Tell me about St Andrews in Scotland

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:St Andrews is a good school. Probably would be around T50 - T75 if it were in the States, for some context.

top 10 SLACs

No, it's a university. And as a university, it would probably be competitive with the universities ranked around T50-T75 in America, for context.

Er no, its a tiny university. There are no "liberal arts colleges" in the UK. There are Art Schools like the Royal College of Art and there are Drama Schools like RADA but not any LACs whatsoever.

But there are huge universities - like Manchester and tiny ones, like St. Andrews, hence the very accurate comparison.

St. Andrews has ~7000 undergraduates; I wouldn't call it "tiny." That's roughly the same as schools like Brown, UChicago, Stanford, Harvard, William & Mary, Tulane etc. and no one really considers those schools "tiny."

Exactly. This person has no idea what they're talking about. And even if it were comparable to a LAC (which again, it's not at all), it would be generous to compare it to a "top 10". I've noticed there are a lot of UK boosters on this forum, strangely.

[Anonymous]

Bringing back this topic—-has anyone gone to St. Andrews 2021-22 or applied for admission for 2022? Which programs? ( looking for info other than the w&m program)

[Anonymous]

My DC’s friend is there now and struggling. I think it’s social, not academic struggles. Friend is Asian American and says the discrimination against Asians in the UK is much worse than the US and very overt, not as subtle as it can be in the US. What others have said about apartments, etc. is consistent with this student’s exoerience

[Anonymous]

Acceptance rate for international students at St Andrews is below 10%. That is certainly competitive with top US schools. The acceptance rate is higher for domestic students but UK students are limited to the number for schools they can apply to and have to get certain test scores to even apply to certain levels of schools. So the domestic applicant is already somewhat screened. It is very competitive to get into St. Andrews.

[Anonymous]

My DD attends and says she can't imagine getting a better quality of education. Having said that, it's been challenging with 95% of classes still online, and there's a huge problem with a lack of housing. Anecdotally, there are many students who still don't have confirmed housing for next year. There seem to be a lot of really insanely wealthy students who attend (and can buy flats or houses in town at ridiculous prices) but there are kids of all shapes and sizes. DD loves it.

[Anonymous]

It's a good school. Won't count for much in the US. Looking at pics online of "inside" the dorms are 1960's and the classrooms, labs have not been updated since the 60s or 70s. For the money, for the educations - pick a US college.

[Anonymous]

He should just do study abroad for a year

[Anonymous]

Why does a kid want to go that far away? It's weird.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm always a little concerned when I see parents thinking of sending their children to universities abroad. It is a long-term commitment. The best universities in America offer arguably the best undergraduate education, and at least for job prospects (particularly in North America), a U.S. degree will get you farther. I know it's not popular to say these kinds of things (I feel like I need to say that I am not remotely near a MAGA head), but I feel like it warrants mention.

So having worked in academia and studied in both UK and US institutions, I couldn't disagree more. I think the rigor of UK institutions, particularly the better ones (in which I would include St. Andrews, though it is certainly not at the level of Cambridge for most subjects), is much higher at the undergraduate level. Grade inflation, money, and the importance of student evaluations of teachers have really undermined quality control in the US. For graduate degrees, it is a different story and more nuanced. You will emerge from a top UK University with more intellectual discipline.

As for job prospects, that is a very complicated question. You do lose the advantage of the large network a US university can offer. But for many internationally-focused jobs a foreign degree is not a problem. And for many professions nowadays, especially in the DC area, you will need a graduate qualification in any case, and a UK undergrad is no disadvantage in getting in, and a huge advantage in handling the requirements, of a US graduate school.

Yes, there is a risk that they will stay in Europe. But then there is a risk that if they study in the US they will move to the West Coast, which is not much closer than the UK.

I actually am going to agree with the first poster -- I'm have a PhD, studied abroad for a year in the UK, and am married to a college professor.

