Arlington proposing to close county gymnastics program

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Anonymous wrote:PP what you are demanding is the county work harder to subsidize your competitive gymnastics team. I mean cmon. I don’t want them spending their time doing that as a taxpayer.

DPR's time is compensated by the fees they earn from rec classes. If they aren't doing their job and they keep cutting offerings year over year, then revenue keeps dropping year over year, resulting in cuts year over year. This year it's gymnastics. Next year it could be swim or senior programs or teen programs. It's a downward spiral. There's no reason the gymnastics program can't be self-supporting and offer gymnastics to a wide range of kids and adults in Arlington.

Well they said there is a reason. they can’t hire qualified people to teach this activity safely and they said other activities they’ve been able to bounce back and hire people. They mentioned life guards.

I think a disconnect is perhaps their standards of who to hire don’t match what you all find acceptable. I guess it’s their gym and they should figure out what risk they can tolerate.

So if there aren't gymnastics coaches, why don't they hire cheer coaches or someone to teach ninja classes or fitness classes in the space? Why don't they offer open gyms with a higher gymnast to staff ratio? Why don't they offer more toddler and preschool classes that require a lower skill level for the coaches? Why don't they offer birthday parties or private lessons that have a much higher margin? All of these are things that other gyms do.

so that the competitive team can be subsidized. Just to be clear that this is what you are suggesting.

Not just the competitive team but also rec gymnastics and adaptive. Those are all caught up in the same outcome. The facility needs to be fully utilized.

They are not though really because the county can figure out other ways to provide these programs at much lower cost.

They cannot provide rec gymnastics without a facility. Nor can the other local facilities absorb those gymnasts. Dynamic has sent a letter saying they have huge waiting lists for their classes and YMCA is similarly full.

They do not need that extensive of a facility to offer basic recreational and adaptive gymastics classes. Topic well covered on this thread.

The facility is already there. Coming up with a different facility would cost money.

The county should not be providing gymnastics at the level it is currently. It is not appropriate and apparently not typical. They don’t need to come up with some other specific facility to offer basic gymnastics. As described by another poster, basic equipment can be brought out at existing rec centers.

Flip flopping makes no sense. The county invested to expand the facility in 2017. It makes no sense to abandon that investment now. DPR should stand by their investment and make use of the facility to benefit county residents.

Did you have this energy when they tore down the children’s school building to build Cardinal 10 years after they built it? Doubt it.

I don’t know. Things change. It’s 10 years later. The premise of if we built it or invested in it we can never change it is flawed.

The fundamentals haven't changed. There are 1300 kids on waitlists for DPR gymnastics classes at Barcroft, plus 1800 kids in rec classes. There is absolutely no capacity in the area for Arlington kids to do gymnastics elsewhere. That's why Barcroft was expanded. Read the DPR press announcement--it was done because of overwhelming community demand. That demand is being entirely ignored by DPR.

It’s not. They are saying they can’t find qualified instructors. You can accuse them of lying about this or being incompetent, which is what people here have done. You can suggest their standards of instruction are too high, which people here have done. What seems silly to say is they are ignoring the demand.

They are canceling rec classes to be sure the available coaches can be provided to the competitive team. So maybe jettisoning the competitive team will help with the waitlists.

Show me the DPR slide where they showed demand data and waitlist data? They didn't. Instead the presented a generic survey to argue that gymnastics was a low priority.

They also didn't present or answer questions about rec students on fee waivers who can't afford to go elsewhere.

What did I say that would require this data to back up the statement? I correctly said the DPR woman said they cancel rec classes to support the competitive team. Maybe she’s a bald faced liar.

In any case they aren’t saying there isn’t demand and waitlists. They are saying they are not able to meet the demand and explaining why. They are saying the inability to meet the demand means they can’t subsidize the competitive team. And they are saying this level of offering by a county is not common and maybe not something the county can afford anymore.

Why are people supposed to just accept it is their job to meet all demand and if they can’t they are losers and that’s the end of the story. My kid got shut out of rec volleyball this year. All this stuff has waitlists. I have tried in years but it used to be hard to get swim instruction classes. We live in an area that is like that.

DPR didn't say what they did to fill in when classes are canceled. The DPR lady said that when schools were closed they opened Long Bridge for family swim. When they can't offer rec classes because they're short coaches, they're not offering open gyms (which just need 1-2 staff to supervise). They aren't trying to cover costs. Prior to this announcement they never engaged the gymnastics community or asked for help or shared that there was even a problem. They haven't considered other class options, like cheer or ninja. That's the frustration. Arlington spent money to build this amenity to satisfy an overwhelming demand but DPR can't seem to be bothered to run the program.

Do they offer open gyms with all that equipment available and limited supervision? Or is that an idea?

I don’t agree with the basic premise that it is their job to figure out how to cover the costs for a competitive team. They should figure out what benefits the most people, make sure they are equally serving all demographics and meeting community needs which change over time, and attempt to run things efficiently.

