Renovation cost- too high or about right

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It would be cheaper to tear down and build a new house. Truly, the scope of work you're doing makes absolutely no sense. Yes, they price is high, but you're basically asking for a new house within the limits of your current footprint - which is harder to do than just building from scratch an floorplan that works! So it's not THAT high, but you should've gotten an itemized breakdown.

why do you think it is cheaper? Do you know the quote for the new house? I can tell you, it starts from 800K 4 bedroom/ 4 bathroom one car garage, 3600 finished space (counting the finished bashment)

It is definitely cheaper. She owns the land.

OP knocking the whole thing down is a way cheaper way to go.

What you are asking of the contractor is way harder hence costs more.

Plus in Covid you are paying top dollar for materials and workers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP:
I'm going to tell you my experience and suggest maybe you take a path more similar to mine rather than taking your house down to the studs.

I bought a house in DC as well. And we have touched every single surface in the house over the years. Total, we've probably put 120K in. While we have had some electrical work done, we haven't had that system pulled out and put back in.

We did our changes piece by piece, but I'm going to list what we would have done if we had done the same thing, all at once starting from the beginning with prices we paid. Only a small amount of our work was done during COVID, and lots of it was done many years ago, so you will, obviously pay higher prices. In some cases much higher.

You'll pay much less if you keep the same footprint. Which, if it's a DC rowhouse, you should really do (with the exception of possibly taking out the wall between the kitchen and the dining room. If it's a row house, that wall is not structural in most cases so you don't need an engineer.

To save money, you'll be your own general contractor.

Have design plans drawn up for the kitchen and bathrooms if you need it. I designed my own and didn't actually change the layout of any of the above (rowhouses seldom allow for a total re-do of the layout unless you're putting a bathroom in the third tiny bedroom of a rowhouse.) But you can pay for them to be re-designed if you'd like. They will tell you if you need to move wires or pipes.

First, I would take out the kitchen and kitchen wall if you're going to do that. To take that out and have the debris cleared away, you'll pay maybe 5K.

Have the HVAC put in. Have the HVAC people tear up walls as needed. That will cost maybe 30K-50K to put all the vents and buy all new units.

Then have the electrician come in and totally redo your electrical. You'll pay at least 20K for that. We didn't have it done but our rowhouse neighbor did. He'll have to add the electrical for the laundry room.

Then have the plumbing re-done as needed. Have the laundry facilities moved. No need to have it torn up from the street, just have it inspected and then re-done in places where it's unideal. Pay a plumber directly for this to be done. Someone who gets good reviews from your neighbors/ neighborhood listserve. You may be worried about lead. Test for lead. If you don't have it in your drinking water, don't totally re-do the pipes. We tested and then had it re-done. 10K

Then have your kitchen put in. This person will patch the kitchen wall you had torn down if you had it torn down. The cost for this in a high end neighborhood during covid will be 50K-75K. Use a kitchen specialist.

Then have the bathrooms done. At the very cheapest, you'll pay 15K total for a main bath and powder room. But, if you're going more expensive it could be up to $50K or even higher. It just depends on your tastes.

Then have someone fix all of your walls. We had our walls repaired and re-surfaced in our first and second floors (added molding as well) and it was about 10K for that. That estimate was cheap, though. You might pay 30K for the same thing if you're in an expensive area.

Then have your floors re-done. If you can keep some of the flooring and just add tile to the kitchen, then you can save a lot here. Maybe pay 7K for this? If you want all new floors, then you'll pay more. 15K?

I assume you want all new doors and windosws. Then you're up to 20K.

So, with basics covered in the cheapest way possible, you're looking at: 220-280K.

If you add the services of someone general contracting for you and overages, it maybe takes you up to 450 at least.

So, I'm going to assume you're in Georgetown or Kalorama. In which case, you're getting the rich people upcharge.

If you're balking at paying more fees for detailed plans, you're missing the forest for the trees. Getting at least three proposals is crucial when undertaking a change this major.

If you have plenty of money but just don't feel like spending it on this, probably you need to get over it.

If you really need it to be cheaper, you'll want to get more bids and probably have to manage things more closely.

Thanks- it's a SFH in Brookland. We were expecting around $400k, so the additional $200k was genuinely a shock to us.

