When is the plan for new HS programs coming out?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

Totally agree. There are plenty of top tier kids who don’t get into the criteria based programs who have to settle for the scraps…they will find kids to fill the criteria based options within the regions.

The majority of students at DC school score between the 95th and 98th percentiles on the MAP M. Those selected for magnet typically have well above 99%.

There’s a significant difference in math ability between these students and the rest of the school, although this gap isn’t always reflected in regular school math classes. Many students who are selected for magnet also participate in math competitions, math/science bowl clubs, etc.

Well I think the point that you’re making is that attending a magnet isn’t that crucial for a kid at a school with a strong peer cohort. Those 95%+ kids zoned for lower performing schools need special programs with spaces for them. And I think they need it more than the 99.5%er attending a W needs it.

You imply W students don’t deserve magnet programs or being challenged. Even with a strong cohort, the standard math curriculum is dull and lacks rigor. They won’t adapt the curriculum for W students. Even accelerating to Algebra in 6th grade, the content remains superficial, failing to prepare students for competitive STEM majors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

it's not that there 98%ile kids; it's that certain magnet classes are really hard, and not many kids are interested in taking it. But, if you have a program that takes the strongest kids from the county, then there is more demand for such classes.

This is the same type of scenario that MCPS uses when selecting students for the MS magnet. If you don't have a cohort in your home school, then you get selected. In this case, the cohort of kids would be those choosing to take the most challenging classes possible. Not even all of the RMIB kids take IB AA HL math. But there are enough of them who do that warrants that class.

If Kennedy IB had many students wanting that class, they would have offered it. Or, are they not offering it because there are no teachers who can teach it? That is also a problem.

RMIB also offers magnet level courses starting from 9th grade. The regional programs don't do that. Are they going to change it? Are the teachers from the other regions prepared to teach to that level in one year?

RMIB is pretty well known nationally at the IB conferences. Most IB schools only have like 10 to 15 kids in their IB HL AA math class, if at all. RMIB has 30+. Spreading those kids out to the regionals isn't going to create 6 strong programs. Rather, it will dilute it.

Look, I'm actually a big supporter of the "we need to invest in highly rigorous options for very gifted kids, even when they're a small minority" approach. But if the objections are boiling down to not wanting to make things worse for 30 kids a year at RMIB or 20 kids at Blair who want to take certain high level math classes-- if the issue is literally that you will not be able to offer these classes in 6 places around the county because there are only a few dozen kids a year in our 160,000-kid school system who are interested in and prepared to succeed in these classes-- then I'm sorry, but that's just excessive. I support brainstorming creative ways to support these kids getting the classes some other way, but it should absolutely not be used to tank the idea of more regional magnet programs that can serve and benefit hundreds and hundreds of smart, motivated kids a year more conveniently and equitably.

+1

----------------

20 kids not able to take one course out of 160k-kids school system

Vs

Thousands of kids getting better course options.


---------------

It shouldn't even be a debate.


I persoanlyl think you can easily find 20 kids in 4-5 HS combined who want to take those courses. I am sure lots of kids don't want to attend magnet for one reason or another who have higher credentials than many kids attending magnet. You can easily gather 20 kids like that to take the same course in regional choice.

Have you thought about these kids would not want to attend brand new unproven regional programs? Many kids would attend Blair/poolesville/RM, but would rather not attend crown magnet.

You are correct, initially many may not want to attend but enough will attend. With time, quality of kid in regional magnets will be pretty good.

I thought focusing on 8 different things will make it harder to offer quality programs. I would have liked to see it narrowed down to 2-3 subjects. Stem would be my first choice because it should be easier to provide good program. Not sure if MCPS can provide quality programs in all 8 different areas.

[Anonymous]

So what is the excuse now for not uploading the slides to the agenda so people can look at them in more detail?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

Totally agree. There are plenty of top tier kids who don’t get into the criteria based programs who have to settle for the scraps…they will find kids to fill the criteria based options within the regions.

The majority of students at DC school score between the 95th and 98th percentiles on the MAP M. Those selected for magnet typically have well above 99%.