Every gym in the area offers open gyms to fill vacant time. Usually 1-2 staff watch the gym to make sure everyone is behaving safely, so a lower gymnast to staff ratio. The attendees are primarily gymnasts who know how to behave. Super common.

Gyms will also offer parents nights out, snow day camps, school closure day camps, etc. Some staff for these have gymnastics knowledge, but they also have high schoolers or untrained staff to help.

This isnt about just the competitive team. They're also closing the facility for rec and adaptive use, and wasting the county investment in this facility. DPR needs to fill the gym to maximize its value to Arlington. If they can't do that with gymnastics regular classes, they should have been considering and offering other options.

Which brings us back to the liability issue. What is the insurance costs of Barcroft, and how do they differ from other facilities. What you are describing, using the gym in a variety of ways where you can have fewer or less experienced coaches overseeing the use, sounds frankly dangerous to me. If the facility had more basic equipment requiring specialized training to use, I would not be bothered by an open gym or parents night out program there, with high school students supervising. In a gym with regulation bars and beams, a tumble track, pro-level trampolines, etc.? This sounds risky.

The problem with Barcroft is that it was a built-to-suit facility designed for high level competitive gymnastics, which makes it LESS suitable for other uses that could be money makers or providing closer to full utilization of the facility. It's really obvious that a lower level gymnastics program with safer, more basic equipment would be a better long term investment for the county.

Also regarding the insurance issue -- a lot of people don't seem to realize that this is a major reason that there aren't more private gymnastics facilities. Insurance is a bear, as are facilities costs. The reason you don't see more such businesses in the area, despite a lot of interest in gymnastics, is that the business fundamentals don't make a lot of sense. Well if they don't make a ton of sense for a private gym, guess what, they also don't make a ton of sense for a county parks and rec program. Gymnastics is a dangerous niche sport, especially at the highest levels. DPR should focus on providing intro to gymnastics, basic tumbling, and other truly recreational level gymnastics focused on fitness, flexibility, strength, and fun. People who want to pursue competitive gymnastics (and its attendant risks) are welcome to pay for it themselves, if they can find a gym who can make the finances work.

This is a bunch of nonsense. If other gyms can make it work, it doesn't make any sense that it doesn't work for Barcroft. Other gyms absolutely offer cheer and ninja classes to fill time if they don't have enough gymnastics coaches. They absolutely offer open gyms. They absolutely offer snow day camps and parents night out programs. Barcroft is not some sort of super special facility that differs from all these other gyms. It's a normal gymnastics gym. It's not the Olympic training center with some sort of crazy equipment. It's not uber elite. It's just a gymnastics gym. Besides, many of these things were offered at Barcroft before covid. My kid went to open gyms at barcroft back in the day and they used to do birthday parties. There's not some super secret insurance reason why this can't be done. It's done absolutely done everywhere else and is entirely common.

Other gyms are paid for by student fees. Barcroft is paid for by tax dollars. Barcroft "works" because the county subsidizes it, and increasingly it appears they are subsidizing a program that primarily benefits a select group of high level competitive gymnasts (some of whom are not even county residents) while struggling to hire qualified coaches to staff the regular rec classes.

You also have no idea what is going on at other gyms. Gymnastics gyms go belly up all the time. Many operate with a lot of debt. Sustaining a gymnastic program to safe sport standards is incredibly expensive because gymnastics is an inherently dangerous sport that requires a lot of training to do (and to coach) safely.

We may just need to be realistic that this economy doesn't support gymnastics well as a sport. There's a reason it's so niche.

The whole point of this conversation is to have the gym supported by student fees. That's what the county wants. To do that DPR needs to offer programs that take in fees instead of leaving the gym sit empty while they continue to work on hiring more gymnastics coaches. They haven't been doing that.

How can they offer programming if they can't staff that programming? And stop with the suggestion of open gym and parents night out parties. You can't utilize a gym full time with those programs. Also demand for open gym is dependent on having a (staffed!) instructional program so that students can be signed off on skills and equipment that they can safely practice at an open gym without spotting. You can't have one without the other.

There's also no guarantee they will be able to hire more coaches. It's not a coaching job where you can just start a training program to get people in the pipeline for 6-12 months from now. Most gymnastics coaches have years of experience and, honestly, they should. We do not want kids on this equipment with people who don't have the kind of deep experience and skill that will enable them to keep kids safe. And there aren't enough of those available. Where will they find more?

The goal is to fill a budget gap not to fill the gym full time. DPR was complaining that they have unused time. But they haven't been trying to fill that time with alternatives. The only thing they've been looking for are gymnastics coaches with a particular level of experience. There's no reason those sprung floors couldn't be used for cheer classes with a cheer coach. And DPR has never put up a posting for a cheer coach to see if there's any availability.

