Summer swim brings out the crazy

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just read through this thread as I used to swim (but my kids do not) so many posts brought back memories of my summers from many, many years ago.

I am in a way relieved to hear of all the drama these days with summer swim, club level swim, etc. My kids play soccer competitively and I often wish that they had gotten into more "objective" sports where the decision for advancement is not based on a coach's subjective observation but an objective measure like a clock. It is almost a relief to hear that even in a time-based sport like swimming the parent drama exists!

My kids do soccer and swim. I find soccer less stressful. The way they evaluate players is definitely more ambiguous, but my oldest seems to come out on the good side of that at least for now. He is a hard worker, unselfish, and really hustles on defense so I think that those things work in his favor as opposed to a kid with an ego always asking to play up front. And in a team sport there is at least some appreciation that they all have different roles to play and that they have to play as a team to succeed. Not too many politics yet, maybe we have been lucky.

The way summer swim is done here really does pit friends against each other, and certain parents egg it on. I get very annoyed when I hear my friend’s kid talking smack to mine and hearing their parents try to motivate them to specifically beat my kid in races. I tell my kids it’s about doing your own best times and however that plays out in the ladder is what it is. The A meet/B meet structure creates a haves vs. have nots dynamic that goes against the message that summer swim is for fun. And sending out the ladder is nice for transparency but bad for parents who obsess over everyone else’s times. I loved summer swim as a kid but as a parents it’s kind of a love/hate.

The second part of your post is spot on. It’s why I much prefer the club season to summer swim. At club, everyone in your practice group swims the same non-champs meets. And for champs meets, when you hit the cut time you’re in, you don’t need to be faster than another kid, you just need to worry about your time and whether it’s under the cut.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just read through this thread as I used to swim (but my kids do not) so many posts brought back memories of my summers from many, many years ago.

I am in a way relieved to hear of all the drama these days with summer swim, club level swim, etc. My kids play soccer competitively and I often wish that they had gotten into more "objective" sports where the decision for advancement is not based on a coach's subjective observation but an objective measure like a clock. It is almost a relief to hear that even in a time-based sport like swimming the parent drama exists!

My kids do soccer and swim. I find soccer less stressful. The way they evaluate players is definitely more ambiguous, but my oldest seems to come out on the good side of that at least for now. He is a hard worker, unselfish, and really hustles on defense so I think that those things work in his favor as opposed to a kid with an ego always asking to play up front. And in a team sport there is at least some appreciation that they all have different roles to play and that they have to play as a team to succeed. Not too many politics yet, maybe we have been lucky.

The way summer swim is done here really does pit friends against each other, and certain parents egg it on. I get very annoyed when I hear my friend’s kid talking smack to mine and hearing their parents try to motivate them to specifically beat my kid in races. I tell my kids it’s about doing your own best times and however that plays out in the ladder is what it is. The A meet/B meet structure creates a haves vs. have nots dynamic that goes against the message that summer swim is for fun. And sending out the ladder is nice for transparency but bad for parents who obsess over everyone else’s times. I loved summer swim as a kid but as a parents it’s kind of a love/hate.

All the sports have ways they go about stratifying kids and playing favorites. The problem with team sports are you have to have scout teams/players. What I didn't like about soccer is they automatically decline penalties if there is no advantage for stopping play, and all of the coaches kids just happened to know where they could get away with nasty fouls. We had to sit and watch a former head coaches daughter play striker, but couldn't out run a turtle, game after game wide open path to the goal getting run down and tackled. In the end they just wanted to practice tackling on my daughter. Even though she scored a goal as striker in the two minutes she played it all season.

I agree about the B meets. If you don't make an A meet you're clearly getting less value out of the activity. In our team the A meet kids seldom go to team practices or talk to the other kids. Even when they do go to practices they have special lanes only year round swimmers can swim in. Coaches don't even respect speed my DD had a better time trial time but they skipped her in line for the A meets.

Save your money and get a pool membership. Just another day at the competitive spa.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I agree about the B meets. If you don't make an A meet you're clearly getting less value out of the activity. In our team the A meet kids seldom go to team practices or talk to the other kids.