I would say that you *can* come out of a rigorous UK institution, which would include St. Andrews, with an education beyond reproach. But I will also say that it is much, much easier to fall through the cracks or to skate by. My (upper middle tier) LAC education was of much higher quality than the education I received in the UK and I would entirely base that on the fact that in most -- but not all -- classes, the bulk of the grade is based on performance on a final exam or paper, whereas in the US grades include a hefty participation component and a lot more "check in" style assignments (smaller papers throughout, presentations, etc). Say what you will about participation grades, but IME to do well in a seminar style class you need to be much more on top of things throughout the semester and that contributes to higher retention and learning. In some of my UK classes the professor would hand you a syllabus with dozens of books and papers on it to read, you'd attend lecture if you wanted, and you'd take a final. You never even really needed to attend class and could still get a high mark in the class if you did well on the test. I'm an excellent test taker and sailed through my classes with maybe 20% of the effort I put into any class I'd take in the States. I was top of the class in a few classes I attended 4-5 times over the course of a semester because the professors would typically give you old test questions as study guides in advance of the exams and it doesn't take a genius mind to figure out what you need to review to perform well on questions of that sort. Since I was there on study abroad, I was much more interested in the "cultural" aspects of my time and spent way more time working/living/socializing/traveling than I did on education, so if you're there for 4 years I imagine that would be a little different but still, a 4 year residential US college experience is much more immersive than a college experience in *most* cases in *many* UK universities.

This will vary wildly by major. I'm a social scientist. The class, by far, that I remember the most from had an optional discussion component which I attended regularly (embarrassingly, because the teacher was hot) but otherwise all my classes except a few were predominantly lecture-style as I described above. I did take a biology class with a lab component as well and learned a lot from that, but the test was really mostly memorizing taxonomy.

Everything people said about the socializing is accurate. Students live off campus in tight knit social groups. I'd say the vast majority of folks I went to school with had part-time jobs. A LOT of people clear out and go home for the weekends. Drinking happens and is significant but overall no more so than in US colleges, and there's a bit more civility to it I'd say since it's legal and people do it in pubs/etc instead of at ragers with solo cups (although, those do also happen).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Why does a kid want to go that far away? It's weird.

No. You’re weird. Do you not think kids should study abroad for a year either?

[Anonymous]

The St Andrews boosters on this site are out of their mind. StA would be LUCKY to be considered a top 50 or top 75 school in the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Acceptance rate for international students at St Andrews is below 10%. That is certainly competitive with top US schools. The acceptance rate is higher for domestic students but UK students are limited to the number for schools they can apply to and have to get certain test scores to even apply to certain levels of schools. So the domestic applicant is already somewhat screened. It is very competitive to get into St. Andrews.

Acceptance rate means so little in this context (especially nowadays), and especially less so when you realize that the vast majority of Americans applying to StA are kids who aren't competitive for top schools stateside and read the Harry Potter books growing up/have a weird fascination with Prince William and Kate Middleton.

[Anonymous]

I think it could be an amazing experience. I studied abroad in Europe for a year and did my Master’s in Switzerland. My only reservation would be the networking side of school. Most of my network after grad school was in Europe and I applied to a ton of jobs but since I only had a student visa, it limited my options so I moved to DC to build a new one. In hindsight I should have hustled harder in Europe or gone to school in the states if I wanted to really prioritize my career. For undergrad, it may not be as important.

[Anonymous]

Went as an ADHDer and it was perfect. Got to study what I wanted…received international experience which helped later in my career. Transferred back to an Ivy. St A is (like anything) what you make of it. Kids generally all just missed Oxbridge - often bombing the interview it seemed. Only regret: never learned to play golf!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My nephew is there and loves it. He seems to know lots of very wealthy classmates.

My DD applied and got in but, ultimately, chose a different UK university. St Andrews is known for having a high percentage of US students (relative to other UK schools) and posh, private school UK students. It definitely has a Hogwarts vibe (ancient buildings and the students wear bright red robes). It is very beautiful but geographically isolated in a small town. As I understand it, international relations is a particularly popular major there.

Because they have a relatively high U.S. student population, they're skilled at catering to U.S. students (and parents!). St Andrews was the only one of the five UK schools my DD was accepted to that bothered to send a congratulatory snail mail acceptance, complete with slick US-style marketing material. They are also more willing to offer unconditional acceptances than some other prominent UK schools. This is particularly nice because having to meet your offer is nerve-wracking, particularly when all of your other US friends already know where they're going by spring.

If your son is seriously interested in submitting an application one good resource is The Student Room, which is like College Confidential for UK students. I've also included a link to St Andrew's The Tab online publication. The Tab is a chain of student-run publications (lots of UK unis have one so your DC can check out other schools to get a flavor). It's a bit snarky and irreverent but gives a general vibe.

https://thetab.com/uk/stand/?cmpredirect

LOL! Really? That’s interesting.