Tell me about St Andrews in Scotland

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm always a little concerned when I see parents thinking of sending their children to universities abroad. It is a long-term commitment. The best universities in America offer arguably the best undergraduate education, and at least for job prospects (particularly in North America), a U.S. degree will get you farther. I know it's not popular to say these kinds of things (I feel like I need to say that I am not remotely near a MAGA head), but I feel like it warrants mention.

So having worked in academia and studied in both UK and US institutions, I couldn't disagree more. I think the rigor of UK institutions, particularly the better ones (in which I would include St. Andrews, though it is certainly not at the level of Cambridge for most subjects), is much higher at the undergraduate level. Grade inflation, money, and the importance of student evaluations of teachers have really undermined quality control in the US. For graduate degrees, it is a different story and more nuanced. You will emerge from a top UK University with more intellectual discipline.

As for job prospects, that is a very complicated question. You do lose the advantage of the large network a US university can offer. But for many internationally-focused jobs a foreign degree is not a problem. And for many professions nowadays, especially in the DC area, you will need a graduate qualification in any case, and a UK undergrad is no disadvantage in getting in, and a huge advantage in handling the requirements, of a US graduate school.

Yes, there is a risk that they will stay in Europe. But then there is a risk that if they study in the US they will move to the West Coast, which is not much closer than the UK.

And at least Scotland has no bogus vaccine/booster requirement.

California has gone a little nuts with requiring Covid boosters at some schools even just to VISIT.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm always a little concerned when I see parents thinking of sending their children to universities abroad. It is a long-term commitment. The best universities in America offer arguably the best undergraduate education, and at least for job prospects (particularly in North America), a U.S. degree will get you farther. I know it's not popular to say these kinds of things (I feel like I need to say that I am not remotely near a MAGA head), but I feel like it warrants mention.

That's just not true. The US Bachelor degree is much less specialized than the UK Bachelor degrees. I worked for the UK Social Work regulator and we would only accept social workers for the US who had the Master of Social Work as that was assessed to be more equivalent to the British Bachelor of Social Work. We would not accept the BSW from the US.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The St Andrews boosters on this site are out of their mind. StA would be LUCKY to be considered a top 50 or top 75 school in the US.

Based on your informed judgement???

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Went as an ADHDer and it was perfect. Got to study what I wanted…received international experience which helped later in my career. Transferred back to an Ivy. St A is (like anything) what you make of it. Kids generally all just missed Oxbridge - often bombing the interview it seemed. Only regret: never learned to play golf!

If this poster wouldn’t mind sharing a little bit more— I am asking for my daughter who might not want to spend 4 years there. What was the experience of transferring back to US college? Her high school stats are great ( 4.0 boarding school 1550 SAT) did your US school want only St. Andrews grades or also high school and what was your experience of missing the freshman year at your school w/r/t meeting people and making friends. And how did your “ major” transfer back

[Anonymous]

A few things:

- it is difficult to get into, and they pick kids carefully. Yes, the UK ratings are all over the place, but you need to look at why. The high ratings are in part driven by student satisfaction and quality of teaching (which isn't a bad thing), but the lower UK ratings are often driven by things like research output. But it's small for a UK school, and it doesn't have some of the purer sciences and so it doesn't put out that much research. You wouldn't penalize say Trinity for producing less academic research than UVA.

- the curriculum is really interesting, and allows you to take non-major courses for a couple of years. It's not quite full-on American style liberal arts, but nor is it rigid UK "read" a subject. IR in particular is very well reputed.

- they confer a Master's degree. I'm sure people here will jump on that and say it's not the same as a US master's, but the fact remains it's not a BA

- any young adult who chooses to do a full course in a different country, with different expectations, within a different system and where they are culturally in the minority is taking a huge leap and showing you who they are. This factor will -- in an interview setting -- easily counter-balance any of the negative perceptions (not warranted, IMHO) propagated by this board. I'd much rather hire a kid who showed this initiative than one who went to the same northeastern school their parents did because they thought they were supposed to.

It is absolutely a place where you get what you put in, and sure, you can cruise and barely make it. And yes, there is less hand-holding, because they expect you to be an adult. But you can also dive in and get a truly world class experience and emerge differentiating yourself from your peer group as someone who does something bold.

And yes, it means a broader view of the world, and a child who might live and work in the UK, or Europe, or even more widely in the world rather than coming back to metro DC. For some of us, that sounds like a grand adventure and we're open for our kids to consider it, especially when the kids have multi-country origins.