Sounds like your B meet swimmers are getting more out of the activity if they're the kids at practice every day

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I agree about the B meets. If you don't make an A meet you're clearly getting less value out of the activity. In our team the A meet kids seldom go to team practices or talk to the other kids.

Sounds like your B meet swimmers are getting more out of the activity if they're the kids at practice every day

Depends what you consider the activity for which you ascribe value? If I ask my 2 teens (and full disclosure they do club), all the various fun friday activities will be first and foremost. From the parents and kids I've taked to, making A meets also isn't the end all be all. If it is for your kids, I'm sorry.

[Anonymous]

On big teams a lot of younger kids could care less about A meets

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:On big teams a lot of younger kids could care less about A meets

Agree. When they are younger, there are just as many non-A kids as A kids. They all have a good time. It's about 13+ where the divide starts. The kids at A meets and all the adjacent extra meets spend hours and hours together. Of course they are a clique. The social dynamics of older kids also get more complicated. At our large higher division pool, most non-A meet teens just drop out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On big teams a lot of younger kids could care less about A meets

Agree. When they are younger, there are just as many non-A kids as A kids. They all have a good time. It's about 13+ where the divide starts. The kids at A meets and all the adjacent extra meets spend hours and hours together. Of course they are a clique. The social dynamics of older kids also get more complicated. At our large higher division pool, most non-A meet teens just drop out.

I hazard to say older kids drop out of swim there are a multitude of reasons including other interests like other sports where there's a big summer season component (e.g., lacrosses, baseball), other camps. I don't know that i would pin the the reason why older kids drop out solely based on "oh, I'm not fast enough to swim in A meets".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just read through this thread as I used to swim (but my kids do not) so many posts brought back memories of my summers from many, many years ago.

I am in a way relieved to hear of all the drama these days with summer swim, club level swim, etc. My kids play soccer competitively and I often wish that they had gotten into more "objective" sports where the decision for advancement is not based on a coach's subjective observation but an objective measure like a clock. It is almost a relief to hear that even in a time-based sport like swimming the parent drama exists!

My kids do soccer and swim. I find soccer less stressful. The way they evaluate players is definitely more ambiguous, but my oldest seems to come out on the good side of that at least for now. He is a hard worker, unselfish, and really hustles on defense so I think that those things work in his favor as opposed to a kid with an ego always asking to play up front. And in a team sport there is at least some appreciation that they all have different roles to play and that they have to play as a team to succeed. Not too many politics yet, maybe we have been lucky.

The way summer swim is done here really does pit friends against each other, and certain parents egg it on. I get very annoyed when I hear my friend’s kid talking smack to mine and hearing their parents try to motivate them to specifically beat my kid in races. I tell my kids it’s about doing your own best times and however that plays out in the ladder is what it is. The A meet/B meet structure creates a haves vs. have nots dynamic that goes against the message that summer swim is for fun. And sending out the ladder is nice for transparency but bad for parents who obsess over everyone else’s times. I loved summer swim as a kid but as a parents it’s kind of a love/hate.

All the sports have ways they go about stratifying kids and playing favorites. The problem with team sports are you have to have scout teams/players. What I didn't like about soccer is they automatically decline penalties if there is no advantage for stopping play, and all of the coaches kids just happened to know where they could get away with nasty fouls. We had to sit and watch a former head coaches daughter play striker, but couldn't out run a turtle, game after game wide open path to the goal getting run down and tackled. In the end they just wanted to practice tackling on my daughter. Even though she scored a goal as striker in the two minutes she played it all season.

I agree about the B meets. If you don't make an A meet you're clearly getting less value out of the activity. In our team the A meet kids seldom go to team practices or talk to the other kids. Even when they do go to practices they have special lanes only year round swimmers can swim in. Coaches don't even respect speed my DD had a better time trial time but they skipped her in line for the A meets.

Save your money and get a pool membership. Just another day at the competitive spa.

