Academic prep vs athletic coaching

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Parents should push their kids, if kids need pushing. When I was young my parents gave me freedom and I didn’t make use it, didn’t go to good college.. so when I became a parent I don’t want my kids to struggle in studies or sports. We have done kumon, chess, Rubik cube, math counts, science Olympiad, taekwondo, little league and private sports lessons as needed. The kids need directions and guidance initially, once you know that they can manage then no pushing is needed.

Basic learn to swim lessons don't count-that is for their safety. Many parents do the sign DC's up for basics like recreational soccer/t-ball [like it go into little league]/basketball, 1xweek dance, FCPS strings/band/chorus, school chess club. If the DC likes any of them the number of activities narrow and the DC spends about the same amount of time on 1-2 things. All the training/practice on instruments is not going to result in an untalented player producing but it will sound better than a whining cat, braying donkey,

Private sports lessons? No. A DC might do a summer clinic/camp but private? The ballet comparison was a good one but erroneous. Copeland lost about 3 years of gradual training and some surmise that it contributed to injury. She is physically, mentally, artistically privileged. Of course she surpassed others.

The 3 then 5 classes per week from age 9.5-12.5 that she missed are not the equivalent of coaching /test prep. They are the foundation which is what FCPS k-12 plus homework should present. Basic class and consider local shows [1-3x/year] and those rehearsals as exams. I wasn't going to post then spoke with my adult DC's about the time suck that is FCPS. School is children's job.

Those college teams targeted for The Coached? Fencing, coxswain, lightweight crew. Heavyweight crew is usually tall thin side guys using it for college [not much success in football, basketball, baseball then lacrosse]. Team coaches could really take good football players at various positions - teach stick skills and the game- players surpass the clubby LAX types with The Parents.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Parents should push their kids, if kids need pushing. When I was young my parents gave me freedom and I didn’t make use it, didn’t go to good college.. so when I became a parent I don’t want my kids to struggle in studies or sports. We have done kumon, chess, Rubik cube, math counts, science Olympiad, taekwondo, little league and private sports lessons as needed. The kids need directions and guidance initially, once you know that they can manage then no pushing is needed.

There is a balance. Yes, children give up too quickly on some things and it is the parents job to nudge them.

However, I have seem many Asian parents (and I am an Asian), schedule the kids back to back right from a very young age with activity upon activity.

To me the worst is Kumon. It kills any interest the kids have in math, not for all but for many. The worst is it kills off the mental faculty to imagine and almost feel the math in your head. I say this as the parent of a kid who is absolutely fascinated by math. All the credit for his interest should go to NOT doing Kumon. We went to our SIL house once who has a kid with the same age and they were doing Kumon worksheets in the summer holidays. My SIL asked my son to join in as well and he hated it.

To me, having a lot of downtime is supremely important. Using the downtime however way they want - they should actually get bored, they should have free time to socialize outside of academic activity (a science olympiad meeting does not meet my definition of socialization, even though it is fun and they are doing it with their best friend). So downtime, socialization and time to get bored. These are to me just as important as any of the academic activities you listed above.

Where Asians overdo is to take away the downtime and fill it up with academic activities. Any downtime is seen as a waste of time.

Then the kids tend to develop some weak spots socially and in other such soft skills. Skills that are tough to measure, skills that do not come with a medal attached to them. Since these are not measured, medals not awarded, we Asians tend to ignore them. Not every Asian, but it is the general tendency among highly educated Asian families.

That is really what I am worried about for my own kids. My tendency just like most Asians is to overschedule. I have to very consciously try not to do it. It is difficult due to peer pressure among parents. They seem to think, look their kids are doing Science Bowl, Chess, Tennis, etc. let us add Chess too. I see this over, over and over again. The kids really end up deficient in many skills that really matter in the real world as a result.

Not saying I have the balance pat down, I struggle myself how much to push and how much free time to have. As Asians, we tend to more likely to overschedule than under schedule.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Parents should push their kids, if kids need pushing. When I was young my parents gave me freedom and I didn’t make use it, didn’t go to good college.. so when I became a parent I don’t want my kids to struggle in studies or sports. We have done kumon, chess, Rubik cube, math counts, science Olympiad, taekwondo, little league and private sports lessons as needed. The kids need directions and guidance initially, once you know that they can manage then no pushing is needed.