It's also clear that you've never brought a gymnast to an open gym. There's no getting signed off on equipment and no spotting. That's not how it works. Stop posting about stuff that you know absolutely nothing about.

And there currently is an instructional program. It's just not as big as it should be.

I used to RUN an open gym program at a gymnastics gym. I know there's no spotting, I literally said the whole point is that students have to be able to perform skills safely without spotting at an open gym. Which is hard to do when you have an understaffed instructional program.

It is alarming that gymnasts are permitted to attend open gym without a formal sign off program for approval. Since they are working without spotting, it's important that only gymnasts who have proven ability to be on certain equipment and doing certain skills participate. That's how people get hurt.

Cheer is also super dangerous. How would use of the gym for cheer impact liability and insurance rates?

Please condescend to me some more. I love it.

We've been checking out lots of local facilities and trying open gyms. None of them have the kind of requirements you're suggesting. I don't know if your experience is from decades ago or from the middle of nowhere, but that's not how it's done in the DMV.

Do the open gyms you've checked out allow kids to use equipment like vault, uneven bars, and the high beam? Or just floor/mats/low beams and other equipment that is lower risk?

An open gym for prospective students is often run different than an open gym for current gymnasts. I've never worked at a gym that didn't have some method for keeping gymnasts off equipment they are not yet safe to train on indpendently. Especially at a gym with a big rec program as you always have eager kids who cannot WAIT to use the bars or vault and you have to be strict to keep them from doing something stupid.

Yes, they use vault, uneven bars and high beam at the open gyms. The gymnasts are supposed to use good judgement.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP what you are demanding is the county work harder to subsidize your competitive gymnastics team. I mean cmon. I don’t want them spending their time doing that as a taxpayer.

DPR's time is compensated by the fees they earn from rec classes. If they aren't doing their job and they keep cutting offerings year over year, then revenue keeps dropping year over year, resulting in cuts year over year. This year it's gymnastics. Next year it could be swim or senior programs or teen programs. It's a downward spiral. There's no reason the gymnastics program can't be self-supporting and offer gymnastics to a wide range of kids and adults in Arlington.

Well they said there is a reason. they can’t hire qualified people to teach this activity safely and they said other activities they’ve been able to bounce back and hire people. They mentioned life guards.

I think a disconnect is perhaps their standards of who to hire don’t match what you all find acceptable. I guess it’s their gym and they should figure out what risk they can tolerate.

So if there aren't gymnastics coaches, why don't they hire cheer coaches or someone to teach ninja classes or fitness classes in the space? Why don't they offer open gyms with a higher gymnast to staff ratio? Why don't they offer more toddler and preschool classes that require a lower skill level for the coaches? Why don't they offer birthday parties or private lessons that have a much higher margin? All of these are things that other gyms do.

so that the competitive team can be subsidized. Just to be clear that this is what you are suggesting.

Not just the competitive team but also rec gymnastics and adaptive. Those are all caught up in the same outcome. The facility needs to be fully utilized.

They are not though really because the county can figure out other ways to provide these programs at much lower cost.

They cannot provide rec gymnastics without a facility. Nor can the other local facilities absorb those gymnasts. Dynamic has sent a letter saying they have huge waiting lists for their classes and YMCA is similarly full.

They do not need that extensive of a facility to offer basic recreational and adaptive gymastics classes. Topic well covered on this thread.

The facility is already there. Coming up with a different facility would cost money.

The county should not be providing gymnastics at the level it is currently. It is not appropriate and apparently not typical. They don’t need to come up with some other specific facility to offer basic gymnastics. As described by another poster, basic equipment can be brought out at existing rec centers.

Flip flopping makes no sense. The county invested to expand the facility in 2017. It makes no sense to abandon that investment now. DPR should stand by their investment and make use of the facility to benefit county residents.

Did you have this energy when they tore down the children’s school building to build Cardinal 10 years after they built it? Doubt it.

I don’t know. Things change. It’s 10 years later. The premise of if we built it or invested in it we can never change it is flawed.

The fundamentals haven't changed. There are 1300 kids on waitlists for DPR gymnastics classes at Barcroft, plus 1800 kids in rec classes. There is absolutely no capacity in the area for Arlington kids to do gymnastics elsewhere. That's why Barcroft was expanded. Read the DPR press announcement--it was done because of overwhelming community demand. That demand is being entirely ignored by DPR.

It’s not. They are saying they can’t find qualified instructors. You can accuse them of lying about this or being incompetent, which is what people here have done. You can suggest their standards of instruction are too high, which people here have done. What seems silly to say is they are ignoring the demand.

They are canceling rec classes to be sure the available coaches can be provided to the competitive team. So maybe jettisoning the competitive team will help with the waitlists.

Show me the DPR slide where they showed demand data and waitlist data? They didn't. Instead the presented a generic survey to argue that gymnastics was a low priority.