It's a very different but very viable option.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm always a little concerned when I see parents thinking of sending their children to universities abroad. It is a long-term commitment. The best universities in America offer arguably the best undergraduate education, and at least for job prospects (particularly in North America), a U.S. degree will get you farther. I know it's not popular to say these kinds of things (I feel like I need to say that I am not remotely near a MAGA head), but I feel like it warrants mention.

Do you have stats to back that up? At. Andrew’s rivals good US universities.

What gives you the impression that St. Andrews rivals "good US universities"? It would be lucky to be placed in the top 75 or so if it were plopped in the States.

The Guardian ranks it #2 in the UK, ahead of Cambridge: https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2020/sep/05/the-best-uk-universities-2021-league-table

No one, and certainly not Brits, would rank St Andrews above Cambridge.

I'm pretty sure the Guardian is a UK newpaper.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm always a little concerned when I see parents thinking of sending their children to universities abroad. It is a long-term commitment. The best universities in America offer arguably the best undergraduate education, and at least for job prospects (particularly in North America), a U.S. degree will get you farther. I know it's not popular to say these kinds of things (I feel like I need to say that I am not remotely near a MAGA head), but I feel like it warrants mention.

Do you have stats to back that up? At. Andrew’s rivals good US universities.

What gives you the impression that St. Andrews rivals "good US universities"? It would be lucky to be placed in the top 75 or so if it were plopped in the States.

The Guardian ranks it #2 in the UK, ahead of Cambridge: https://www.theguardian.com/education/ng-interactive/2020/sep/05/the-best-uk-universities-2021-league-table

No one, and certainly not Brits, would rank St Andrews above Cambridge.

I'm pretty sure the Guardian is a UK newpaper.

And? There are plenty of bogus rankings anywhere and everywhere you look.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm always a little concerned when I see parents thinking of sending their children to universities abroad. It is a long-term commitment. The best universities in America offer arguably the best undergraduate education, and at least for job prospects (particularly in North America), a U.S. degree will get you farther. I know it's not popular to say these kinds of things (I feel like I need to say that I am not remotely near a MAGA head), but I feel like it warrants mention.

So having worked in academia and studied in both UK and US institutions, I couldn't disagree more. I think the rigor of UK institutions, particularly the better ones (in which I would include St. Andrews, though it is certainly not at the level of Cambridge for most subjects), is much higher at the undergraduate level. Grade inflation, money, and the importance of student evaluations of teachers have really undermined quality control in the US. For graduate degrees, it is a different story and more nuanced. You will emerge from a top UK University with more intellectual discipline.

As for job prospects, that is a very complicated question. You do lose the advantage of the large network a US university can offer. But for many internationally-focused jobs a foreign degree is not a problem. And for many professions nowadays, especially in the DC area, you will need a graduate qualification in any case, and a UK undergrad is no disadvantage in getting in, and a huge advantage in handling the requirements, of a US graduate school.

Yes, there is a risk that they will stay in Europe. But then there is a risk that if they study in the US they will move to the West Coast, which is not much closer than the UK.

And at least Scotland has no bogus vaccine/booster requirement.

California has gone a little nuts with requiring Covid boosters at some schools even just to VISIT.

But they are mask crazy. I just got back from Edinburgh. People will yell at you (nicely) if you don't have your mask on.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A few things:

- it is difficult to get into, and they pick kids carefully. Yes, the UK ratings are all over the place, but you need to look at why. The high ratings are in part driven by student satisfaction and quality of teaching (which isn't a bad thing), but the lower UK ratings are often driven by things like research output. But it's small for a UK school, and it doesn't have some of the purer sciences and so it doesn't put out that much research. You wouldn't penalize say Trinity for producing less academic research than UVA.

- the curriculum is really interesting, and allows you to take non-major courses for a couple of years. It's not quite full-on American style liberal arts, but nor is it rigid UK "read" a subject. IR in particular is very well reputed.

- they confer a Master's degree. I'm sure people here will jump on that and say it's not the same as a US master's, but the fact remains it's not a BA

- any young adult who chooses to do a full course in a different country, with different expectations, within a different system and where they are culturally in the minority is taking a huge leap and showing you who they are. This factor will -- in an interview setting -- easily counter-balance any of the negative perceptions (not warranted, IMHO) propagated by this board. I'd much rather hire a kid who showed this initiative than one who went to the same northeastern school their parents did because they thought they were supposed to.