Come on. Is this for real? special lanes only for year-round swimmers. Even among year-round swimmers, there's a diverse range of abilities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On big teams a lot of younger kids could care less about A meets

Agree. When they are younger, there are just as many non-A kids as A kids. They all have a good time. It's about 13+ where the divide starts. The kids at A meets and all the adjacent extra meets spend hours and hours together. Of course they are a clique. The social dynamics of older kids also get more complicated. At our large higher division pool, most non-A meet teens just drop out.

I hazard to say older kids drop out of swim there are a multitude of reasons including other interests like other sports where there's a big summer season component (e.g., lacrosses, baseball), other camps. I don't know that i would pin the the reason why older kids drop out solely based on "oh, I'm not fast enough to swim in A meets".

Long time summer swim parent here. I don't know. The same names show up year after year for the A meet. You can watch them age through the team. If what you were saying was the main cause and it had zero to do with being in A meets, an equal proportion of the A kids would end up dropping out. Seems kind of notable that the A meet kids all stay and the B meet kids mostly drop out as teens.

It is what it is. It's a structure that creates 2 different experiences kids are having. What teenager is going to keep hanging around to spend a long evening at a B meet with a silly theme and go to some pep rallies. Most of them aren't. The B meet swimmers who stick around as teens on our team end up junior coaches. Which that makes sense to me. A paid job and leadership opportunity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On big teams a lot of younger kids could care less about A meets

Agree. When they are younger, there are just as many non-A kids as A kids. They all have a good time. It's about 13+ where the divide starts. The kids at A meets and all the adjacent extra meets spend hours and hours together. Of course they are a clique. The social dynamics of older kids also get more complicated. At our large higher division pool, most non-A meet teens just drop out.

I hazard to say older kids drop out of swim there are a multitude of reasons including other interests like other sports where there's a big summer season component (e.g., lacrosses, baseball), other camps. I don't know that i would pin the the reason why older kids drop out solely based on "oh, I'm not fast enough to swim in A meets".

Long time summer swim parent here. I don't know. The same names show up year after year for the A meet. You can watch them age through the team. If what you were saying was the main cause and it had zero to do with being in A meets, an equal proportion of the A kids would end up dropping out. Seems kind of notable that the A meet kids all stay and the B meet kids mostly drop out as teens.

It is what it is. It's a structure that creates 2 different experiences kids are having. What teenager is going to keep hanging around to spend a long evening at a B meet with a silly theme and go to some pep rallies. Most of them aren't. The B meet swimmers who stick around as teens on our team end up junior coaches. Which that makes sense to me. A paid job and leadership opportunity.

DP, and I think you are confusing correlation with causation. Kids who swim A meets like swimming and put in the work (you would assume). They're less likely to drop out not because they're fast, but because they enjoy swim enough to be fast.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just read through this thread as I used to swim (but my kids do not) so many posts brought back memories of my summers from many, many years ago.

I am in a way relieved to hear of all the drama these days with summer swim, club level swim, etc. My kids play soccer competitively and I often wish that they had gotten into more "objective" sports where the decision for advancement is not based on a coach's subjective observation but an objective measure like a clock. It is almost a relief to hear that even in a time-based sport like swimming the parent drama exists!

My kids do soccer and swim. I find soccer less stressful. The way they evaluate players is definitely more ambiguous, but my oldest seems to come out on the good side of that at least for now. He is a hard worker, unselfish, and really hustles on defense so I think that those things work in his favor as opposed to a kid with an ego always asking to play up front. And in a team sport there is at least some appreciation that they all have different roles to play and that they have to play as a team to succeed. Not too many politics yet, maybe we have been lucky.

The way summer swim is done here really does pit friends against each other, and certain parents egg it on. I get very annoyed when I hear my friend’s kid talking smack to mine and hearing their parents try to motivate them to specifically beat my kid in races. I tell my kids it’s about doing your own best times and however that plays out in the ladder is what it is. The A meet/B meet structure creates a haves vs. have nots dynamic that goes against the message that summer swim is for fun. And sending out the ladder is nice for transparency but bad for parents who obsess over everyone else’s times. I loved summer swim as a kid but as a parents it’s kind of a love/hate.

