Outcomes - Prestige and Perceptions

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I was just thinking that this morning.

Seems like people should take into account the trickle down of good students. As the number of applicants to top schools has increased while the number of spots has remained constant, kids that in the past would have gotten into Ivies are now going one tier down. The second tier kids are now going third tier and on and on. There are plenty of smart kids at all of the top 100 schools so we need to rethink how we perceive certain schools.
Something that I remember hearing back when I was touring colleges - schools that are in good locations attract good professors. So even if you may think Northeastern isn't so great, Boston can attract good profs.

Agreed. For national universities, maybe something like this: tier 1 = top 10; tier 2 = 11-25ish. That said, placed in the context of 4000 colleges, anyone attending one of these colleges is attending an elite institution. The notion that smart kids are only at Ivies is nonsense.

Or, you could start by realizing that there is no such thing as tiers. There are lots of great schools that are filled with more than any kid could possibly learn. Find one you like and can afford. That is all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The other way around is probably William and Mary in Virginia. The school has seen falling applications, drops in rankings, etc. but is still perceived as very prestigious by older individuals.

Miami of Ohio and University of Vermont followed the same trajectory, only a generation earlier. At some point time catches up and colleges can't rely on historic perceptions to recruit students when they have nothing else to show for it.

Incorrect. From 2004-2005 to 2020-2021, William and Mary had an 81% increase in applications with increases in applications in 14 of the 16 years. This year had a 23% increase in applications.

You are correct that William and Mary has had some decline in the USNWR national university ranking, where it went from 31 to 39 from 2004 to 2020, but it isn't alone. UVA went from 21 to 26th during the same period. USNWR is somewhat problematic for William and Mary because some of the ratings like financial resources are positively influenced by having medical schools and engineering schools, which William and Mary does not have, unlike almost all of the schools above it in the rankings. It has, however, remained close to the top and is currently 4th in quality of undergraduate teaching.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other way around is probably William and Mary in Virginia. The school has seen falling applications, drops in rankings, etc. but is still perceived as very prestigious by older individuals.

Miami of Ohio and University of Vermont followed the same trajectory, only a generation earlier. At some point time catches up and colleges can't rely on historic perceptions to recruit students when they have nothing else to show for it.

Incorrect. From 2004-2005 to 2020-2021, William and Mary had an 81% increase in applications with increases in applications in 14 of the 16 years. This year had a 23% increase in applications.

You are correct that William and Mary has had some decline in the USNWR national university ranking, where it went from 31 to 39 from 2004 to 2020, but it isn't alone. UVA went from 21 to 26th during the same period. USNWR is somewhat problematic for William and Mary because some of the ratings like financial resources are positively influenced by having medical schools and engineering schools, which William and Mary does not have, unlike almost all of the schools above it in the rankings. It has, however, remained close to the top and is currently 4th in quality of undergraduate teaching.

It not having an engineering school and medical school counts against it in the ranking, but it does so in reality as well, so you are only just supporting my argument.

This is the 21st century when healthcare and technology sectors are the driving forces of the economy.
Schools like MIT and Stanford have become as renowned as Harvard and perhaps surpassed Princeton & Yale due to their strengths in engineering and sciences.

Miami of Ohio is another school that doesn't have a medical or engineering school. It's also ranked very highly in the "undergraduate teaching" list. That's a bit meaningless in terms of prestige though. Looks like W&M is facing the same issue.

UVA dropped in the same period, it's also weak in engineering and sciences. Again, just adding to my point.

Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan and Georgia Tech have either stayed the same, or increased. Same for UT-Austin.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other way around is probably William and Mary in Virginia. The school has seen falling applications, drops in rankings, etc. but is still perceived as very prestigious by older individuals.

Miami of Ohio and University of Vermont followed the same trajectory, only a generation earlier. At some point time catches up and colleges can't rely on historic perceptions to recruit students when they have nothing else to show for it.

Incorrect. From 2004-2005 to 2020-2021, William and Mary had an 81% increase in applications with increases in applications in 14 of the 16 years. This year had a 23% increase in applications.