They also didn't present or answer questions about rec students on fee waivers who can't afford to go elsewhere.

What did I say that would require this data to back up the statement? I correctly said the DPR woman said they cancel rec classes to support the competitive team. Maybe she’s a bald faced liar.

In any case they aren’t saying there isn’t demand and waitlists. They are saying they are not able to meet the demand and explaining why. They are saying the inability to meet the demand means they can’t subsidize the competitive team. And they are saying this level of offering by a county is not common and maybe not something the county can afford anymore.

Why are people supposed to just accept it is their job to meet all demand and if they can’t they are losers and that’s the end of the story. My kid got shut out of rec volleyball this year. All this stuff has waitlists. I have tried in years but it used to be hard to get swim instruction classes. We live in an area that is like that.

DPR didn't say what they did to fill in when classes are canceled. The DPR lady said that when schools were closed they opened Long Bridge for family swim. When they can't offer rec classes because they're short coaches, they're not offering open gyms (which just need 1-2 staff to supervise). They aren't trying to cover costs. Prior to this announcement they never engaged the gymnastics community or asked for help or shared that there was even a problem. They haven't considered other class options, like cheer or ninja. That's the frustration. Arlington spent money to build this amenity to satisfy an overwhelming demand but DPR can't seem to be bothered to run the program.

Do they offer open gyms with all that equipment available and limited supervision? Or is that an idea?

I don’t agree with the basic premise that it is their job to figure out how to cover the costs for a competitive team. They should figure out what benefits the most people, make sure they are equally serving all demographics and meeting community needs which change over time, and attempt to run things efficiently.

Every gym in the area offers open gyms to fill vacant time. Usually 1-2 staff watch the gym to make sure everyone is behaving safely, so a lower gymnast to staff ratio. The attendees are primarily gymnasts who know how to behave. Super common.

Gyms will also offer parents nights out, snow day camps, school closure day camps, etc. Some staff for these have gymnastics knowledge, but they also have high schoolers or untrained staff to help.

This isnt about just the competitive team. They're also closing the facility for rec and adaptive use, and wasting the county investment in this facility. DPR needs to fill the gym to maximize its value to Arlington. If they can't do that with gymnastics regular classes, they should have been considering and offering other options.

Which brings us back to the liability issue. What is the insurance costs of Barcroft, and how do they differ from other facilities. What you are describing, using the gym in a variety of ways where you can have fewer or less experienced coaches overseeing the use, sounds frankly dangerous to me. If the facility had more basic equipment requiring specialized training to use, I would not be bothered by an open gym or parents night out program there, with high school students supervising. In a gym with regulation bars and beams, a tumble track, pro-level trampolines, etc.? This sounds risky.

The problem with Barcroft is that it was a built-to-suit facility designed for high level competitive gymnastics, which makes it LESS suitable for other uses that could be money makers or providing closer to full utilization of the facility. It's really obvious that a lower level gymnastics program with safer, more basic equipment would be a better long term investment for the county.

Also regarding the insurance issue -- a lot of people don't seem to realize that this is a major reason that there aren't more private gymnastics facilities. Insurance is a bear, as are facilities costs. The reason you don't see more such businesses in the area, despite a lot of interest in gymnastics, is that the business fundamentals don't make a lot of sense. Well if they don't make a ton of sense for a private gym, guess what, they also don't make a ton of sense for a county parks and rec program. Gymnastics is a dangerous niche sport, especially at the highest levels. DPR should focus on providing intro to gymnastics, basic tumbling, and other truly recreational level gymnastics focused on fitness, flexibility, strength, and fun. People who want to pursue competitive gymnastics (and its attendant risks) are welcome to pay for it themselves, if they can find a gym who can make the finances work.

This is a bunch of nonsense. If other gyms can make it work, it doesn't make any sense that it doesn't work for Barcroft. Other gyms absolutely offer cheer and ninja classes to fill time if they don't have enough gymnastics coaches. They absolutely offer open gyms. They absolutely offer snow day camps and parents night out programs. Barcroft is not some sort of super special facility that differs from all these other gyms. It's a normal gymnastics gym. It's not the Olympic training center with some sort of crazy equipment. It's not uber elite. It's just a gymnastics gym. Besides, many of these things were offered at Barcroft before covid. My kid went to open gyms at barcroft back in the day and they used to do birthday parties. There's not some super secret insurance reason why this can't be done. It's done absolutely done everywhere else and is entirely common.

Other gyms are paid for by student fees. Barcroft is paid for by tax dollars. Barcroft "works" because the county subsidizes it, and increasingly it appears they are subsidizing a program that primarily benefits a select group of high level competitive gymnasts (some of whom are not even county residents) while struggling to hire qualified coaches to staff the regular rec classes.

You also have no idea what is going on at other gyms. Gymnastics gyms go belly up all the time. Many operate with a lot of debt. Sustaining a gymnastic program to safe sport standards is incredibly expensive because gymnastics is an inherently dangerous sport that requires a lot of training to do (and to coach) safely.