We have a rule, if you sign up to participate on a team, you finish the season. Your teammates are counting on you. If you agree to try something new, you finish the lessons/games whatever we signed up for to give yourself time to begin to develop the necessary skills. You don't get to drop out at the beginning or middle of something new. When the season/sessions are done, if you are not interested, you don't have to participate again.

There are activities that DS is not great at but he loves and keeps asking to do more because they are fun for him. I think that is great because he is learning to enjoy something that he is not the best at. There are activities that Ds is very good at but doesn't want to keep doing because he doesn't find them fun. So we drop them.

We emphasize effort and not outcome. If DS makes his best effort and fails, then who cares. He tried the best he can. we practice to try and improve and celebrate improvements based on his effort. We expect him to get good grades, because we know that if he makes his best effort he should get good grades. If he doesn't get a good grade (handwriting is the only 2 he has ever received) we practice to improve in that area.

He is 8. We want learning to be fun so he gets to choose his extras. He always chooses robotics, coding, and chess as extras. He also chooses art club which he loves. We let him choose his pleasure reading books but keep books that are more challenging in site and offer to read with him those books. He has a scratch pad that he is using to solve his own math problems.

We encourage and push but we want learning to be fun. School is school but learning outside of school can, and should be, fun.

But also want for him to have down days where he can play with friends or be bored at home. That leads to free play and creative use of what he is learning at school and reading or math for fun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Parents should push their kids, if kids need pushing. When I was young my parents gave me freedom and I didn’t make use it, didn’t go to good college.. so when I became a parent I don’t want my kids to struggle in studies or sports. We have done kumon, chess, Rubik cube, math counts, science Olympiad, taekwondo, little league and private sports lessons as needed. The kids need directions and guidance initially, once you know that they can manage then no pushing is needed.

We have a rule, if you sign up to participate on a team, you finish the season. Your teammates are counting on you. If you agree to try something new, you finish the lessons/games whatever we signed up for to give yourself time to begin to develop the necessary skills. You don't get to drop out at the beginning or middle of something new. When the season/sessions are done, if you are not interested, you don't have to participate again.

There are activities that DS is not great at but he loves and keeps asking to do more because they are fun for him. I think that is great because he is learning to enjoy something that he is not the best at. There are activities that Ds is very good at but doesn't want to keep doing because he doesn't find them fun. So we drop them.

We emphasize effort and not outcome. If DS makes his best effort and fails, then who cares. He tried the best he can. we practice to try and improve and celebrate improvements based on his effort. We expect him to get good grades, because we know that if he makes his best effort he should get good grades. If he doesn't get a good grade (handwriting is the only 2 he has ever received) we practice to improve in that area.

He is 8. We want learning to be fun so he gets to choose his extras. He always chooses robotics, coding, and chess as extras. He also chooses art club which he loves. We let him choose his pleasure reading books but keep books that are more challenging in site and offer to read with him those books. He has a scratch pad that he is using to solve his own math problems.

We encourage and push but we want learning to be fun. School is school but learning outside of school can, and should be, fun.

But also want for him to have down days where he can play with friends or be bored at home. That leads to free play and creative use of what he is learning at school and reading or math for fun.

This is a wonderful attitude to have. I cannot agree more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Asian here. I do not see much contempt for hard work. Never experienced that.

I am very familiar with Carol Dweck's work. I agree with her completely.

But there is also a range. I see families who have coached the hell out of their kids. Worksheets upon worksheets of stuff. Their kids recite facts on World capitals, flags, spellings, simple math questions, science related facts, etc. It just rolls of their tongue.

It also killed their individuality, they lose a certain spark that I have a hard time describing.

Their raw intelligence has been stunted I think as a result of too much structured activity. Their personality decimated. The already introvert tendency in them amplified as free time, time with friends was de-emphasized.

I realized this as by accident we had to live away from fellow Asians for many years after my child was born. I was so grateful for the fact that I did not fall into this cycle.