All the sports have ways they go about stratifying kids and playing favorites. The problem with team sports are you have to have scout teams/players. What I didn't like about soccer is they automatically decline penalties if there is no advantage for stopping play, and all of the coaches kids just happened to know where they could get away with nasty fouls. We had to sit and watch a former head coaches daughter play striker, but couldn't out run a turtle, game after game wide open path to the goal getting run down and tackled. In the end they just wanted to practice tackling on my daughter. Even though she scored a goal as striker in the two minutes she played it all season.

I agree about the B meets. If you don't make an A meet you're clearly getting less value out of the activity. In our team the A meet kids seldom go to team practices or talk to the other kids. Even when they do go to practices they have special lanes only year round swimmers can swim in. Coaches don't even respect speed my DD had a better time trial time but they skipped her in line for the A meets.

Save your money and get a pool membership. Just another day at the competitive spa.

Come on. Is this for real? special lanes only for year-round swimmers. Even among year-round swimmers, there's a diverse range of abilities.

You wouldn't believe it, but yeah. One year they had an assessment those were for the lanes where the kids "knew all the strokes", but as you mention there is a diverse range of abilities. So, I was told (I wasn't there the first day), they just said these are for year-round swimmers even the slow ones. They do subdivide the two lanes, slow year-round swimmers and fast year-round swimmers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On big teams a lot of younger kids could care less about A meets

Agree. When they are younger, there are just as many non-A kids as A kids. They all have a good time. It's about 13+ where the divide starts. The kids at A meets and all the adjacent extra meets spend hours and hours together. Of course they are a clique. The social dynamics of older kids also get more complicated. At our large higher division pool, most non-A meet teens just drop out.

I hazard to say older kids drop out of swim there are a multitude of reasons including other interests like other sports where there's a big summer season component (e.g., lacrosses, baseball), other camps. I don't know that i would pin the the reason why older kids drop out solely based on "oh, I'm not fast enough to swim in A meets".

Long time summer swim parent here. I don't know. The same names show up year after year for the A meet. You can watch them age through the team. If what you were saying was the main cause and it had zero to do with being in A meets, an equal proportion of the A kids would end up dropping out. Seems kind of notable that the A meet kids all stay and the B meet kids mostly drop out as teens.

It is what it is. It's a structure that creates 2 different experiences kids are having. What teenager is going to keep hanging around to spend a long evening at a B meet with a silly theme and go to some pep rallies. Most of them aren't. The B meet swimmers who stick around as teens on our team end up junior coaches. Which that makes sense to me. A paid job and leadership opportunity.

We have a large team and while yes there are some who kids per age group who are so fast they only swim A meets, most kids do a mix of both or even if they only make it to B meets they still love it. They usually quit because they have another sport or activity that takes precedence or they have to get a job over the summers. Some of the B swimmers who stay become A swimmers because there are fewer 15-18 year olds as attrition happens. Our team focuses on spirit/fun as much as competition, it’s very welcoming. I think that’s why they love it so much. It’s not just about the swimming.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Just read through this thread as I used to swim (but my kids do not) so many posts brought back memories of my summers from many, many years ago.

I am in a way relieved to hear of all the drama these days with summer swim, club level swim, etc. My kids play soccer competitively and I often wish that they had gotten into more "objective" sports where the decision for advancement is not based on a coach's subjective observation but an objective measure like a clock. It is almost a relief to hear that even in a time-based sport like swimming the parent drama exists!

My kids do soccer and swim. I find soccer less stressful. The way they evaluate players is definitely more ambiguous, but my oldest seems to come out on the good side of that at least for now. He is a hard worker, unselfish, and really hustles on defense so I think that those things work in his favor as opposed to a kid with an ego always asking to play up front. And in a team sport there is at least some appreciation that they all have different roles to play and that they have to play as a team to succeed. Not too many politics yet, maybe we have been lucky.