There’s a significant difference in math ability between these students and the rest of the school, although this gap isn’t always reflected in regular school math classes. Many students who are selected for magnet also participate in math competitions, math/science bowl clubs, etc.

Well I think the point that you’re making is that attending a magnet isn’t that crucial for a kid at a school with a strong peer cohort. Those 95%+ kids zoned for lower performing schools need special programs with spaces for them. And I think they need it more than the 99.5%er attending a W needs it.

You imply W students don’t deserve magnet programs or being challenged. Even with a strong cohort, the standard math curriculum is dull and lacks rigor. They won’t adapt the curriculum for W students. Even accelerating to Algebra in 6th grade, the content remains superficial, failing to prepare students for competitive STEM majors.

I do not believe I implied that W students didn’t deserve opportunities. I pointed out that high achieving students in lower performing schools may have a greater need.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

it's not that there 98%ile kids; it's that certain magnet classes are really hard, and not many kids are interested in taking it. But, if you have a program that takes the strongest kids from the county, then there is more demand for such classes.

This is the same type of scenario that MCPS uses when selecting students for the MS magnet. If you don't have a cohort in your home school, then you get selected. In this case, the cohort of kids would be those choosing to take the most challenging classes possible. Not even all of the RMIB kids take IB AA HL math. But there are enough of them who do that warrants that class.

If Kennedy IB had many students wanting that class, they would have offered it. Or, are they not offering it because there are no teachers who can teach it? That is also a problem.

RMIB also offers magnet level courses starting from 9th grade. The regional programs don't do that. Are they going to change it? Are the teachers from the other regions prepared to teach to that level in one year?

RMIB is pretty well known nationally at the IB conferences. Most IB schools only have like 10 to 15 kids in their IB HL AA math class, if at all. RMIB has 30+. Spreading those kids out to the regionals isn't going to create 6 strong programs. Rather, it will dilute it.

Look, I'm actually a big supporter of the "we need to invest in highly rigorous options for very gifted kids, even when they're a small minority" approach. But if the objections are boiling down to not wanting to make things worse for 30 kids a year at RMIB or 20 kids at Blair who want to take certain high level math classes-- if the issue is literally that you will not be able to offer these classes in 6 places around the county because there are only a few dozen kids a year in our 160,000-kid school system who are interested in and prepared to succeed in these classes-- then I'm sorry, but that's just excessive. I support brainstorming creative ways to support these kids getting the classes some other way, but it should absolutely not be used to tank the idea of more regional magnet programs that can serve and benefit hundreds and hundreds of smart, motivated kids a year more conveniently and equitably.

+1

----------------

20 kids not able to take one course out of 160k-kids school system

Vs

Thousands of kids getting better course options.


---------------

It shouldn't even be a debate.


I persoanlyl think you can easily find 20 kids in 4-5 HS combined who want to take those courses. I am sure lots of kids don't want to attend magnet for one reason or another who have higher credentials than many kids attending magnet. You can easily gather 20 kids like that to take the same course in regional choice.

Have you thought about these kids would not want to attend brand new unproven regional programs? Many kids would attend Blair/poolesville/RM, but would rather not attend crown magnet.

You are correct, initially many may not want to attend but enough will attend. With time, quality of kid in regional magnets will be pretty good.

I thought focusing on 8 different things will make it harder to offer quality programs. I would have liked to see it narrowed down to 2-3 subjects. Stem would be my first choice because it should be easier to provide good program. Not sure if MCPS can provide quality programs in all 8 different areas.

Then MCPS needs a transition plan. If they aim to replace countywide magnet programs with regional ones, they should first establish robust regional programs and implement a gradual shift. They can’t dismiss the students who attend schools in between, and let them fall through the cracks.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

Totally agree. There are plenty of top tier kids who don’t get into the criteria based programs who have to settle for the scraps…they will find kids to fill the criteria based options within the regions.

The majority of students at DC school score between the 95th and 98th percentiles on the MAP M. Those selected for magnet typically have well above 99%.

There’s a significant difference in math ability between these students and the rest of the school, although this gap isn’t always reflected in regular school math classes. Many students who are selected for magnet also participate in math competitions, math/science bowl clubs, etc.

