Renovation cost- too high or about right

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:it seems high but not unreasonable. you are doing really a lot of work and it takes more time to gut a full house down to the studs then building a new addition.
last year i was was quoted 150K-200K just to enclose a second floor sleeping porch so it would result in a room and a new smallish full bathroom, and to remodel the current full bathroom (5X7) that is next to the porch.

It's amazing how few people understand this.

[Anonymous]

It would be cheaper to tear down and build a new house. Truly, the scope of work you're doing makes absolutely no sense. Yes, they price is high, but you're basically asking for a new house within the limits of your current footprint - which is harder to do than just building from scratch an floorplan that works! So it's not THAT high, but you should've gotten an itemized breakdown.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP- have you signed a contract with this firm or they are just giving you an estimate of costs? The challenge with deign build (at least when we spoke with them) is they won’t give you any detailed estimate until they do the design, which you have to pay for. I am guessing they are just estimating the cost. If your house is 2100 sq ft and they assume $200/sq for Reno cost, that puts you at $420k and possibly they added in fees for permitting and structural engineers, etc. In reality, the actual estimate could be lower, depending on how much of the work is floor space v walls or bedrooms v bathroom/kitchen. But if you haven’t signed a contract, I would assume they are making assumptions about high end finishes and worst case scenario discoveries.

PP that is what we thought, but how are we supposed to shop around if to get a solid quote we have to pay 2.5K? Also it takes time for that kind of project analysis...hence it is likely we are getting over the market price after all and wasting the time . Have you thought about splitting the job into parts. It is much easier to get a quote for say knocking down the wall or kitchen remodeling but separately

[Anonymous]

Most design build firms won’t give you a solid quote until you have construction drawings (not just floorplans). Same with a general contractor.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It would be cheaper to tear down and build a new house. Truly, the scope of work you're doing makes absolutely no sense. Yes, they price is high, but you're basically asking for a new house within the limits of your current footprint - which is harder to do than just building from scratch an floorplan that works! So it's not THAT high, but you should've gotten an itemized breakdown.

why do you think it is cheaper? Do you know the quote for the new house? I can tell you, it starts from 800K 4 bedroom/ 4 bathroom one car garage, 3600 finished space (counting the finished bashment)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Most design build firms won’t give you a solid quote until you have construction drawings (not just floorplans). Same with a general contractor.

does it make sense to hire the architect for the drawings and then seek the birds from the general constructors?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most design build firms won’t give you a solid quote until you have construction drawings (not just floorplans). Same with a general contractor.

does it make sense to hire the architect for the drawings and then seek the birds from the general constructors?

Sure—lots of people do that. The so-called “value” of design built is that they are there from the beginning to keep your project on track and within your general budget. Some firms are more or less successful at that. Some people just prefer using an architect and then getting concrete bids. Either way, you’ll pay about 10% of the budget on architectural fees—whether to an independent architect or to the design built firm. There are some larger design built firms that have architects on staff and have flat fees for the design part of the process.

[Anonymous]

^build

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most design build firms won’t give you a solid quote until you have construction drawings (not just floorplans). Same with a general contractor.

does it make sense to hire the architect for the drawings and then seek the birds from the general constructors?

Sure—lots of people do that. The so-called “value” of design built is that they are there from the beginning to keep your project on track and within your general budget. Some firms are moron stuff e or less successful at that. Some people just prefer using an architect and then getting concrete bids. Either way, you’ll pay about 10% of the budget on architectural fees—whether to an independent architect or to the design built firm. There are some larger design built firms that have architects on staff and have flat fees for the design part of the process.

With architects on stuff I am worried about the conflict of interest . Now when the costs gone wild the customers are in a very vulnerable position

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hi- we just got a bid from a design build firm for a renovation of our home and are in absolute shock. Here’s what we are doing:
-gutting the house down to the studs on the first and second floor
-replumbing, upgrading electrical, installing hvac,
- adding a powder room on the first floor, a second bath on the second floor
-gutting kitchen
-adding laundry room to the first floor
- replacing floors that cannot be salvaged refinishing the wooden floors so they match
We are not: finishing our basement or changing the existing footprint of the house, or touching the exterior.

We were not prepared for the number they suggested-$599k. The structural elements before any fixtures or cabinets alone was $475k. The SOW did not include a price breakdown of any of these items, just a grand total at the end. Is that normal?

LOL. We did this with a design build and were quoted $600K and ended up spending $950K. Design build firms are the most expensive option. Which firm is it? If it's one that starts with an L, I don't recommend it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Most design build firms won’t give you a solid quote until you have construction drawings (not just floorplans). Same with a general contractor.

does it make sense to hire the architect for the drawings and then seek the birds from the general constructors?

Sure—lots of people do that. The so-called “value” of design built is that they are there from the beginning to keep your project on track and within your general budget. Some firms are moron stuff e or less successful at that. Some people just prefer using an architect and then getting concrete bids. Either way, you’ll pay about 10% of the budget on architectural fees—whether to an independent architect or to the design built firm. There are some larger design built firms that have architects on staff and have flat fees for the design part of the process.