What you're talking about (in terms of losing that spark) is burnout. Burnout is a well-recognized condition in athletics, academics and professional life. But to somehow suggest, as you seem to be doing, that all Asian kids are burned out, or that you were somehow protected from this because you stayed away from them is nonsense, and smacks of self-hate.

I am not generalizing about all Asians. What I am talking about is the tendency to overschedule a child from a young age. It starts with Kumon. The repetitive sheets upon sheets of math, dulls and kills any interest the kids have in that subject.

Repetition is important in math. In FCPS and in many families in USA that is under emphasized. From what I have seen with many of my friends, the repetition is carried to such an extent that the kids begin to hate math.

For my own child, I started with mental math. DC really enjoys math, it is his favorite subject and for the last 4 years, almost always ends up as the best performing student in math from the school in various competitions. When we go for a long hike, DC would ask for a complicated math problem that can be performed mentally. Really enjoys it.

If we had been in NOVA, I am guessing but I might have done Kumon and other such things. At least from the group of friends that I know, all their kids do well in math, but none has a real interest in it. Very little curiosity in most of them on the subject.

There are plenty of Asians who have an interest in math and do very well. No doubt. I dont know how they approached it, but doubt they overdid the kumon worksheets.

I have seen many science competitions and my kid participated in one event where DC worked with kids from another school, predominantly Asian. The team is composed entirely of Asian kids. When I saw how the whole event was being done, I was horrified. It is an event where my kid is super interested in, DC did many of those things right from 5 years of age. DC would do many of these without any help from me. In the event, not one kid had any interest in the activity, all are actively being pushed to participate. They are just not into that kind of thing. One kid has a state rank on another different activity. These kids are very good, they are not dumb. But parents are pushing them to do an activity that they have no interest in.

That is what I am more worried about. Killing children's interest by making them do activities they are not really interested in. Not all Asians. But I see this often enough.

The article above shows what rich White people do in athletics. Replace Lacrosse, Fencing, etc with Piano, Spelling Bee, etc and you see the Asian equivalent.

We Asians do a lot of things right in terms of education. But we overdo somethings too. Like focussing on TJ as a prize that hard working children's should aspire to. Who do you think put such a thought into their head? Not directly, but via how they talk and actions.

My DC would rather do Science Olympiad, all 23 events by self. So I do know what kids with passion in STEM look like.

This is spot on. I teach math as a hobby and I absolutely agree with you about kids likely getting pushed too much by parents, in this area. I see lots of kids who can handle advanced math with problem solving, but are just not very interested. They will not ask questions, and only do enough of the homework to pass, but if I give them anything optional to think about (however interesting it may be), almost no-one will attempt it. I think this illustrates the danger in parents leading their kids through a linear progression of baby steps because they worry that they have to keep up. Especially if they are not giving them enough free time to socialize and discover their own interests. 20 years back, it felt that there was a higher sense of curiosity and wonder in kids in school. It's hard to describe what I mean. Even if kids were not as "prepared" as today, they were more willing to figure things out, and ask questions to get oriented. Nowadays the school environment definitely feels more "sterile" in terms of learning, too many facts being presented and not enough games and activities that stimulate critical thinking.

[Anonymous]

I think most of us are in agreement:
It's nbd if you put your kid in 1-2 hours of math enrichment per week. It's great if your kid spends much more time doing math lessons or contests because he or she loves it and wants to. It's bad if your kid spends tons of time on math enrichment because you're forcing the kid.

Similarly, for sports, it's nbd if you put your kid in a low time commitment rec sport so the kid is getting exercise, even if the kid doesn't like it. It's great if your kid is on a high level, time consumptive travel team because the kid loves the sport and wants to do it. It's bad if you're forcing your kid to play on an intense travel team.

[Anonymous]

People assume athletes spend all their time with private coaches and it simply isn't true. Many are excellent students and also excellent athletes. Sure some do and those that do are often further behind and trying to catch up to those who have more natural talent just like in academics.