Well I think the point that you’re making is that attending a magnet isn’t that crucial for a kid at a school with a strong peer cohort. Those 95%+ kids zoned for lower performing schools need special programs with spaces for them. And I think they need it more than the 99.5%er attending a W needs it.

The point of the magnets is that they provide highly advanced and specialized courses for students who can handle the challenges. Many of these magnets require a lot of resources and money. You aren't going to find enough teachers who are capable of teaching extremely rigorous courses like college-level multivariable calculus or quantum physics (examples of electives offered at the MBHS STEM magnet).

I think that all students deserve a quality education that fits their needs. Yes, those in so-called "W schools" might have strong peer support. However, most of those schools do not even have any special academic programs, only regular honors and AP classes. Students who are extremely gifted in areas like humanities or STEM need specialized courses and programs, which are found in the magnets.

Sending students specifically from lower performing schools and placing them in the magnets would not even solve anything. For example, the courses in the MBHS STEM magnet are extremely tough-- many of them much harder than ones found in colleges like UMD. And, this is already from selecting the top students from across the county. If you do not select students strictly on merit and talent, many of these programs would not be suited for them. The quality and rigor of these countywide programs would drop, and it would defeat their entire purpose-- to provide educational opportunities for those that need extra challenges.

Students from lower performing schools do deserve better resources. But, these countywide magnets absolutely are needed and serve a purpose as well.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

Totally agree. There are plenty of top tier kids who don’t get into the criteria based programs who have to settle for the scraps…they will find kids to fill the criteria based options within the regions.

The majority of students at DC school score between the 95th and 98th percentiles on the MAP M. Those selected for magnet typically have well above 99%.

There’s a significant difference in math ability between these students and the rest of the school, although this gap isn’t always reflected in regular school math classes. Many students who are selected for magnet also participate in math competitions, math/science bowl clubs, etc.

Well I think the point that you’re making is that attending a magnet isn’t that crucial for a kid at a school with a strong peer cohort. Those 95%+ kids zoned for lower performing schools need special programs with spaces for them. And I think they need it more than the 99.5%er attending a W needs it.

You imply W students don’t deserve magnet programs or being challenged. Even with a strong cohort, the standard math curriculum is dull and lacks rigor. They won’t adapt the curriculum for W students. Even accelerating to Algebra in 6th grade, the content remains superficial, failing to prepare students for competitive STEM majors.

I absolutely agree. Schools like Churchill or Wootton don't even have any special programs, despite being some of the highest performing schools by test scores. However, that also means that high achieving kids in those schools are not being challenged enough.

[Anonymous]

Is there a plan for what will happen to students in the middle of their high school years at the time of the change?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

it's not that there 98%ile kids; it's that certain magnet classes are really hard, and not many kids are interested in taking it. But, if you have a program that takes the strongest kids from the county, then there is more demand for such classes.

This is the same type of scenario that MCPS uses when selecting students for the MS magnet. If you don't have a cohort in your home school, then you get selected. In this case, the cohort of kids would be those choosing to take the most challenging classes possible. Not even all of the RMIB kids take IB AA HL math. But there are enough of them who do that warrants that class.

If Kennedy IB had many students wanting that class, they would have offered it. Or, are they not offering it because there are no teachers who can teach it? That is also a problem.

RMIB also offers magnet level courses starting from 9th grade. The regional programs don't do that. Are they going to change it? Are the teachers from the other regions prepared to teach to that level in one year?

RMIB is pretty well known nationally at the IB conferences. Most IB schools only have like 10 to 15 kids in their IB HL AA math class, if at all. RMIB has 30+. Spreading those kids out to the regionals isn't going to create 6 strong programs. Rather, it will dilute it.