It is absolutely a place where you get what you put in, and sure, you can cruise and barely make it. And yes, there is less hand-holding, because they expect you to be an adult. But you can also dive in and get a truly world class experience and emerge differentiating yourself from your peer group as someone who does something bold.

And yes, it means a broader view of the world, and a child who might live and work in the UK, or Europe, or even more widely in the world rather than coming back to metro DC. For some of us, that sounds like a grand adventure and we're open for our kids to consider it, especially when the kids have multi-country origins.

It's a very different but very viable option.

The degree you get depends on the subject: Depending on which Faculty you join and which subject you study, you may graduate with any of the following Honours degrees. From St. Andrew's website:

In the Faculty of Arts the degree is called a Master of Arts (MA) which is equivalent to a Bachelor of Arts (BA) elsewhere. However we are unique in also offering a BA (International Honours) degree.
In the Faculty of Science the typical degree is a Bachelor of Science (BSc). We also offer extended undergraduate programmes (known as Integrated Masters) culminating with a Master in Biology (MBiol), Master in Marine Biology (MMarBiol), Master in Biochemistry (MBiochem), Master in Chemistry (MChem), Master in Geology (MGeol), Master in Mathematics (MMath), Master in Physics (MPhys) and Master in Science (MSci). These Integrated Masters courses typically take one year longer than the standard BSc degree.
In the Faculty of Divinity the typical undergraduate degree is a Master of Theology (MTheol). We also offer Master of Arts (MA) in several subject areas of Divinity.
In the Faculty of Medicine the degree is called a Bachelor of Science (BSc) Medicine. The St Andrews element of this degree is three years in length.

[Anonymous]

at my kid's private, the same kids who apply to, say, Sarah Lawrence or Univ of Richmond apply to St Andrew's. and they get in.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:at my kid's private, the same kids who apply to, say, Sarah Lawrence or Univ of Richmond apply to St Andrew's. and they get in.

+1. OP, don't buy into British propaganda regarding their schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm always a little concerned when I see parents thinking of sending their children to universities abroad. It is a long-term commitment. The best universities in America offer arguably the best undergraduate education, and at least for job prospects (particularly in North America), a U.S. degree will get you farther. I know it's not popular to say these kinds of things (I feel like I need to say that I am not remotely near a MAGA head), but I feel like it warrants mention.

So having worked in academia and studied in both UK and US institutions, I couldn't disagree more. I think the rigor of UK institutions, particularly the better ones (in which I would include St. Andrews, though it is certainly not at the level of Cambridge for most subjects), is much higher at the undergraduate level. Grade inflation, money, and the importance of student evaluations of teachers have really undermined quality control in the US. For graduate degrees, it is a different story and more nuanced. You will emerge from a top UK University with more intellectual discipline.

As for job prospects, that is a very complicated question. You do lose the advantage of the large network a US university can offer. But for many internationally-focused jobs a foreign degree is not a problem. And for many professions nowadays, especially in the DC area, you will need a graduate qualification in any case, and a UK undergrad is no disadvantage in getting in, and a huge advantage in handling the requirements, of a US graduate school.

Yes, there is a risk that they will stay in Europe. But then there is a risk that if they study in the US they will move to the West Coast, which is not much closer than the UK.

And at least Scotland has no bogus vaccine/booster requirement.

California has gone a little nuts with requiring Covid boosters at some schools even just to VISIT.

But they are mask crazy. I just got back from Edinburgh. People will yell at you (nicely) if you don't have your mask on.

They are having a surge of the new sub variant. The news is your friend.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I'm always a little concerned when I see parents thinking of sending their children to universities abroad. It is a long-term commitment. The best universities in America offer arguably the best undergraduate education, and at least for job prospects (particularly in North America), a U.S. degree will get you farther. I know it's not popular to say these kinds of things (I feel like I need to say that I am not remotely near a MAGA head), but I feel like it warrants mention.

So having worked in academia and studied in both UK and US institutions, I couldn't disagree more. I think the rigor of UK institutions, particularly the better ones (in which I would include St. Andrews, though it is certainly not at the level of Cambridge for most subjects), is much higher at the undergraduate level. Grade inflation, money, and the importance of student evaluations of teachers have really undermined quality control in the US. For graduate degrees, it is a different story and more nuanced. You will emerge from a top UK University with more intellectual discipline.