Our division 1 athlete who also graduated with a 4.0 and attends a top school had a private trainer like many adults on here to be training alone, training with 2 others for an hour is not very expensive. Not academic tutors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I think most of us are in agreement:
It's nbd if you put your kid in 1-2 hours of math enrichment per week. It's great if your kid spends much more time doing math lessons or contests because he or she loves it and wants to. It's bad if your kid spends tons of time on math enrichment because you're forcing the kid.

Similarly, for sports, it's nbd if you put your kid in a low time commitment rec sport so the kid is getting exercise, even if the kid doesn't like it. It's great if your kid is on a high level, time consumptive travel team because the kid loves the sport and wants to do it. It's bad if you're forcing your kid to play on an intense travel team.

While this may be true for some people, we hear way less vitriol about athletics.

No one is accusing travel team kids of cheating when they make the cut for varsity.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most of us are in agreement:
It's nbd if you put your kid in 1-2 hours of math enrichment per week. It's great if your kid spends much more time doing math lessons or contests because he or she loves it and wants to. It's bad if your kid spends tons of time on math enrichment because you're forcing the kid.

Similarly, for sports, it's nbd if you put your kid in a low time commitment rec sport so the kid is getting exercise, even if the kid doesn't like it. It's great if your kid is on a high level, time consumptive travel team because the kid loves the sport and wants to do it. It's bad if you're forcing your kid to play on an intense travel team.

While this may be true for some people, we hear way less vitriol about athletics.

No one is accusing travel team kids of cheating when they make the cut for varsity.

Travel team kids rarely play for their high school teams. Their travel team schedules, at that age, are too demanding and the travel coaches worry about injury.

there are plenty of folks who think the travel sports industry is out of control. There are articles written about the increased number of concussions, blown knees, tommy johns surgery and burn out. Read some of the threads in the soccer and sports forums here. The parents are crazy.

The big difference is sports in school is an extra while access to school is a right. Access to one, sports, is nice but access to the other is a necessity.

[Anonymous]

As an Asian parent with a kid who is interested in TJ, we joined a 4 or 5 week summer prep course. DC is hoping to get into TJ, but after watching some of the TJ parents, hyper focused on TJ, I was turned off and DC would not be applying for TJ.

TJ parents are all very nice people. They are just willing to sacrifice so much and crush the child's personality. They are willing to hammer the child's personality until it is forged into their ideal likeness - a STEM focused student who wins medals.

Not all Asians, I know many who are not into this. I honestly think most of these children would be much more happy if the pressure is less intense.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I think there is a world of difference between robotics, coding, math club, chess club, model United Nations and attending Mathnasium or AoPS or Russian math or any tutoring program. The clubs tend to more social and creative then tutoring classes. They still encourage the development of STEM skills but in a less formal way. The gave kids a creative outlet.

Some kids want to do Mathnasium, AoPS, or Russian math. Some kids are also much more gifted in math than your kid and need the outlet. Some kids are the same or less gifted in math than yours, but still love math and want to do more. Not all kids are like your kid, even though you persist in believing otherwise. My kid thinks that chess club and cub scouts sound like torture. My kid loves extracurricular math classes, which contrary to your assertions, teach creative problem solving and do serve as a social outlet.

You're going to be one of the people whining on here in a few years when many Asian kids are better than your child, because you think that your kid deserves to be at the top without putting in any real effort. Good luck with that.

um that's not how America works. This isn't whatever country you came from where your whole life outcome is prepping for some test.

and again the whole effort bs thing. Things like intelligence matter more here. Any worker bee factory drone can get "smart" sutdying 10 hours a week in elementary and/or middle school. Again that's not how the USA works.

p.s. I think the whole TJ thing is bs too but if this is what yall really think they may be on to something. TJ should be for people who are smart not some drone prepping constantly.

You are in for rude awakening my friend. Looks like your America is different from ours. You don't have to like it. Keep up or move inland.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:As an Asian parent with a kid who is interested in TJ, we joined a 4 or 5 week summer prep course. DC is hoping to get into TJ, but after watching some of the TJ parents, hyper focused on TJ, I was turned off and DC would not be applying for TJ.