You are correct that William and Mary has had some decline in the USNWR national university ranking, where it went from 31 to 39 from 2004 to 2020, but it isn't alone. UVA went from 21 to 26th during the same period. USNWR is somewhat problematic for William and Mary because some of the ratings like financial resources are positively influenced by having medical schools and engineering schools, which William and Mary does not have, unlike almost all of the schools above it in the rankings. It has, however, remained close to the top and is currently 4th in quality of undergraduate teaching.

It not having an engineering school and medical school counts against it in the ranking, but it does so in reality as well, so you are only just supporting my argument.

This is the 21st century when healthcare and technology sectors are the driving forces of the economy.
Schools like MIT and Stanford have become as renowned as Harvard and perhaps surpassed Princeton & Yale due to their strengths in engineering and sciences.

Miami of Ohio is another school that doesn't have a medical or engineering school. It's also ranked very highly in the "undergraduate teaching" list. That's a bit meaningless in terms of prestige though. Looks like W&M is facing the same issue.

UVA dropped in the same period, it's also weak in engineering and sciences. Again, just adding to my point.

Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan and Georgia Tech have either stayed the same, or increased. Same for UT-Austin.

Miami has an engineering school:

https://miamioh.edu/cec/

[Anonymous]

The William and Mary in-state cost of attendance is really high at ~40,000 bucks and gets even more expensive for Mason business.

[Anonymous]

OP: a lot of the bashing of schools 10ish to 30ish reflects a lack of perceived value/ability to pay or anger at limited seats at great public universities. The hating reflects the human defense mechanism of destroying what you want but can’t have.

For privates, the cost is equivalent to HPYSM, but the prestige is not. Thus, though the schools are excellent, there is the criticism that you’ve over paid, unless you’ve received a ton of financial aid. This leads to the negative stereotype that these schools are for rich kids who can’t get admitted to HYPSM. Though this stereotype carries some truth, it misses that the schools ARE excellent and the kids ARE TOO. Should one apologize for being the 97th, 98th, 99th, 99.5 percentile instead of the 99.9 percentile? Of course not. But, the negative stereotype allows those who get rejected or don’t qualify to destroy what they can’t have. Of course, the stereotype doesn’t apply to HPYSM because they are the standard for exceptional education.

For the publics, they are not quite HPYSM, but they are awesome instate values. Here, the anger becomes the lack of seats. Naysayers roll out the line, “I pay taxes. My kid should get a seat.” However, these people never seem to realize that it is the school’s selectivity is part of what makes it great, and that not many of their tax dollars go to the institution. Again, they fight their frustration by degrading what they can’t have.

In some ways, it reflects society’s increasingly clamorous debate about wealth, privilege, meritocracy, social justice, etc. today’s communication channels have laid bare the lifestyles of the rich and famous and now everyone wants part of the pie. Also, it just seems easier to get a piece of the pie, so everyone is trying to grab it. Why not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other way around is probably William and Mary in Virginia. The school has seen falling applications, drops in rankings, etc. but is still perceived as very prestigious by older individuals.

Miami of Ohio and University of Vermont followed the same trajectory, only a generation earlier. At some point time catches up and colleges can't rely on historic perceptions to recruit students when they have nothing else to show for it.

Incorrect. From 2004-2005 to 2020-2021, William and Mary had an 81% increase in applications with increases in applications in 14 of the 16 years. This year had a 23% increase in applications.

You are correct that William and Mary has had some decline in the USNWR national university ranking, where it went from 31 to 39 from 2004 to 2020, but it isn't alone. UVA went from 21 to 26th during the same period. USNWR is somewhat problematic for William and Mary because some of the ratings like financial resources are positively influenced by having medical schools and engineering schools, which William and Mary does not have, unlike almost all of the schools above it in the rankings. It has, however, remained close to the top and is currently 4th in quality of undergraduate teaching.

It not having an engineering school and medical school counts against it in the ranking, but it does so in reality as well, so you are only just supporting my argument.

This is the 21st century when healthcare and technology sectors are the driving forces of the economy.
Schools like MIT and Stanford have become as renowned as Harvard and perhaps surpassed Princeton & Yale due to their strengths in engineering and sciences.