[Anonymous]

15:07 here

We used an architect and separate GC, not a design build.

We went with a small, local builder, not one of the big outfits (all of which were drastically more expensive).

To save costs, we did all of the purchasing and receiving ourselves (which saved on overhead).

The biggest issue with what 15:41 is suggesting is having access to high quality subs and sequencing them correctly. Because of the various inspections, the subs need to come in and out in a highly choreographed dance. The biggest value add of the GC is being able to have all the subs lined up at the right time and available to come back if needed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP:
I'm going to tell you my experience and suggest maybe you take a path more similar to mine rather than taking your house down to the studs.

I bought a house in DC as well. And we have touched every single surface in the house over the years. Total, we've probably put 120K in. While we have had some electrical work done, we haven't had that system pulled out and put back in.

We did our changes piece by piece, but I'm going to list what we would have done if we had done the same thing, all at once starting from the beginning with prices we paid. Only a small amount of our work was done during COVID, and lots of it was done many years ago, so you will, obviously pay higher prices. In some cases much higher.

You'll pay much less if you keep the same footprint. Which, if it's a DC rowhouse, you should really do (with the exception of possibly taking out the wall between the kitchen and the dining room. If it's a row house, that wall is not structural in most cases so you don't need an engineer.

To save money, you'll be your own general contractor.

Have design plans drawn up for the kitchen and bathrooms if you need it. I designed my own and didn't actually change the layout of any of the above (rowhouses seldom allow for a total re-do of the layout unless you're putting a bathroom in the third tiny bedroom of a rowhouse.) But you can pay for them to be re-designed if you'd like. They will tell you if you need to move wires or pipes.

First, I would take out the kitchen and kitchen wall if you're going to do that. To take that out and have the debris cleared away, you'll pay maybe 5K.

Have the HVAC put in. Have the HVAC people tear up walls as needed. That will cost maybe 30K-50K to put all the vents and buy all new units.

Then have the electrician come in and totally redo your electrical. You'll pay at least 20K for that. We didn't have it done but our rowhouse neighbor did. He'll have to add the electrical for the laundry room.

Then have the plumbing re-done as needed. Have the laundry facilities moved. No need to have it torn up from the street, just have it inspected and then re-done in places where it's unideal. Pay a plumber directly for this to be done. Someone who gets good reviews from your neighbors/ neighborhood listserve. You may be worried about lead. Test for lead. If you don't have it in your drinking water, don't totally re-do the pipes. We tested and then had it re-done. 10K

Then have your kitchen put in. This person will patch the kitchen wall you had torn down if you had it torn down. The cost for this in a high end neighborhood during covid will be 50K-75K. Use a kitchen specialist.

Then have the bathrooms done. At the very cheapest, you'll pay 15K total for a main bath and powder room. But, if you're going more expensive it could be up to $50K or even higher. It just depends on your tastes.

Then have someone fix all of your walls. We had our walls repaired and re-surfaced in our first and second floors (added molding as well) and it was about 10K for that. That estimate was cheap, though. You might pay 30K for the same thing if you're in an expensive area.

Then have your floors re-done. If you can keep some of the flooring and just add tile to the kitchen, then you can save a lot here. Maybe pay 7K for this? If you want all new floors, then you'll pay more. 15K?

I assume you want all new doors and windosws. Then you're up to 20K.

So, with basics covered in the cheapest way possible, you're looking at: 220-280K.

If you add the services of someone general contracting for you and overages, it maybe takes you up to 450 at least.

So, I'm going to assume you're in Georgetown or Kalorama. In which case, you're getting the rich people upcharge.

If you're balking at paying more fees for detailed plans, you're missing the forest for the trees. Getting at least three proposals is crucial when undertaking a change this major.

If you have plenty of money but just don't feel like spending it on this, probably you need to get over it.

If you really need it to be cheaper, you'll want to get more bids and probably have to manage things more closely.

Thanks- it's a SFH in Brookland. We were expecting around $400k, so the additional $200k was genuinely a shock to us.