As for job prospects, that is a very complicated question. You do lose the advantage of the large network a US university can offer. But for many internationally-focused jobs a foreign degree is not a problem. And for many professions nowadays, especially in the DC area, you will need a graduate qualification in any case, and a UK undergrad is no disadvantage in getting in, and a huge advantage in handling the requirements, of a US graduate school.

Yes, there is a risk that they will stay in Europe. But then there is a risk that if they study in the US they will move to the West Coast, which is not much closer than the UK.

And at least Scotland has no bogus vaccine/booster requirement.

California has gone a little nuts with requiring Covid boosters at some schools even just to VISIT.

But they are mask crazy. I just got back from Edinburgh. People will yell at you (nicely) if you don't have your mask on.

They are having a surge of the new sub variant. The news is your friend.

Why the unnecessary snark? Does it make you feel superior?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A few things:

- it is difficult to get into, and they pick kids carefully. Yes, the UK ratings are all over the place, but you need to look at why. The high ratings are in part driven by student satisfaction and quality of teaching (which isn't a bad thing), but the lower UK ratings are often driven by things like research output. But it's small for a UK school, and it doesn't have some of the purer sciences and so it doesn't put out that much research. You wouldn't penalize say Trinity for producing less academic research than UVA.

- the curriculum is really interesting, and allows you to take non-major courses for a couple of years. It's not quite full-on American style liberal arts, but nor is it rigid UK "read" a subject. IR in particular is very well reputed.

- they confer a Master's degree. I'm sure people here will jump on that and say it's not the same as a US master's, but the fact remains it's not a BA

- any young adult who chooses to do a full course in a different country, with different expectations, within a different system and where they are culturally in the minority is taking a huge leap and showing you who they are. This factor will -- in an interview setting -- easily counter-balance any of the negative perceptions (not warranted, IMHO) propagated by this board. I'd much rather hire a kid who showed this initiative than one who went to the same northeastern school their parents did because they thought they were supposed to.

It is absolutely a place where you get what you put in, and sure, you can cruise and barely make it. And yes, there is less hand-holding, because they expect you to be an adult. But you can also dive in and get a truly world class experience and emerge differentiating yourself from your peer group as someone who does something bold.

And yes, it means a broader view of the world, and a child who might live and work in the UK, or Europe, or even more widely in the world rather than coming back to metro DC. For some of us, that sounds like a grand adventure and we're open for our kids to consider it, especially when the kids have multi-country origins.

It's a very different but very viable option.

The degree you get depends on the subject: Depending on which Faculty you join and which subject you study, you may graduate with any of the following Honours degrees. From St. Andrew's website:

In the Faculty of Arts the degree is called a Master of Arts (MA) which is equivalent to a Bachelor of Arts (BA) elsewhere. However we are unique in also offering a BA (International Honours) degree.
In the Faculty of Science the typical degree is a Bachelor of Science (BSc). We also offer extended undergraduate programmes (known as Integrated Masters) culminating with a Master in Biology (MBiol), Master in Marine Biology (MMarBiol), Master in Biochemistry (MBiochem), Master in Chemistry (MChem), Master in Geology (MGeol), Master in Mathematics (MMath), Master in Physics (MPhys) and Master in Science (MSci). These Integrated Masters courses typically take one year longer than the standard BSc degree.
In the Faculty of Divinity the typical undergraduate degree is a Master of Theology (MTheol). We also offer Master of Arts (MA) in several subject areas of Divinity.
In the Faculty of Medicine the degree is called a Bachelor of Science (BSc) Medicine. The St Andrews element of this degree is three years in length.

Single Honours 2:1 MA degree allows to apply to PhD program in the same subject at Edinburgh. Not sure about US programs.

[Anonymous]

St Andrews has a strange reputation in the UK. I grew up in Scotland and went to a strong academic high school. I don’t know anyone from my school who applied there. The top students tried for Oxbridge, Edinburgh or Imperial Collage. That said, I had an old English friend who was very excited to go there. It’s almost as if it was outside the Scottish university system, and was seen as a place for English ‘Oxbridge rejects’ (public - in the British sense - school kids who couldn’t get into Oxbridge and who applied to other universities deemed prestigious). The fact that it was in this category puts amongst a strong peer group (Durham, Bristol, etc). Take this with a large pinch of salt, as I left high school 30 years ago, and it’s possible that it’s reputation has improved significantly, but I would still say that it’s seen in the UK as a significant step down from Oxford and Cambridge (everywhere is in reputation terms), and in Scotland as below Edinburgh, but it’s seen as a top 10 uni.