Miami of Ohio is another school that doesn't have a medical or engineering school. It's also ranked very highly in the "undergraduate teaching" list. That's a bit meaningless in terms of prestige though. Looks like W&M is facing the same issue.

UVA dropped in the same period, it's also weak in engineering and sciences. Again, just adding to my point.

Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan and Georgia Tech have either stayed the same, or increased. Same for UT-Austin.

You can argue all you want that I supported your point, but when you start with the completely erroneous claim that applications have declined when in fact they have risen for 14 of the last 16 years and rose 23% this year, you have clearly undermined yourself and any subsequent claims you make. You need to own your mistakes and misstatement rather than trying to deflect.

You don't get any facts straight before you post. You say Miami of Ohio doesn't have an engineering school. That is wrong. You suggest Miami of Ohio and the University of Vermont were highly ranked (by US News) but they never were. They appeared in a book called The Public Ivies from the 1980s, but that was really just the view of one person and was never reflected in US News.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other way around is probably William and Mary in Virginia. The school has seen falling applications, drops in rankings, etc. but is still perceived as very prestigious by older individuals.

Miami of Ohio and University of Vermont followed the same trajectory, only a generation earlier. At some point time catches up and colleges can't rely on historic perceptions to recruit students when they have nothing else to show for it.

Incorrect. From 2004-2005 to 2020-2021, William and Mary had an 81% increase in applications with increases in applications in 14 of the 16 years. This year had a 23% increase in applications.

You are correct that William and Mary has had some decline in the USNWR national university ranking, where it went from 31 to 39 from 2004 to 2020, but it isn't alone. UVA went from 21 to 26th during the same period. USNWR is somewhat problematic for William and Mary because some of the ratings like financial resources are positively influenced by having medical schools and engineering schools, which William and Mary does not have, unlike almost all of the schools above it in the rankings. It has, however, remained close to the top and is currently 4th in quality of undergraduate teaching.

It not having an engineering school and medical school counts against it in the ranking, but it does so in reality as well, so you are only just supporting my argument.

This is the 21st century when healthcare and technology sectors are the driving forces of the economy.
Schools like MIT and Stanford have become as renowned as Harvard and perhaps surpassed Princeton & Yale due to their strengths in engineering and sciences.

Miami of Ohio is another school that doesn't have a medical or engineering school. It's also ranked very highly in the "undergraduate teaching" list. That's a bit meaningless in terms of prestige though. Looks like W&M is facing the same issue.

UVA dropped in the same period, it's also weak in engineering and sciences. Again, just adding to my point.

Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan and Georgia Tech have either stayed the same, or increased. Same for UT-Austin.

You can argue all you want that I supported your point, but when you start with the completely erroneous claim that applications have declined when in fact they have risen for 14 of the last 16 years and rose 23% this year, you have clearly undermined yourself and any subsequent claims you make. You need to own your mistakes and misstatement rather than trying to deflect.

You don't get any facts straight before you post. You say Miami of Ohio doesn't have an engineering school. That is wrong. You suggest Miami of Ohio and the University of Vermont were highly ranked (by US News) but they never were. They appeared in a book called The Public Ivies from the 1980s, but that was really just the view of one person and was never reflected in US News.

I never stated that Miami of Ohio or University of Vermont were ranked highly by US News. I said it was held in high regard in the past, and has since fallen off and lost its luster. Pretty sure USNews did not even do rankings in the 1980s.

That you are referencing a highly referred to book regarding "Public Ivies", which many universities still today use in their advertising material, only further helps my point about how Miami of Ohio and UVM were held in high regard once. As you yourself pointed out, USNews ranks both Miami and UVM rather low today, nowhere close to their supposed "Public Ivy" peers. Older generations will still consider Miami a prestigious school but middle-aged individuals today don't.

W&M is going through the same generational change. Middle-aged adults today consider it to be a prestigious school. It's falling out of popularity rapidly with younger adults. When those young adults become middle-aged, they will not view it as a prestigious school. Of course, the middle-aged adults that are then seniors still might, but they will be retired and will have no influence in the job market.