We may just need to be realistic that this economy doesn't support gymnastics well as a sport. There's a reason it's so niche.

The whole point of this conversation is to have the gym supported by student fees. That's what the county wants. To do that DPR needs to offer programs that take in fees instead of leaving the gym sit empty while they continue to work on hiring more gymnastics coaches. They haven't been doing that.

How can they offer programming if they can't staff that programming? And stop with the suggestion of open gym and parents night out parties. You can't utilize a gym full time with those programs. Also demand for open gym is dependent on having a (staffed!) instructional program so that students can be signed off on skills and equipment that they can safely practice at an open gym without spotting. You can't have one without the other.

There's also no guarantee they will be able to hire more coaches. It's not a coaching job where you can just start a training program to get people in the pipeline for 6-12 months from now. Most gymnastics coaches have years of experience and, honestly, they should. We do not want kids on this equipment with people who don't have the kind of deep experience and skill that will enable them to keep kids safe. And there aren't enough of those available. Where will they find more?

The goal is to fill a budget gap not to fill the gym full time. DPR was complaining that they have unused time. But they haven't been trying to fill that time with alternatives. The only thing they've been looking for are gymnastics coaches with a particular level of experience. There's no reason those sprung floors couldn't be used for cheer classes with a cheer coach. And DPR has never put up a posting for a cheer coach to see if there's any availability.

It's also clear that you've never brought a gymnast to an open gym. There's no getting signed off on equipment and no spotting. That's not how it works. Stop posting about stuff that you know absolutely nothing about.

And there currently is an instructional program. It's just not as big as it should be.

I used to RUN an open gym program at a gymnastics gym. I know there's no spotting, I literally said the whole point is that students have to be able to perform skills safely without spotting at an open gym. Which is hard to do when you have an understaffed instructional program.

It is alarming that gymnasts are permitted to attend open gym without a formal sign off program for approval. Since they are working without spotting, it's important that only gymnasts who have proven ability to be on certain equipment and doing certain skills participate. That's how people get hurt.

Cheer is also super dangerous. How would use of the gym for cheer impact liability and insurance rates?

Please condescend to me some more. I love it.

We've been checking out lots of local facilities and trying open gyms. None of them have the kind of requirements you're suggesting. I don't know if your experience is from decades ago or from the middle of nowhere, but that's not how it's done in the DMV.

Do the open gyms you've checked out allow kids to use equipment like vault, uneven bars, and the high beam? Or just floor/mats/low beams and other equipment that is lower risk?

An open gym for prospective students is often run different than an open gym for current gymnasts. I've never worked at a gym that didn't have some method for keeping gymnasts off equipment they are not yet safe to train on indpendently. Especially at a gym with a big rec program as you always have eager kids who cannot WAIT to use the bars or vault and you have to be strict to keep them from doing something stupid.

Yes, they use vault, uneven bars and high beam at the open gyms. The gymnasts are supposed to use good judgement.

The open gyms are open to all, whether or not you take classes at the gym. These are not for prospective students.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:PP what you are demanding is the county work harder to subsidize your competitive gymnastics team. I mean cmon. I don’t want them spending their time doing that as a taxpayer.

DPR's time is compensated by the fees they earn from rec classes. If they aren't doing their job and they keep cutting offerings year over year, then revenue keeps dropping year over year, resulting in cuts year over year. This year it's gymnastics. Next year it could be swim or senior programs or teen programs. It's a downward spiral. There's no reason the gymnastics program can't be self-supporting and offer gymnastics to a wide range of kids and adults in Arlington.

Well they said there is a reason. they can’t hire qualified people to teach this activity safely and they said other activities they’ve been able to bounce back and hire people. They mentioned life guards.

I think a disconnect is perhaps their standards of who to hire don’t match what you all find acceptable. I guess it’s their gym and they should figure out what risk they can tolerate.

So if there aren't gymnastics coaches, why don't they hire cheer coaches or someone to teach ninja classes or fitness classes in the space? Why don't they offer open gyms with a higher gymnast to staff ratio? Why don't they offer more toddler and preschool classes that require a lower skill level for the coaches? Why don't they offer birthday parties or private lessons that have a much higher margin? All of these are things that other gyms do.

so that the competitive team can be subsidized. Just to be clear that this is what you are suggesting.

Not just the competitive team but also rec gymnastics and adaptive. Those are all caught up in the same outcome. The facility needs to be fully utilized.

They are not though really because the county can figure out other ways to provide these programs at much lower cost.

They cannot provide rec gymnastics without a facility. Nor can the other local facilities absorb those gymnasts. Dynamic has sent a letter saying they have huge waiting lists for their classes and YMCA is similarly full.

They do not need that extensive of a facility to offer basic recreational and adaptive gymastics classes. Topic well covered on this thread.

