situation. Americans are looked down upon, especially at st andrews because it’s known that they and the internationals saved St Andrews after WWII. It simply would not exist except for the foreign dollar. I’ve got a kid at Oxford. Americans are treated as a necessary inconvenience. They don’t like colonials

every time with this ww2 thing. we've heard your opinion on this

“The University, hungry for foreign dollars..” m https://www.spectator.co.uk/article/america-s-campus-culture-wars-come-for-st-andrews/

[Anonymous]

I know an American student who was advocating for herself like a pro to appeal an unfair situation with the administration. First of all, it was almost impossible for her to talk to anyone who could support her appeal, because if you’re in the midst of an appeal, nobody in the administration will meet or speak with you. They completely freeze you out- even Deans of Learning, Wellness, etc etc. No contact. Undeterred, she rounded up letters of support from professors in the department of her major, they reassured her that it would be resolved with their support, as well as with the letters of support from the student services center. The anonymous Academic Senate went on to deny her appeal, saying “whilst” they were sympathetic, her evidence wasn’t “compelling”. No explanation for what they were looking for. Next. Done. Get a lawyer, kid, if you don’t like it. She had to leave school for poor grades resulting from a documented medical condition that she didn’t report properly. Since she didn’t report it at the proper time, they wouldn’t excuse some failing final exam grades. The Senate disregarded multiple Doctor letters in addition to her faculty support. It’s a trope that American kids at St Andrews go running to their parents for help. And why should educators scoff at concerned parents, anyway, when the fate of their students education is on the line? They certainly recruit the parents as well as the students, Sally Mapstone is literally selling tickets to an event at a private club in Manhattan to give parents access next week. These kids are more independent than the average 18 year olds, fending for themselves in a different country. This may be a bigger problem across the UK, but St Andrews is supposed to be “the best” now. They cling to this rigid “no handholding” mentality like it’s impressive. The University should feel queasy about the ethics of situations where one young adult’s fate is being decided by an anonymous group of apparently anti-American administrators. Many, many students need a ton of support right now post covid. “You didn’t reach out at the right time, so too bad” is an embarrassing policy for a University of this supposed stature . Their anonymous Senate sending decisions out via email is embarrassing for a university of this supposed stature. Parents should be aware that “no handholding” is t really character building- it’s a way for the University to hide behind an outdated mindset. Even if this is typical of the UK, they have a gaggle of Americans on their hands that they recruited. Maybe it’s time to do things differently for more successful student outcomes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I know an American student who was advocating for herself like a pro to appeal an unfair situation with the administration. First of all, it was almost impossible for her to talk to anyone who could support her appeal, because if you’re in the midst of an appeal, nobody in the administration will meet or speak with you. They completely freeze you out- even Deans of Learning, Wellness, etc etc. No contact. Undeterred, she rounded up letters of support from professors in the department of her major, they reassured her that it would be resolved with their support, as well as with the letters of support from the student services center. The anonymous Academic Senate went on to deny her appeal, saying “whilst” they were sympathetic, her evidence wasn’t “compelling”. No explanation for what they were looking for. Next. Done. Get a lawyer, kid, if you don’t like it. She had to leave school for poor grades resulting from a documented medical condition that she didn’t report properly. Since she didn’t report it at the proper time, they wouldn’t excuse some failing final exam grades. The Senate disregarded multiple Doctor letters in addition to her faculty support. It’s a trope that American kids at St Andrews go running to their parents for help. And why should educators scoff at concerned parents, anyway, when the fate of their students education is on the line? They certainly recruit the parents as well as the students, Sally Mapstone is literally selling tickets to an event at a private club in Manhattan to give parents access next week. These kids are more independent than the average 18 year olds, fending for themselves in a different country. This may be a bigger problem across the UK, but St Andrews is supposed to be “the best” now. They cling to this rigid “no handholding” mentality like it’s impressive. The University should feel queasy about the ethics of situations where one young adult’s fate is being decided by an anonymous group of apparently anti-American administrators. Many, many students need a ton of support right now post covid. “You didn’t reach out at the right time, so too bad” is an embarrassing policy for a University of this supposed stature . Their anonymous Senate sending decisions out via email is embarrassing for a university of this supposed stature. Parents should be aware that “no handholding” is t really character building- it’s a way for the University to hide behind an outdated mindset. Even if this is typical of the UK, they have a gaggle of Americans on their hands that they recruited. Maybe it’s time to do things differently for more successful student outcomes.