That is, of course, if W&M continues on its current trajectory. But the future outlook for small, public liberal arts colleges isn't very good. It may as well privatize, or pseudo-privatize as UVA has.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Pretty sure USNews did not even do rankings in the 1980s.

All this time to write a TL;DR-esque post, and you coudn't even take 20 seconds for a quick Google search?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._News_%26_World_Report_Best_Colleges_Ranking

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I was just thinking that this morning.

Seems like people should take into account the trickle down of good students. As the number of applicants to top schools has increased while the number of spots has remained constant, kids that in the past would have gotten into Ivies are now going one tier down. The second tier kids are now going third tier and on and on. There are plenty of smart kids at all of the top 100 schools so we need to rethink how we perceive certain schools.
Something that I remember hearing back when I was touring colleges - schools that are in good locations attract good professors. So even if you may think Northeastern isn't so great, Boston can attract good profs.

Agreed. For national universities, maybe something like this: tier 1 = top 10; tier 2 = 11-25ish. That said, placed in the context of 4000 colleges, anyone attending one of these colleges is attending an elite institution. The notion that smart kids are only at Ivies is nonsense.

The top 25 schools being tier 2 is laughable and tone-deaf. But either way, some of you don't seem to remember there are 3 ivy league schools in the 11-25 section. But some of you would still rate schools like Vandy and Gtown lower than Cornell just because Cornell is an ivy, it's hypocritical.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other way around is probably William and Mary in Virginia. The school has seen falling applications, drops in rankings, etc. but is still perceived as very prestigious by older individuals.

Miami of Ohio and University of Vermont followed the same trajectory, only a generation earlier. At some point time catches up and colleges can't rely on historic perceptions to recruit students when they have nothing else to show for it.

Incorrect. From 2004-2005 to 2020-2021, William and Mary had an 81% increase in applications with increases in applications in 14 of the 16 years. This year had a 23% increase in applications.

You are correct that William and Mary has had some decline in the USNWR national university ranking, where it went from 31 to 39 from 2004 to 2020, but it isn't alone. UVA went from 21 to 26th during the same period. USNWR is somewhat problematic for William and Mary because some of the ratings like financial resources are positively influenced by having medical schools and engineering schools, which William and Mary does not have, unlike almost all of the schools above it in the rankings. It has, however, remained close to the top and is currently 4th in quality of undergraduate teaching.

It not having an engineering school and medical school counts against it in the ranking, but it does so in reality as well, so you are only just supporting my argument.

This is the 21st century when healthcare and technology sectors are the driving forces of the economy.
Schools like MIT and Stanford have become as renowned as Harvard and perhaps surpassed Princeton & Yale due to their strengths in engineering and sciences.

Miami of Ohio is another school that doesn't have a medical or engineering school. It's also ranked very highly in the "undergraduate teaching" list. That's a bit meaningless in terms of prestige though. Looks like W&M is facing the same issue.

UVA dropped in the same period, it's also weak in engineering and sciences. Again, just adding to my point.

Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan and Georgia Tech have either stayed the same, or increased. Same for UT-Austin.

You can argue all you want that I supported your point, but when you start with the completely erroneous claim that applications have declined when in fact they have risen for 14 of the last 16 years and rose 23% this year, you have clearly undermined yourself and any subsequent claims you make. You need to own your mistakes and misstatement rather than trying to deflect.

You don't get any facts straight before you post. You say Miami of Ohio doesn't have an engineering school. That is wrong. You suggest Miami of Ohio and the University of Vermont were highly ranked (by US News) but they never were. They appeared in a book called The Public Ivies from the 1980s, but that was really just the view of one person and was never reflected in US News.

I never stated that Miami of Ohio or University of Vermont were ranked highly by US News. I said it was held in high regard in the past, and has since fallen off and lost its luster. Pretty sure USNews did not even do rankings in the 1980s.

That you are referencing a highly referred to book regarding "Public Ivies", which many universities still today use in their advertising material, only further helps my point about how Miami of Ohio and UVM were held in high regard once. As you yourself pointed out, USNews ranks both Miami and UVM rather low today, nowhere close to their supposed "Public Ivy" peers. Older generations will still consider Miami a prestigious school but middle-aged individuals today don't.