Look, I'm actually a big supporter of the "we need to invest in highly rigorous options for very gifted kids, even when they're a small minority" approach. But if the objections are boiling down to not wanting to make things worse for 30 kids a year at RMIB or 20 kids at Blair who want to take certain high level math classes-- if the issue is literally that you will not be able to offer these classes in 6 places around the county because there are only a few dozen kids a year in our 160,000-kid school system who are interested in and prepared to succeed in these classes-- then I'm sorry, but that's just excessive. I support brainstorming creative ways to support these kids getting the classes some other way, but it should absolutely not be used to tank the idea of more regional magnet programs that can serve and benefit hundreds and hundreds of smart, motivated kids a year more conveniently and equitably.

So why not keep current highly successful county magnets intact, and introduce 6 regional programs with classes that will challenge hundreds of 'smart, motivated kids' taught by top teachers in any given region.

Exactly. Why one has to replace another?

Many of the magnets are already struggling with teachers and resources. There simply aren't enough teachers capable of staffing that many programs successfully. Adding 6 regional programs would make everything explode.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

it's not that there 98%ile kids; it's that certain magnet classes are really hard, and not many kids are interested in taking it. But, if you have a program that takes the strongest kids from the county, then there is more demand for such classes.

This is the same type of scenario that MCPS uses when selecting students for the MS magnet. If you don't have a cohort in your home school, then you get selected. In this case, the cohort of kids would be those choosing to take the most challenging classes possible. Not even all of the RMIB kids take IB AA HL math. But there are enough of them who do that warrants that class.

If Kennedy IB had many students wanting that class, they would have offered it. Or, are they not offering it because there are no teachers who can teach it? That is also a problem.

RMIB also offers magnet level courses starting from 9th grade. The regional programs don't do that. Are they going to change it? Are the teachers from the other regions prepared to teach to that level in one year?

RMIB is pretty well known nationally at the IB conferences. Most IB schools only have like 10 to 15 kids in their IB HL AA math class, if at all. RMIB has 30+. Spreading those kids out to the regionals isn't going to create 6 strong programs. Rather, it will dilute it.

Look, I'm actually a big supporter of the "we need to invest in highly rigorous options for very gifted kids, even when they're a small minority" approach. But if the objections are boiling down to not wanting to make things worse for 30 kids a year at RMIB or 20 kids at Blair who want to take certain high level math classes-- if the issue is literally that you will not be able to offer these classes in 6 places around the county because there are only a few dozen kids a year in our 160,000-kid school system who are interested in and prepared to succeed in these classes-- then I'm sorry, but that's just excessive. I support brainstorming creative ways to support these kids getting the classes some other way, but it should absolutely not be used to tank the idea of more regional magnet programs that can serve and benefit hundreds and hundreds of smart, motivated kids a year more conveniently and equitably.

So why not keep current highly successful county magnets intact, and introduce 6 regional programs with classes that will challenge hundreds of 'smart, motivated kids' taught by top teachers in any given region.

Exactly. Why one has to replace another?

Many of the magnets are already struggling with teachers and resources. There simply aren't enough teachers capable of staffing that many programs successfully. Adding 6 regional programs would make everything explode.

Wouldn't magnet teaching jobs be thought of as more attractive positions?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

it's not that there 98%ile kids; it's that certain magnet classes are really hard, and not many kids are interested in taking it. But, if you have a program that takes the strongest kids from the county, then there is more demand for such classes.

This is the same type of scenario that MCPS uses when selecting students for the MS magnet. If you don't have a cohort in your home school, then you get selected. In this case, the cohort of kids would be those choosing to take the most challenging classes possible. Not even all of the RMIB kids take IB AA HL math. But there are enough of them who do that warrants that class.

If Kennedy IB had many students wanting that class, they would have offered it. Or, are they not offering it because there are no teachers who can teach it? That is also a problem.

RMIB also offers magnet level courses starting from 9th grade. The regional programs don't do that. Are they going to change it? Are the teachers from the other regions prepared to teach to that level in one year?

RMIB is pretty well known nationally at the IB conferences. Most IB schools only have like 10 to 15 kids in their IB HL AA math class, if at all. RMIB has 30+. Spreading those kids out to the regionals isn't going to create 6 strong programs. Rather, it will dilute it.