The facility is already there. Coming up with a different facility would cost money.

The county should not be providing gymnastics at the level it is currently. It is not appropriate and apparently not typical. They don’t need to come up with some other specific facility to offer basic gymnastics. As described by another poster, basic equipment can be brought out at existing rec centers.

Flip flopping makes no sense. The county invested to expand the facility in 2017. It makes no sense to abandon that investment now. DPR should stand by their investment and make use of the facility to benefit county residents.

Did you have this energy when they tore down the children’s school building to build Cardinal 10 years after they built it? Doubt it.

I don’t know. Things change. It’s 10 years later. The premise of if we built it or invested in it we can never change it is flawed.

The fundamentals haven't changed. There are 1300 kids on waitlists for DPR gymnastics classes at Barcroft, plus 1800 kids in rec classes. There is absolutely no capacity in the area for Arlington kids to do gymnastics elsewhere. That's why Barcroft was expanded. Read the DPR press announcement--it was done because of overwhelming community demand. That demand is being entirely ignored by DPR.

It’s not. They are saying they can’t find qualified instructors. You can accuse them of lying about this or being incompetent, which is what people here have done. You can suggest their standards of instruction are too high, which people here have done. What seems silly to say is they are ignoring the demand.

They are canceling rec classes to be sure the available coaches can be provided to the competitive team. So maybe jettisoning the competitive team will help with the waitlists.

Show me the DPR slide where they showed demand data and waitlist data? They didn't. Instead the presented a generic survey to argue that gymnastics was a low priority.

They also didn't present or answer questions about rec students on fee waivers who can't afford to go elsewhere.

What did I say that would require this data to back up the statement? I correctly said the DPR woman said they cancel rec classes to support the competitive team. Maybe she’s a bald faced liar.

In any case they aren’t saying there isn’t demand and waitlists. They are saying they are not able to meet the demand and explaining why. They are saying the inability to meet the demand means they can’t subsidize the competitive team. And they are saying this level of offering by a county is not common and maybe not something the county can afford anymore.

Why are people supposed to just accept it is their job to meet all demand and if they can’t they are losers and that’s the end of the story. My kid got shut out of rec volleyball this year. All this stuff has waitlists. I have tried in years but it used to be hard to get swim instruction classes. We live in an area that is like that.

DPR didn't say what they did to fill in when classes are canceled. The DPR lady said that when schools were closed they opened Long Bridge for family swim. When they can't offer rec classes because they're short coaches, they're not offering open gyms (which just need 1-2 staff to supervise). They aren't trying to cover costs. Prior to this announcement they never engaged the gymnastics community or asked for help or shared that there was even a problem. They haven't considered other class options, like cheer or ninja. That's the frustration. Arlington spent money to build this amenity to satisfy an overwhelming demand but DPR can't seem to be bothered to run the program.

Do they offer open gyms with all that equipment available and limited supervision? Or is that an idea?

I don’t agree with the basic premise that it is their job to figure out how to cover the costs for a competitive team. They should figure out what benefits the most people, make sure they are equally serving all demographics and meeting community needs which change over time, and attempt to run things efficiently.

Every gym in the area offers open gyms to fill vacant time. Usually 1-2 staff watch the gym to make sure everyone is behaving safely, so a lower gymnast to staff ratio. The attendees are primarily gymnasts who know how to behave. Super common.

Gyms will also offer parents nights out, snow day camps, school closure day camps, etc. Some staff for these have gymnastics knowledge, but they also have high schoolers or untrained staff to help.

This isnt about just the competitive team. They're also closing the facility for rec and adaptive use, and wasting the county investment in this facility. DPR needs to fill the gym to maximize its value to Arlington. If they can't do that with gymnastics regular classes, they should have been considering and offering other options.

Which brings us back to the liability issue. What is the insurance costs of Barcroft, and how do they differ from other facilities. What you are describing, using the gym in a variety of ways where you can have fewer or less experienced coaches overseeing the use, sounds frankly dangerous to me. If the facility had more basic equipment requiring specialized training to use, I would not be bothered by an open gym or parents night out program there, with high school students supervising. In a gym with regulation bars and beams, a tumble track, pro-level trampolines, etc.? This sounds risky.

The problem with Barcroft is that it was a built-to-suit facility designed for high level competitive gymnastics, which makes it LESS suitable for other uses that could be money makers or providing closer to full utilization of the facility. It's really obvious that a lower level gymnastics program with safer, more basic equipment would be a better long term investment for the county.

Also regarding the insurance issue -- a lot of people don't seem to realize that this is a major reason that there aren't more private gymnastics facilities. Insurance is a bear, as are facilities costs. The reason you don't see more such businesses in the area, despite a lot of interest in gymnastics, is that the business fundamentals don't make a lot of sense. Well if they don't make a ton of sense for a private gym, guess what, they also don't make a ton of sense for a county parks and rec program. Gymnastics is a dangerous niche sport, especially at the highest levels. DPR should focus on providing intro to gymnastics, basic tumbling, and other truly recreational level gymnastics focused on fitness, flexibility, strength, and fun. People who want to pursue competitive gymnastics (and its attendant risks) are welcome to pay for it themselves, if they can find a gym who can make the finances work.