W&M is going through the same generational change. Middle-aged adults today consider it to be a prestigious school. It's falling out of popularity rapidly with younger adults. When those young adults become middle-aged, they will not view it as a prestigious school. Of course, the middle-aged adults that are then seniors still might, but they will be retired and will have no influence in the job market.

That is, of course, if W&M continues on its current trajectory. But the future outlook for small, public liberal arts colleges isn't very good. It may as well privatize, or pseudo-privatize as UVA has.

As someone else pointed out, you started your long post with yet another factual error. US News did start rankings in the 1980s, and it started a couple of years before the publishing of Public Ivies book. Public Ivies represented the opinion of one man on schools that he thought might provide an Ivy-like experience. It was not a consensus view on prestige. US News did not rank Miami of Ohio and UVM that high at any time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I was just thinking that this morning.

Seems like people should take into account the trickle down of good students. As the number of applicants to top schools has increased while the number of spots has remained constant, kids that in the past would have gotten into Ivies are now going one tier down. The second tier kids are now going third tier and on and on. There are plenty of smart kids at all of the top 100 schools so we need to rethink how we perceive certain schools.
Something that I remember hearing back when I was touring colleges - schools that are in good locations attract good professors. So even if you may think Northeastern isn't so great, Boston can attract good profs.

Agreed. For national universities, maybe something like this: tier 1 = top 10; tier 2 = 11-25ish. That said, placed in the context of 4000 colleges, anyone attending one of these colleges is attending an elite institution. The notion that smart kids are only at Ivies is nonsense.

The top 25 schools being tier 2 is laughable and tone-deaf. But either way, some of you don't seem to remember there are 3 ivy league schools in the 11-25 section. But some of you would still rate schools like Vandy and Gtown lower than Cornell just because Cornell is an ivy, it's hypocritical.

NP here. As a Georgetown alum I rate Vandy and Georgetown below Cornell because that is where every single ranking (including US NEWS) puts those universities when comparing universities on a global basis.

https://www.topuniversities.com/university-ranking...world-university-rankings/2021
(Cornell #19, Vanderbilt #187, Georgetown #230)

https://www.timeshighereducation.com/world-univers...ank/sort_order/asc/cols/stats.
(Cornell #19, Vanderbilt #111, Georgetown #120))

Even USNEWS has Cornell at #22 globally, while dropping Vanderbilt to #72 and Georgetown to #322
https://www.usnews.com/education/best-global-universities/rankings

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other way around is probably William and Mary in Virginia. The school has seen falling applications, drops in rankings, etc. but is still perceived as very prestigious by older individuals.

Miami of Ohio and University of Vermont followed the same trajectory, only a generation earlier. At some point time catches up and colleges can't rely on historic perceptions to recruit students when they have nothing else to show for it.

Incorrect. From 2004-2005 to 2020-2021, William and Mary had an 81% increase in applications with increases in applications in 14 of the 16 years. This year had a 23% increase in applications.

You are correct that William and Mary has had some decline in the USNWR national university ranking, where it went from 31 to 39 from 2004 to 2020, but it isn't alone. UVA went from 21 to 26th during the same period. USNWR is somewhat problematic for William and Mary because some of the ratings like financial resources are positively influenced by having medical schools and engineering schools, which William and Mary does not have, unlike almost all of the schools above it in the rankings. It has, however, remained close to the top and is currently 4th in quality of undergraduate teaching.

It not having an engineering school and medical school counts against it in the ranking, but it does so in reality as well, so you are only just supporting my argument.

This is the 21st century when healthcare and technology sectors are the driving forces of the economy.
Schools like MIT and Stanford have become as renowned as Harvard and perhaps surpassed Princeton & Yale due to their strengths in engineering and sciences.

Miami of Ohio is another school that doesn't have a medical or engineering school. It's also ranked very highly in the "undergraduate teaching" list. That's a bit meaningless in terms of prestige though. Looks like W&M is facing the same issue.

UVA dropped in the same period, it's also weak in engineering and sciences. Again, just adding to my point.

Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan and Georgia Tech have either stayed the same, or increased. Same for UT-Austin.