Look, I'm actually a big supporter of the "we need to invest in highly rigorous options for very gifted kids, even when they're a small minority" approach. But if the objections are boiling down to not wanting to make things worse for 30 kids a year at RMIB or 20 kids at Blair who want to take certain high level math classes-- if the issue is literally that you will not be able to offer these classes in 6 places around the county because there are only a few dozen kids a year in our 160,000-kid school system who are interested in and prepared to succeed in these classes-- then I'm sorry, but that's just excessive. I support brainstorming creative ways to support these kids getting the classes some other way, but it should absolutely not be used to tank the idea of more regional magnet programs that can serve and benefit hundreds and hundreds of smart, motivated kids a year more conveniently and equitably.

So why not keep current highly successful county magnets intact, and introduce 6 regional programs with classes that will challenge hundreds of 'smart, motivated kids' taught by top teachers in any given region.

Exactly. Why one has to replace another?

Many of the magnets are already struggling with teachers and resources. There simply aren't enough teachers capable of staffing that many programs successfully. Adding 6 regional programs would make everything explode.

It seems like the people demanding more regional programs aren’t thinking about teachers. They assume that putting their high-performing kids together in regions will magically fix everything. But what they don’t seem to get is that MCPS simply doesn’t have enough qualified teachers to run magnet-level programs across the board.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

it's not that there 98%ile kids; it's that certain magnet classes are really hard, and not many kids are interested in taking it. But, if you have a program that takes the strongest kids from the county, then there is more demand for such classes.

This is the same type of scenario that MCPS uses when selecting students for the MS magnet. If you don't have a cohort in your home school, then you get selected. In this case, the cohort of kids would be those choosing to take the most challenging classes possible. Not even all of the RMIB kids take IB AA HL math. But there are enough of them who do that warrants that class.

If Kennedy IB had many students wanting that class, they would have offered it. Or, are they not offering it because there are no teachers who can teach it? That is also a problem.

RMIB also offers magnet level courses starting from 9th grade. The regional programs don't do that. Are they going to change it? Are the teachers from the other regions prepared to teach to that level in one year?

RMIB is pretty well known nationally at the IB conferences. Most IB schools only have like 10 to 15 kids in their IB HL AA math class, if at all. RMIB has 30+. Spreading those kids out to the regionals isn't going to create 6 strong programs. Rather, it will dilute it.

Look, I'm actually a big supporter of the "we need to invest in highly rigorous options for very gifted kids, even when they're a small minority" approach. But if the objections are boiling down to not wanting to make things worse for 30 kids a year at RMIB or 20 kids at Blair who want to take certain high level math classes-- if the issue is literally that you will not be able to offer these classes in 6 places around the county because there are only a few dozen kids a year in our 160,000-kid school system who are interested in and prepared to succeed in these classes-- then I'm sorry, but that's just excessive. I support brainstorming creative ways to support these kids getting the classes some other way, but it should absolutely not be used to tank the idea of more regional magnet programs that can serve and benefit hundreds and hundreds of smart, motivated kids a year more conveniently and equitably.

So why not keep current highly successful county magnets intact, and introduce 6 regional programs with classes that will challenge hundreds of 'smart, motivated kids' taught by top teachers in any given region.

Exactly. Why one has to replace another?

Many of the magnets are already struggling with teachers and resources. There simply aren't enough teachers capable of staffing that many programs successfully. Adding 6 regional programs would make everything explode.

It seems like the people demanding more regional programs aren’t thinking about teachers. They assume that putting their high-performing kids together in regions will magically fix everything. But what they don’t seem to get is that MCPS simply doesn’t have enough qualified teachers to run magnet-level programs across the board.

I am thinking,

A bunch of high perfomring kids together in mini magnet with similar teachers as home HS with better courses.

Vs

Those kids not together with less choice in courses with same set of teachers in HS.

Clearly, mini magnet is a far better choice for vast majority of kids who can make the cut.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

it's not that there 98%ile kids; it's that certain magnet classes are really hard, and not many kids are interested in taking it. But, if you have a program that takes the strongest kids from the county, then there is more demand for such classes.