This is a bunch of nonsense. If other gyms can make it work, it doesn't make any sense that it doesn't work for Barcroft. Other gyms absolutely offer cheer and ninja classes to fill time if they don't have enough gymnastics coaches. They absolutely offer open gyms. They absolutely offer snow day camps and parents night out programs. Barcroft is not some sort of super special facility that differs from all these other gyms. It's a normal gymnastics gym. It's not the Olympic training center with some sort of crazy equipment. It's not uber elite. It's just a gymnastics gym. Besides, many of these things were offered at Barcroft before covid. My kid went to open gyms at barcroft back in the day and they used to do birthday parties. There's not some super secret insurance reason why this can't be done. It's done absolutely done everywhere else and is entirely common.

Other gyms are paid for by student fees. Barcroft is paid for by tax dollars. Barcroft "works" because the county subsidizes it, and increasingly it appears they are subsidizing a program that primarily benefits a select group of high level competitive gymnasts (some of whom are not even county residents) while struggling to hire qualified coaches to staff the regular rec classes.

You also have no idea what is going on at other gyms. Gymnastics gyms go belly up all the time. Many operate with a lot of debt. Sustaining a gymnastic program to safe sport standards is incredibly expensive because gymnastics is an inherently dangerous sport that requires a lot of training to do (and to coach) safely.

We may just need to be realistic that this economy doesn't support gymnastics well as a sport. There's a reason it's so niche.

The whole point of this conversation is to have the gym supported by student fees. That's what the county wants. To do that DPR needs to offer programs that take in fees instead of leaving the gym sit empty while they continue to work on hiring more gymnastics coaches. They haven't been doing that.

How can they offer programming if they can't staff that programming? And stop with the suggestion of open gym and parents night out parties. You can't utilize a gym full time with those programs. Also demand for open gym is dependent on having a (staffed!) instructional program so that students can be signed off on skills and equipment that they can safely practice at an open gym without spotting. You can't have one without the other.

There's also no guarantee they will be able to hire more coaches. It's not a coaching job where you can just start a training program to get people in the pipeline for 6-12 months from now. Most gymnastics coaches have years of experience and, honestly, they should. We do not want kids on this equipment with people who don't have the kind of deep experience and skill that will enable them to keep kids safe. And there aren't enough of those available. Where will they find more?

The goal is to fill a budget gap not to fill the gym full time. DPR was complaining that they have unused time. But they haven't been trying to fill that time with alternatives. The only thing they've been looking for are gymnastics coaches with a particular level of experience. There's no reason those sprung floors couldn't be used for cheer classes with a cheer coach. And DPR has never put up a posting for a cheer coach to see if there's any availability.

It's also clear that you've never brought a gymnast to an open gym. There's no getting signed off on equipment and no spotting. That's not how it works. Stop posting about stuff that you know absolutely nothing about.

And there currently is an instructional program. It's just not as big as it should be.

I used to RUN an open gym program at a gymnastics gym. I know there's no spotting, I literally said the whole point is that students have to be able to perform skills safely without spotting at an open gym. Which is hard to do when you have an understaffed instructional program.

It is alarming that gymnasts are permitted to attend open gym without a formal sign off program for approval. Since they are working without spotting, it's important that only gymnasts who have proven ability to be on certain equipment and doing certain skills participate. That's how people get hurt.

Cheer is also super dangerous. How would use of the gym for cheer impact liability and insurance rates?

Please condescend to me some more. I love it.

We've been checking out lots of local facilities and trying open gyms. None of them have the kind of requirements you're suggesting. I don't know if your experience is from decades ago or from the middle of nowhere, but that's not how it's done in the DMV.

Do the open gyms you've checked out allow kids to use equipment like vault, uneven bars, and the high beam? Or just floor/mats/low beams and other equipment that is lower risk?

An open gym for prospective students is often run different than an open gym for current gymnasts. I've never worked at a gym that didn't have some method for keeping gymnasts off equipment they are not yet safe to train on indpendently. Especially at a gym with a big rec program as you always have eager kids who cannot WAIT to use the bars or vault and you have to be strict to keep them from doing something stupid.

Open Gym - Dynamic https://share.google/zhzwtgkNqSDXNMmR3

Open Gym - Cardinal Gymnastics https://share.google/QmXyWwHO1OLcNBHjJ

Open Gym - Fairfax gymnastics
https://share.google/Wk8ciIRcdGZdiqhTS

Open to all. All events available.