You can argue all you want that I supported your point, but when you start with the completely erroneous claim that applications have declined when in fact they have risen for 14 of the last 16 years and rose 23% this year, you have clearly undermined yourself and any subsequent claims you make. You need to own your mistakes and misstatement rather than trying to deflect.

You don't get any facts straight before you post. You say Miami of Ohio doesn't have an engineering school. That is wrong. You suggest Miami of Ohio and the University of Vermont were highly ranked (by US News) but they never were. They appeared in a book called The Public Ivies from the 1980s, but that was really just the view of one person and was never reflected in US News.

I never stated that Miami of Ohio or University of Vermont were ranked highly by US News. I said it was held in high regard in the past, and has since fallen off and lost its luster. Pretty sure USNews did not even do rankings in the 1980s.

That you are referencing a highly referred to book regarding "Public Ivies", which many universities still today use in their advertising material, only further helps my point about how Miami of Ohio and UVM were held in high regard once. As you yourself pointed out, USNews ranks both Miami and UVM rather low today, nowhere close to their supposed "Public Ivy" peers. Older generations will still consider Miami a prestigious school but middle-aged individuals today don't.

W&M is going through the same generational change. Middle-aged adults today consider it to be a prestigious school. It's falling out of popularity rapidly with younger adults. When those young adults become middle-aged, they will not view it as a prestigious school. Of course, the middle-aged adults that are then seniors still might, but they will be retired and will have no influence in the job market.

That is, of course, if W&M continues on its current trajectory. But the future outlook for small, public liberal arts colleges isn't very good. It may as well privatize, or pseudo-privatize as UVA has.

As someone else pointed out, you started your long post with yet another factual error. US News did start rankings in the 1980s, and it started a couple of years before the publishing of Public Ivies book. Public Ivies represented the opinion of one man on schools that he thought might provide an Ivy-like experience. It was not a consensus view on prestige. US News did not rank Miami of Ohio and UVM that high at any time.

Why don't you state where UVM and Miami were ranked in the 1980s by USNews then? Go ahead and post your holy grail USNews ranking of Miami and UVM from the 1980s, and we'll see which college has declined massively and which hasn't.

Of course you won't, because USNews ranked Miami and UVM much higher than they are ranked today - today they are ranked 100+.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP, I was just thinking that this morning.

Seems like people should take into account the trickle down of good students. As the number of applicants to top schools has increased while the number of spots has remained constant, kids that in the past would have gotten into Ivies are now going one tier down. The second tier kids are now going third tier and on and on. There are plenty of smart kids at all of the top 100 schools so we need to rethink how we perceive certain schools.
Something that I remember hearing back when I was touring colleges - schools that are in good locations attract good professors. So even if you may think Northeastern isn't so great, Boston can attract good profs.

Agreed. For national universities, maybe something like this: tier 1 = top 10; tier 2 = 11-25ish. That said, placed in the context of 4000 colleges, anyone attending one of these colleges is attending an elite institution. The notion that smart kids are only at Ivies is nonsense.

The top 25 schools being tier 2 is laughable and tone-deaf. But either way, some of you don't seem to remember there are 3 ivy league schools in the 11-25 section. But some of you would still rate schools like Vandy and Gtown lower than Cornell just because Cornell is an ivy, it's hypocritical.

Cornell is a full-fledged research university that is internationally recognized in engineering, and yes it being an Ivy helps perceptions.

Georgetown and Vanderbilt, while being research universities, don't particularly excel in anything. Georgetown excels in foreign service, but that's more pre-professional than academic research.

Splitting hairs between these schools is meaningless though. Cornell is obviously stronger in engineering and natural sciences, and Georgetown is obviously stronger in foreign affairs. Given they are both strong schools, it makes sense to judge by the department/location/size etc. given the choice.

I don't know much about Vanderbilt.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The other way around is probably William and Mary in Virginia. The school has seen falling applications, drops in rankings, etc. but is still perceived as very prestigious by older individuals.

Miami of Ohio and University of Vermont followed the same trajectory, only a generation earlier. At some point time catches up and colleges can't rely on historic perceptions to recruit students when they have nothing else to show for it.