TJ parents are all very nice people. They are just willing to sacrifice so much and crush the child's personality. They are willing to hammer the child's personality until it is forged into their ideal likeness - a STEM focused student who wins medals.

Not all Asians, I know many who are not into this. I honestly think most of these children would be much more happy if the pressure is less intense.

Summertime is precious non-school time that your kid can use to explore any or all of his/her interests or just get downtime from a tough school year. 4-5 weeks of prep during summer is an absolute waste of time.

I'm an Asian TJ parent - my kid didn't prep, and neither did a friend who also got into TJ. We know a lot of kids who did prep, and only one of them got into TJ. The best way to 'prep', especially for STEM, is to let your kid get up to Rube Goldberg shenanigans in the backyard That's what we did. If they can look back on the experience and say that they enjoyed it, then that would be time well spent. Prep courses are unlikely to leave memories like that. It might be better if you worked with him / her - then at least they will have the memory of having spent a lot of active engaged time with you.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an Asian parent with a kid who is interested in TJ, we joined a 4 or 5 week summer prep course. DC is hoping to get into TJ, but after watching some of the TJ parents, hyper focused on TJ, I was turned off and DC would not be applying for TJ.

TJ parents are all very nice people. They are just willing to sacrifice so much and crush the child's personality. They are willing to hammer the child's personality until it is forged into their ideal likeness - a STEM focused student who wins medals.

Not all Asians, I know many who are not into this. I honestly think most of these children would be much more happy if the pressure is less intense.

Summertime is precious non-school time that your kid can use to explore any or all of his/her interests or just get downtime from a tough school year. 4-5 weeks of prep during summer is an absolute waste of time.

I'm an Asian TJ parent - my kid didn't prep, and neither did a friend who also got into TJ. We know a lot of kids who did prep, and only one of them got into TJ. The best way to 'prep', especially for STEM, is to let your kid get up to Rube Goldberg shenanigans in the backyard That's what we did. If they can look back on the experience and say that they enjoyed it, then that would be time well spent. Prep courses are unlikely to leave memories like that. It might be better if you worked with him / her - then at least they will have the memory of having spent a lot of active engaged time with you.

I call BS on this. Pure BS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:As an Asian parent with a kid who is interested in TJ, we joined a 4 or 5 week summer prep course. DC is hoping to get into TJ, but after watching some of the TJ parents, hyper focused on TJ, I was turned off and DC would not be applying for TJ.

TJ parents are all very nice people. They are just willing to sacrifice so much and crush the child's personality. They are willing to hammer the child's personality until it is forged into their ideal likeness - a STEM focused student who wins medals.

Not all Asians, I know many who are not into this. I honestly think most of these children would be much more happy if the pressure is less intense.

Summertime is precious non-school time that your kid can use to explore any or all of his/her interests or just get downtime from a tough school year. 4-5 weeks of prep during summer is an absolute waste of time.

I'm an Asian TJ parent - my kid didn't prep, and neither did a friend who also got into TJ. We know a lot of kids who did prep, and only one of them got into TJ. The best way to 'prep', especially for STEM, is to let your kid get up to Rube Goldberg shenanigans in the backyard That's what we did. If they can look back on the experience and say that they enjoyed it, then that would be time well spent. Prep courses are unlikely to leave memories like that. It might be better if you worked with him / her - then at least they will have the memory of having spent a lot of active engaged time with you.

I call BS on this. Pure BS.

?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think most of us are in agreement:
It's nbd if you put your kid in 1-2 hours of math enrichment per week. It's great if your kid spends much more time doing math lessons or contests because he or she loves it and wants to. It's bad if your kid spends tons of time on math enrichment because you're forcing the kid.

Similarly, for sports, it's nbd if you put your kid in a low time commitment rec sport so the kid is getting exercise, even if the kid doesn't like it. It's great if your kid is on a high level, time consumptive travel team because the kid loves the sport and wants to do it. It's bad if you're forcing your kid to play on an intense travel team.

While this may be true for some people, we hear way less vitriol about athletics.

No one is accusing travel team kids of cheating when they make the cut for varsity.

So true. Serena Williams started tennis lessons for her 3 year old - how do the anti-enrichment posters react to that I wonder