With architects on stuff I am worried about the conflict of interest . Now when the costs gone wild the customers are in a very vulnerable position

What are you talking about?

With a design build firm you have no one else in your corner. When there is a clear issue and the design build firm brings their in house architect who do you thing the architect is going to side with? Their company or you?

If you hire an architect directly their fiduciary responsibility is to you.

[Anonymous]

We did a similar project in a historic home in a desirable neighborhood. Gutted three floors, approximately 4500 square feet with 4.5 baths and a new kitchen. All new guts (HVAC, electrical, plumbing). For hard costs, we were all in at $475k and we did not use what I would consider higher end materials. That didn't include the soft costs (architect, permits, rent while we were out of the house, etc.). It is very expensive to demo and rebuild. Our estimate was pre-covid, so I'm not surprised at yours.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:We did a similar project in a historic home in a desirable neighborhood. Gutted three floors, approximately 4500 square feet with 4.5 baths and a new kitchen. All new guts (HVAC, electrical, plumbing). For hard costs, we were all in at $475k and we did not use what I would consider higher end materials. That didn't include the soft costs (architect, permits, rent while we were out of the house, etc.). It is very expensive to demo and rebuild. Our estimate was pre-covid, so I'm not surprised at yours.

OP here-Did you use design build or architect contractor? If so, do you have recs? Also, we are planning on gutting two floors which combined are 2100 sqft- so you have double the square footage that we have so maybe that will make a difference price wise.

[Anonymous]

The estimate is high. We did a similar project in DC and paid around $500k. Gut reno but we also underpinned 3 feet and made our basement a legally separate unit (so we paid for not one, but two kitchens and laundry areas) - 5 beds and 4.5 baths total, 2 beds and 2 bath in the basement. We also made a lot of change orders and if we had thought things through could've saved $100k.

[Anonymous]

OP:
I'm going to tell you my experience and suggest maybe you take a path more similar to mine rather than taking your house down to the studs.

I bought a house in DC as well. And we have touched every single surface in the house over the years. Total, we've probably put 120K in. While we have had some electrical work done, we haven't had that system pulled out and put back in.

We did our changes piece by piece, but I'm going to list what we would have done if we had done the same thing, all at once starting from the beginning with prices we paid. Only a small amount of our work was done during COVID, and lots of it was done many years ago, so you will, obviously pay higher prices. In some cases much higher.

You'll pay much less if you keep the same footprint. Which, if it's a DC rowhouse, you should really do (with the exception of possibly taking out the wall between the kitchen and the dining room. If it's a row house, that wall is not structural in most cases so you don't need an engineer.

To save money, you'll be your own general contractor.

Have design plans drawn up for the kitchen and bathrooms if you need it. I designed my own and didn't actually change the layout of any of the above (rowhouses seldom allow for a total re-do of the layout unless you're putting a bathroom in the third tiny bedroom of a rowhouse.) But you can pay for them to be re-designed if you'd like. They will tell you if you need to move wires or pipes.

First, I would take out the kitchen and kitchen wall if you're going to do that. To take that out and have the debris cleared away, you'll pay maybe 5K.

Have the HVAC put in. Have the HVAC people tear up walls as needed. That will cost maybe 30K-50K to put all the vents and buy all new units.

Then have the electrician come in and totally redo your electrical. You'll pay at least 20K for that. We didn't have it done but our rowhouse neighbor did. He'll have to add the electrical for the laundry room.

Then have the plumbing re-done as needed. Have the laundry facilities moved. No need to have it torn up from the street, just have it inspected and then re-done in places where it's unideal. Pay a plumber directly for this to be done. Someone who gets good reviews from your neighbors/ neighborhood listserve. You may be worried about lead. Test for lead. If you don't have it in your drinking water, don't totally re-do the pipes. We tested and then had it re-done. 10K

Then have your kitchen put in. This person will patch the kitchen wall you had torn down if you had it torn down. The cost for this in a high end neighborhood during covid will be 50K-75K. Use a kitchen specialist.

Then have the bathrooms done. At the very cheapest, you'll pay 15K total for a main bath and powder room. But, if you're going more expensive it could be up to $50K or even higher. It just depends on your tastes.

Then have someone fix all of your walls. We had our walls repaired and re-surfaced in our first and second floors (added molding as well) and it was about 10K for that. That estimate was cheap, though. You might pay 30K for the same thing if you're in an expensive area.

Then have your floors re-done. If you can keep some of the flooring and just add tile to the kitchen, then you can save a lot here. Maybe pay 7K for this? If you want all new floors, then you'll pay more. 15K?

I assume you want all new doors and windosws. Then you're up to 20K.

So, with basics covered in the cheapest way possible, you're looking at: 220-280K.

If you add the services of someone general contracting for you and overages, it maybe takes you up to 450 at least.

So, I'm going to assume you're in Georgetown or Kalorama. In which case, you're getting the rich people upcharge.

If you're balking at paying more fees for detailed plans, you're missing the forest for the trees. Getting at least three proposals is crucial when undertaking a change this major.

If you have plenty of money but just don't feel like spending it on this, probably you need to get over it.

If you really need it to be cheaper, you'll want to get more bids and probably have to manage things more closely.