[Anonymous]

Yeah we go to open gyms frequently..my kid does whatever he wants no one checks in with him but he does ask the coaches to spot him on newer skills (and I dont let him try anything he hasn't worked on yet)

[Anonymous]

I think it is insane you’re all dropping kids at open gyms and letting them do whatever on gymnastics equipment. That must be one hell of a waiver you sign.

[Anonymous]

Not every gym in the area has open gym for children. Some insurance restricts it heavily. Common sense should restrict it as well, but not my circus I guess. Maybe they are just lucky so far. I’m personally not in favor of open gym but I think the county could hire more staff to teach more instructor led gymnastics programs if they really wanted to.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think it is insane you’re all dropping kids at open gyms and letting them do whatever on gymnastics equipment. That must be one hell of a waiver you sign.

+1 this is actually kind of shocking to hear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not every gym in the area has open gym for children. Some insurance restricts it heavily. Common sense should restrict it as well, but not my circus I guess. Maybe they are just lucky so far. I’m personally not in favor of open gym but I think the county could hire more staff to teach more instructor led gymnastics programs if they really wanted to.

Staffing is the central problem. There are either not enough qualified coaches or they aren't paying them enough to make it worth their while. It's not that surprising -- so many industries have had this issue since Covid.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not every gym in the area has open gym for children. Some insurance restricts it heavily. Common sense should restrict it as well, but not my circus I guess. Maybe they are just lucky so far. I’m personally not in favor of open gym but I think the county could hire more staff to teach more instructor led gymnastics programs if they really wanted to.

I love all these opinions from folks who haven't been and observed. Lots of arm chair warriors making tons of wrong assumptions. They're not a circus and gymnasts are well behaved. Usually the staff mostly help to make sure the kids have the mats and equipment adjusted properly. I've never seen a behavior issue.

[Anonymous]

I was speaking to an insider tonight and there seem to be three major issues that aren't dependent on more coaches, namely:

There is more management than there used to be when the program was running 2x more rec classes. The program is now top heavy and those salaries are expensive.

DPR is leaving breaks between sessions when there used to be classes, so full time staff are getting paid for several weeks a year without teaching when there could be classes.

Even when working, full time coaches are being scheduled for fewer classes with lots of breaks.

Really, the person managing the gymnastics program and who was responsible the budget for the past few years just got a cushy new promotion in DPR a few months ago. There is a strong element of poor management and them saving himself here.

[Anonymous]

This program is nearly a million dollars in the red based on the budget reduction.

Seems likely it’s more complex than some open gyms will save the day and the coaches are taking breaks that are too long.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not every gym in the area has open gym for children. Some insurance restricts it heavily. Common sense should restrict it as well, but not my circus I guess. Maybe they are just lucky so far. I’m personally not in favor of open gym but I think the county could hire more staff to teach more instructor led gymnastics programs if they really wanted to.

I love all these opinions from folks who haven't been and observed. Lots of arm chair warriors making tons of wrong assumptions. They're not a circus and gymnasts are well behaved. Usually the staff mostly help to make sure the kids have the mats and equipment adjusted properly. I've never seen a behavior issue.

Is an open gym filled with some other type of children??? Why the assumption only “gymnasts” show up to these.

I’ve been to many birthday parties at Dynamic. The kids run around and act crazy. They are kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This program is nearly a million dollars in the red based on the budget reduction.

Seems likely it’s more complex than some open gyms will save the day and the coaches are taking breaks that are too long.

It's good that no one has proposed only those two things as a full solve. Whew.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Not every gym in the area has open gym for children. Some insurance restricts it heavily. Common sense should restrict it as well, but not my circus I guess. Maybe they are just lucky so far. I’m personally not in favor of open gym but I think the county could hire more staff to teach more instructor led gymnastics programs if they really wanted to.

I love all these opinions from folks who haven't been and observed. Lots of arm chair warriors making tons of wrong assumptions. They're not a circus and gymnasts are well behaved. Usually the staff mostly help to make sure the kids have the mats and equipment adjusted properly. I've never seen a behavior issue.

Is an open gym filled with some other type of children??? Why the assumption only “gymnasts” show up to these.

I’ve been to many birthday parties at Dynamic. The kids run around and act crazy. They are kids.

You're welcome to go stop in and observe.. There's one at Fairfax gym tomorrow from 12-1 PM.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:This program is nearly a million dollars in the red based on the budget reduction.

Seems likely it’s more complex than some open gyms will save the day and the coaches are taking breaks that are too long.

It's good that no one has proposed only those two things as a full solve. Whew.

The stuff people are proposing as a fix to salvage a program that should not have existed in the first place in this format and does not in other jurisdictions is just a stretch.

Rec gymnastics used to subsidize your team and even then no one was factoring in the cost of the facility or capital investments so you never covered your costs.

It’s time to move on and think creatively how to serve basic gymnastics needs for kids who want this. All that said, will the county cave to this group? Probably.