This is the same type of scenario that MCPS uses when selecting students for the MS magnet. If you don't have a cohort in your home school, then you get selected. In this case, the cohort of kids would be those choosing to take the most challenging classes possible. Not even all of the RMIB kids take IB AA HL math. But there are enough of them who do that warrants that class.

If Kennedy IB had many students wanting that class, they would have offered it. Or, are they not offering it because there are no teachers who can teach it? That is also a problem.

RMIB also offers magnet level courses starting from 9th grade. The regional programs don't do that. Are they going to change it? Are the teachers from the other regions prepared to teach to that level in one year?

RMIB is pretty well known nationally at the IB conferences. Most IB schools only have like 10 to 15 kids in their IB HL AA math class, if at all. RMIB has 30+. Spreading those kids out to the regionals isn't going to create 6 strong programs. Rather, it will dilute it.

Look, I'm actually a big supporter of the "we need to invest in highly rigorous options for very gifted kids, even when they're a small minority" approach. But if the objections are boiling down to not wanting to make things worse for 30 kids a year at RMIB or 20 kids at Blair who want to take certain high level math classes-- if the issue is literally that you will not be able to offer these classes in 6 places around the county because there are only a few dozen kids a year in our 160,000-kid school system who are interested in and prepared to succeed in these classes-- then I'm sorry, but that's just excessive. I support brainstorming creative ways to support these kids getting the classes some other way, but it should absolutely not be used to tank the idea of more regional magnet programs that can serve and benefit hundreds and hundreds of smart, motivated kids a year more conveniently and equitably.

So why not keep current highly successful county magnets intact, and introduce 6 regional programs with classes that will challenge hundreds of 'smart, motivated kids' taught by top teachers in any given region.

Exactly. Why one has to replace another?

Many of the magnets are already struggling with teachers and resources. There simply aren't enough teachers capable of staffing that many programs successfully. Adding 6 regional programs would make everything explode.

Wouldn't magnet teaching jobs be thought of as more attractive positions?

It's a matter of competency rather than interest.

Considering the salary of teachers, how many do you think would be capable of effectively teaching post-AP courses while challenging the very top students in the county?

I've heard that the Blair Magnet is struggling with finding replacement teachers right now, even without all the regional magnets. I think more than 5-6 teachers have left in the past few years from retirement or other reasons.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

Totally agree. There are plenty of top tier kids who don’t get into the criteria based programs who have to settle for the scraps…they will find kids to fill the criteria based options within the regions.

The majority of students at DC school score between the 95th and 98th percentiles on the MAP M. Those selected for magnet typically have well above 99%.

There’s a significant difference in math ability between these students and the rest of the school, although this gap isn’t always reflected in regular school math classes. Many students who are selected for magnet also participate in math competitions, math/science bowl clubs, etc.

Well I think the point that you’re making is that attending a magnet isn’t that crucial for a kid at a school with a strong peer cohort. Those 95%+ kids zoned for lower performing schools need special programs with spaces for them. And I think they need it more than the 99.5%er attending a W needs it.

You imply W students don’t deserve magnet programs or being challenged. Even with a strong cohort, the standard math curriculum is dull and lacks rigor. They won’t adapt the curriculum for W students. Even accelerating to Algebra in 6th grade, the content remains superficial, failing to prepare students for competitive STEM majors.

W schools have many advanced classes. Your kids will be fine. It’s the dcc kids who have nothing outside the magnets and don’t get in will struggle as they don’t have the offerings.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:For those of you with super special bright children, good for you. But this is public school and it cannot cater to the needs of a tiny minority.

I don’t understand why this kind of narrative continues to prevail. Whether it’s countywide or regional magnet programs, they only serve a small minority of students. Take TJ in Fairfax, for example — it’s the same case. So why can’t MCPS offer the same level of opportunity that Fairfax County does? Are we just inferior to our neighbors?

It’s about resources. There are limited resources.

Yeah in MoCo we pay higher taxes but have fewer resources. Maybe they should look at all the wasteful spending MCPS does. So if Blair/poolsville/RM no longer exist as countywide programs, more people will be fleeing away from this crappy place. It’s asinine and shortsighted to kill these long time established flagship programs at Moco while Fairfax keeps to be proud of its well-known TJ.