The way summer swim is done here really does pit friends against each other, and certain parents egg it on. I get very annoyed when I hear my friend’s kid talking smack to mine and hearing their parents try to motivate them to specifically beat my kid in races. I tell my kids it’s about doing your own best times and however that plays out in the ladder is what it is. The A meet/B meet structure creates a haves vs. have nots dynamic that goes against the message that summer swim is for fun. And sending out the ladder is nice for transparency but bad for parents who obsess over everyone else’s times. I loved summer swim as a kid but as a parents it’s kind of a love/hate.

All the sports have ways they go about stratifying kids and playing favorites. The problem with team sports are you have to have scout teams/players. What I didn't like about soccer is they automatically decline penalties if there is no advantage for stopping play, and all of the coaches kids just happened to know where they could get away with nasty fouls. We had to sit and watch a former head coaches daughter play striker, but couldn't out run a turtle, game after game wide open path to the goal getting run down and tackled. In the end they just wanted to practice tackling on my daughter. Even though she scored a goal as striker in the two minutes she played it all season.

I agree about the B meets. If you don't make an A meet you're clearly getting less value out of the activity. In our team the A meet kids seldom go to team practices or talk to the other kids. Even when they do go to practices they have special lanes only year round swimmers can swim in. Coaches don't even respect speed my DD had a better time trial time but they skipped her in line for the A meets.

Save your money and get a pool membership. Just another day at the competitive spa.

Come on. Is this for real? special lanes only for year-round swimmers. Even among year-round swimmers, there's a diverse range of abilities.

You wouldn't believe it, but yeah. One year they had an assessment those were for the lanes where the kids "knew all the strokes", but as you mention there is a diverse range of abilities. So, I was told (I wasn't there the first day), they just said these are for year-round swimmers even the slow ones. They do subdivide the two lanes, slow year-round swimmers and fast year-round swimmers.

I don’t see how this is a problem. Why would you want lanes mixed with kids that know all the strokes and those that don’t? On our team we have a kid that used to do year round, dropped it for other things but still knows all the strokes, so she is in the lane with the slower year round swimmers. It’s an appropriate placement.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:On big teams a lot of younger kids could care less about A meets

Agree. When they are younger, there are just as many non-A kids as A kids. They all have a good time. It's about 13+ where the divide starts. The kids at A meets and all the adjacent extra meets spend hours and hours together. Of course they are a clique. The social dynamics of older kids also get more complicated. At our large higher division pool, most non-A meet teens just drop out.

I hazard to say older kids drop out of swim there are a multitude of reasons including other interests like other sports where there's a big summer season component (e.g., lacrosses, baseball), other camps. I don't know that i would pin the the reason why older kids drop out solely based on "oh, I'm not fast enough to swim in A meets".

Long time summer swim parent here. I don't know. The same names show up year after year for the A meet. You can watch them age through the team. If what you were saying was the main cause and it had zero to do with being in A meets, an equal proportion of the A kids would end up dropping out. Seems kind of notable that the A meet kids all stay and the B meet kids mostly drop out as teens.

It is what it is. It's a structure that creates 2 different experiences kids are having. What teenager is going to keep hanging around to spend a long evening at a B meet with a silly theme and go to some pep rallies. Most of them aren't. The B meet swimmers who stick around as teens on our team end up junior coaches. Which that makes sense to me. A paid job and leadership opportunity.

Do the same names appear at A meets year after year because those are the kids who do year round swim? While other kids do travel baseball, travel hockey, lacrosse, etc. Because that's what it seems like at our pool - and the older kids drop out because they're busy with other commitments rather than being disappointed in not going to B meets.

[Anonymous]

I’m at a top division team with a few very crowded age groups. One DC is in an age group where they have 9 or 10 year-round swimmers so the competition for A meets is pretty tough. Regardless, they are all buddies and root each other on. They also still pal around with the kids who have dropped out of club swim and still come for the summer shenanigans.

To my knowledge, the lanes are separated by speed not club status. The Team Reps are lovely and the crazy seems to be at a minimum.