Incorrect. From 2004-2005 to 2020-2021, William and Mary had an 81% increase in applications with increases in applications in 14 of the 16 years. This year had a 23% increase in applications.

You are correct that William and Mary has had some decline in the USNWR national university ranking, where it went from 31 to 39 from 2004 to 2020, but it isn't alone. UVA went from 21 to 26th during the same period. USNWR is somewhat problematic for William and Mary because some of the ratings like financial resources are positively influenced by having medical schools and engineering schools, which William and Mary does not have, unlike almost all of the schools above it in the rankings. It has, however, remained close to the top and is currently 4th in quality of undergraduate teaching.

It not having an engineering school and medical school counts against it in the ranking, but it does so in reality as well, so you are only just supporting my argument.

This is the 21st century when healthcare and technology sectors are the driving forces of the economy.
Schools like MIT and Stanford have become as renowned as Harvard and perhaps surpassed Princeton & Yale due to their strengths in engineering and sciences.

Miami of Ohio is another school that doesn't have a medical or engineering school. It's also ranked very highly in the "undergraduate teaching" list. That's a bit meaningless in terms of prestige though. Looks like W&M is facing the same issue.

UVA dropped in the same period, it's also weak in engineering and sciences. Again, just adding to my point.

Berkeley, UCLA, Michigan and Georgia Tech have either stayed the same, or increased. Same for UT-Austin.

You can argue all you want that I supported your point, but when you start with the completely erroneous claim that applications have declined when in fact they have risen for 14 of the last 16 years and rose 23% this year, you have clearly undermined yourself and any subsequent claims you make. You need to own your mistakes and misstatement rather than trying to deflect.

You don't get any facts straight before you post. You say Miami of Ohio doesn't have an engineering school. That is wrong. You suggest Miami of Ohio and the University of Vermont were highly ranked (by US News) but they never were. They appeared in a book called The Public Ivies from the 1980s, but that was really just the view of one person and was never reflected in US News.

I never stated that Miami of Ohio or University of Vermont were ranked highly by US News. I said it was held in high regard in the past, and has since fallen off and lost its luster. Pretty sure USNews did not even do rankings in the 1980s.

That you are referencing a highly referred to book regarding "Public Ivies", which many universities still today use in their advertising material, only further helps my point about how Miami of Ohio and UVM were held in high regard once. As you yourself pointed out, USNews ranks both Miami and UVM rather low today, nowhere close to their supposed "Public Ivy" peers. Older generations will still consider Miami a prestigious school but middle-aged individuals today don't.

W&M is going through the same generational change. Middle-aged adults today consider it to be a prestigious school. It's falling out of popularity rapidly with younger adults. When those young adults become middle-aged, they will not view it as a prestigious school. Of course, the middle-aged adults that are then seniors still might, but they will be retired and will have no influence in the job market.

That is, of course, if W&M continues on its current trajectory. But the future outlook for small, public liberal arts colleges isn't very good. It may as well privatize, or pseudo-privatize as UVA has.

As someone else pointed out, you started your long post with yet another factual error. US News did start rankings in the 1980s, and it started a couple of years before the publishing of Public Ivies book. Public Ivies represented the opinion of one man on schools that he thought might provide an Ivy-like experience. It was not a consensus view on prestige. US News did not rank Miami of Ohio and UVM that high at any time.

Why don't you state where UVM and Miami were ranked in the 1980s by USNews then? Go ahead and post your holy grail USNews ranking of Miami and UVM from the 1980s, and we'll see which college has declined massively and which hasn't.

Of course you won't, because USNews ranked Miami and UVM much higher than they are ranked today - today they are ranked 100+.

I only have the data for colleges that have made the top 50 (and they didn't go that deep in early years)

Miami was #46 as recently as 2018 and is #49 today.

I don't have any data showing UVM as ever top 50. Can you provide?

The colleges that have fallen the most from 1984 are UIUC from #8 to 50+, then back to mid-40s. UMich has been as high as #7. MIT has been as low as #11. GW, WPI, Syracuse, Rutgers and Texas A&M have all been in the top 50 at one time or another.

What's my point?

Ranking are wack to the point of meaninglessness.