If parents are really going to flee because they can't bear to have their top 1% kid in class with a lowly top 5% kid, or because they might have to take one math class virtually their senior year, then good riddance, honestly. They can go to the private schools they crave and their families can afford, and meanwhile 6 times more kids who would benefit from strong programming will get it (including top 1% kids who used to not be able to go to countywide programs due to logistics.)

The vast majority of magnet kids are not wealthy enough to send their kids to specialized private school. But even if they could, most private schools cannot offer what MCPS magnet schools offer, which is why some private school students end up going to these magnets if they get in.

Those county wide magnets are one of the few shining stars in MCPS. It's one of the reasons why we were drawn to this school district from out west. It offers various programs for very high achieving kids that many school districts do not. Even if my kid didn't make it to one of the magnets, the fact that there are such programs here means it draws high achieving kids to the school district.

If you take that away, MCPS becomes a middling school district. It's ironic that MCPS likes to tout the SAT/AP scores etc of high achieving students, and then at the same time tell them that they should not expect to have their needs met in school.

Dumbing down the entire school district is not a worthy goal. A county wide magnet attracts the very top, which means they have a sizeable cohort of like high achieving students.

I think regional programs have its place, but so does a county wide magnet.

Why dod we need a county wide magnet if we have regional magnets. If the regional model offered what kids needed who would be choosing to go further away from home just to attend a county wide magnet. Yes you moved here because of what you heard about one magnet. That doesn't mean it's going to stay like that forever into eternity.

A county wide magnet draws the top performers in the entire county, whereas the regional only draws from a few HS. The peer group will be different.

Look at the IB classes offered at RMIB vs a school like Kennedy, a regional IB magnet. RMIB offers more IB classes than Kennedy because there is demand for it. RM has IB AN/APP HL, and it also has two MVC classes. Kennedy doesn't offer IB HL math.

If you make RM regional, the demand for these classes will be lower, and it will not be cost effective to keep those additional IB classes.

This effectively dumbs down the IB program.

That's an assumption. The Kennedy IB program and the RMIB program were not setup to operate the same initially.

The "magnet" portion of the Kennedy IB program is also very new. Class of 2025 was the first graduating class, which means it was also the first real opportunity for HL math. I'm not defending the decision not to offer it, but this is a new program, in a troubled school, with a tiny cohort. I don't think it tells us much about regional programs.

Exactly. And the fact that the RM county-wide program still exist as a county program, actually dilutes from the regional programs.

It's the other way. If you split the strong RMIB cohort across six regions mixed with other students you will just have weaker regional IB programs. RMIB is the strongest program in part because the top 100 or so are in one program. Splitting them up just dilutes a strong program into several weaker ones.

You guys really need to provide some evidence of how having 95th-98th percentile kids in a program makes it "weak" and ruins it.

Totally agree. There are plenty of top tier kids who don’t get into the criteria based programs who have to settle for the scraps…they will find kids to fill the criteria based options within the regions.

The majority of students at DC school score between the 95th and 98th percentiles on the MAP M. Those selected for magnet typically have well above 99%.

There’s a significant difference in math ability between these students and the rest of the school, although this gap isn’t always reflected in regular school math classes. Many students who are selected for magnet also participate in math competitions, math/science bowl clubs, etc.

Well I think the point that you’re making is that attending a magnet isn’t that crucial for a kid at a school with a strong peer cohort. Those 95%+ kids zoned for lower performing schools need special programs with spaces for them. And I think they need it more than the 99.5%er attending a W needs it.

You imply W students don’t deserve magnet programs or being challenged. Even with a strong cohort, the standard math curriculum is dull and lacks rigor. They won’t adapt the curriculum for W students. Even accelerating to Algebra in 6th grade, the content remains superficial, failing to prepare students for competitive STEM majors.

I absolutely agree. Schools like Churchill or Wootton don't even have any special programs, despite being some of the highest performing schools by test scores. However, that also means that high achieving kids in those schools are not being challenged enough.

Your schools offer far more than ours.