My DD had an identical situation at Oxford. She went to the Chancellor and finally got action. They really don't like Americans

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The large percentage of American students brings a friendly energy to the class-conscious British student body. The moody atmosphere of the ancient town complements majors like History and Literature, it’s a cinematic backdrop of a college town. Beware, though, the Stockholm syndrome the Americans have. The University takes dubious pride in tossing out the phrase “no handholding” at info sessions and orientations. “You are an adult. No handholding” is really a convenient way to dismiss students who are barely adults from expecting better service from the University. The collective eye rolling and disdain the administration has for the “silly” American undergrads who are “only there to meet royals” needs to be re examined. Don’t second guess yourself, Americans, this University falls seriously, significantly short in many ways but tries to make you feel needy and immature for expecting better service. Americans are subsidizing a giant chunk of the University by paying full tuition in comparison to the UK kids paying almost nothing, fine, but the University also unjustly paints these American kids as high maintenance, less impressive seat fillers with deep pockets who are taking spots away from deserving UK kids because the government can’t subsidize all of them. The Americans who choose St Andrews are solid, adventurous students who opt to study overseas at age 18 for four years. They contribute greatly to University life. “No hand holding” is really the catchall phrase the University fires back when American students want to hold it accountable for its many sub par services. For example- the University’s inability to house its students within walking distance- kids are housed in Dundee an hour bus ride away because the University over accepted and ran out of housing. We aren’t talking a ten minute shuttle bus, this is an hour+ long bus ride to another city to stay in the empty dorms belonging to another University in Dundee. The professors are unionized and quite often on strike, they cancel classes and stand outside on the shopping streets banging pots with spoons, leaving grad students to teach some, and recycling old zoom material from covid. There are no summer sessions, the University rents their dorms to golf tourists in the summers, so if you fall behind with credits, look forward to adding an extra year on to your studies, if they let you. They may expel you, saying you have run over the semesters allowed to complete your major in time, good luck somewhere else. There are two chances for academic assessment during the term- a midterm grade and a paper. They send the exams to students online, and if you have a problem with your internet that day, too bad. There is no academic advising system like there is in the States. You only use an advisor as a conduit for enrolling in your classes each year. They aren’t assigned to students for the duration of their studies. There is no academic mentor to advise or guide once classes are underway. Is this really “no handholding”? Or is this a gaslight-y way to make students feel like failures for questioning the sub par services available in comparison to similar Universities in the States? Student health services are also quite shaky in comparison to the support and privacy you can get in the states. It’s hard to get appointments, and if you have a health condition that interferes with your studies, it’s very very difficult to be excused from work you may have missed or need to redo. Don’t buy in to the “no handholding” stiff upper lip British thing. Americans have greatly bolstered St Andrews in every way; making do with less -than shouldn’t be a point of pride. In many ways, dealing with the admin at this University can be a lot like dealing with the DMV, don’t let them make you feel like you’re the problem.

+1. It’s a deeper problem/situation. Americans are looked down upon, especially at st andrews because it’s known that they and the internationals saved St Andrews after WWII. It simply would not exist except for the foreign dollar. I’ve got a kid at Oxford. Americans are treated as a necessary inconvenience. They don’t like colonials

every time with this ww2 thing. we've heard your opinion on this

Sorry your kid is there and you got suckered in. Go read up. Read wiki. Read articles. It's all there. The University has been going after foreign dollars - almost every cite will mention 1984 as a recorded date when it really took off. No other british university does this. St. Andrews has TEN dedicated officers who work just the US for US dollars. Think about that. What does that mean as to how your child will be treated once they've signed on?

[Anonymous]

My DC us in her third year there, loves it, has lots of friends and has been treated well by Admin, teachers, other students. We are not rich.

[Anonymous]

The girl I knew loved it, too, not rich, very involved, just had bad luck with her health… the administration is unprofessionally punitive. There is some chatter among boarding school college advisors no longer recommend the school because of these kinds of stories.

[Anonymous]

Sadly, mental health concerns are a significant problem at many top universities, and I don't know of many colleges that handle it particularly well. https://cornellsun.com/2018/12/26/report-criticizes-mental-health-leave-of-absence-policies-at-ivy-league-universities/. Even at the best funded institutions change policy changes are evolving slowly, e.g., Yale is just recently updated its policies. https://www.bestcolleges.com/news/yale-revamps-medical-leave-of-absence-policies/.

[Anonymous]

My child is there and loves it. I am happy there is no handholding. He is learning to fend for himself and act like a young adult. He loves his major, is meeting kids from all over the world and traveling through Europe on break. Speaking of handholding their first and second year grades at St Andrews don't count towards their final GPA. That actually feels pretty cushy to me, and allows them to acclimate academically.

Agreed the housing situation sucks but it's much the same at many US universities AKA CU boulder etc.