If you're in Brookland, ask on the Brookland listserve who other people have used. You shouldn't be getting the rich people upcharge in Brookland. I wouldn't do design build. I would just hire an architect and a general contractor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It would be cheaper to tear down and build a new house. Truly, the scope of work you're doing makes absolutely no sense. Yes, they price is high, but you're basically asking for a new house within the limits of your current footprint - which is harder to do than just building from scratch an floorplan that works! So it's not THAT high, but you should've gotten an itemized breakdown.

why do you think it is cheaper? Do you know the quote for the new house? I can tell you, it starts from 800K 4 bedroom/ 4 bathroom one car garage, 3600 finished space (counting the finished bashment)

It is definitely cheaper. She owns the land.

OP knocking the whole thing down is a way cheaper way to go.

What you are asking of the contractor is way harder hence costs more.

Plus in Covid you are paying top dollar for materials and workers.

Actually I gave you the quote WITHOUT the land as I am in the same situation teardown or renovate.
So, yeah I was thinking that rebuild is cheaper until I actually got the quotes from a few builders...and it takes much longer to build a house 12-18 months - so I am back to remodeling

[Anonymous]

From me pre-COVID experience that sounds very high. I also would have guessed ~$400k based on a similar project we did.

[Anonymous]

Oh yeah. That’s right. And you’ll do it too. What era is your house? Why the massive gut? Consult with an architect too just in case.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most design build firms won’t give you a solid quote until you have construction drawings (not just floorplans). Same with a general contractor.

does it make sense to hire the architect for the drawings and then seek the birds from the general constructors?

Not for a gut job. We are doing what we thought was a modest renovation and used an architect, love our plans, then got nuked when we saw the ballparks from builders anyway. So for a gut yes go design build for sure.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most design build firms won’t give you a solid quote until you have construction drawings (not just floorplans). Same with a general contractor.

does it make sense to hire the architect for the drawings and then seek the birds from the general constructors?

Not for a gut job. We are doing what we thought was a modest renovation and used an architect, love our plans, then got nuked when we saw the ballparks from builders anyway. So for a gut yes go design build for sure.

Do these designs expire? I mean if I decide to postpone the project for a few years, will they be still goo? Please do not laugh I know the structural survey has an expiration date

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We did a similar project in a historic home in a desirable neighborhood. Gutted three floors, approximately 4500 square feet with 4.5 baths and a new kitchen. All new guts (HVAC, electrical, plumbing). For hard costs, we were all in at $475k and we did not use what I would consider higher end materials. That didn't include the soft costs (architect, permits, rent while we were out of the house, etc.). It is very expensive to demo and rebuild. Our estimate was pre-covid, so I'm not surprised at yours.

OP here-Did you use design build or architect contractor? If so, do you have recs? Also, we are planning on gutting two floors which combined are 2100 sqft- so you have double the square footage that we have so maybe that will make a difference price wise.

NP - From my experience and understanding, square footage doesn’t matter. Smaller projects are actually more expensive in terms of cost per square foot because you lose out on economies of scale. You still need the plumber out there, electrical. And you’ll still be doing a kitchen and bathrooms - those are the expensive spaces but adding more general rooms brings the average cost down.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In general we found that design build firms estimate 40-60% more than GCs for the same job. Plus given the shortages of material, throw in another 10-20%, so you're looking at a 50-80% difference over what you'd likely pay in normal times.

+1. The prices in this thread are insane, and this is coming from someone who has personally done this kind of work, so I know what is involved.

[Anonymous]

Sounds like your house is a total dump if that’s the estimate you got. Sorry OP.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In general we found that design build firms estimate 40-60% more than GCs for the same job. Plus given the shortages of material, throw in another 10-20%, so you're looking at a 50-80% difference over what you'd likely pay in normal times.

+1. The prices in this thread are insane, and this is coming from someone who has personally done this kind of work, so I know what is involved.

Yeah, just go with a general contractor.

[Anonymous]

We got a bid for $249,000 to add a deck and enclose the area below. We were taking an existing window and turning it into a door and no other work on our current home.

We were using wood (ok it's pricey now) instead of Trex.

$250,000 for a deck and tiny room below that would be off our walk out basement.

When I asked the contractor he said he has third parties do the bids for him so he wasn't familiar with how it was done.
Who would work with someone like this? Apparently a lot of people do because he was super busy.

Contractors are charging insane prices and speeding though jobs doing shoddy work because they want to take advantage of this crazy market.

I'd skip it. when the market corrects, it will be 25% cheaper