Upper NW DC the "Suburbs"?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:We live in Upper NW and it is definitely not the suburbs.

All of upper NW was built around street car lines and most neighborhoods are very walkable to both transit and retail.

And several of the commercial corridors in Upper NW (really all of them except Wisconsin Avenue) have some fairly dense residential areas though the residential side streets are obviously mostly single family homes but even there the houses are mostly on lots that are a fraction the size of suburban lots including the lots just across the line in MD.

BTW there are many similar neighborhoods across all 4 quadrants of DC (ok not really SW DC) with single family homes immediately adjacent to higher density corridors with commercial and multi-unit buildings so NW isn't really that different from much of DC except it only has some small pockets of blocks with rowhouses which are more common in other DC neighborhoods.

Cool. We have all of that and live in MoCo, outside the Beltway.

Really - which neighborhoods in MoCo outside the beltway have all of that? The faux urbanism of King Farm doesn't count because the transit there sucks and there really isn't that much density there either though it may feel like it because the traffic is still awful.

I really don't feel like naming where I live so that you can mock it. Thanks.

Because it doesn't exist.

I know Montgomery County pretty well. The only two places that sort of come close would be close in to old town Rockville and if you count MARC service old town Gaithersburg.

If it exists then name it and it won't be mocked but as I pointed out faux urbanism doesn't count.

What you call "faux urbanism" actually encompasses some really wonderful neighborhoods. You realize DC was planned as well, right? That's why there are so many similarities in terms of the type of architecture you see in particular neighborhoods; much of the city was done as part of subdivisions.

So stop acting like DC is this organic city. It's the product of urban planning, just like the "faux urbanism" neighborhoods you look down your nose at.

You make think they are fine and we'd probably agree whatever neighborhood you are defending but strangely won't name is probably much better than most of what is found in Montgomery County.

But to re-iterate I bet your well planned suburban neighborhood still doesn't check several of the boxes that my DC neighborhood does, particularly around transit use and walk and bikeability.

And I don't understand the gripe about planning. Your suburban neighborhood probably was much more a product of planning than just about any DC neighborhood but that's really neither a good nor a bad thing but on balance it is better that neighborhoods are planned than unplanned.

So you're saying planned neighborhoods are good, but you criticize "faux urbanism"? How are those 2 things consistent with each other?

Also, you're wrong about walkability; I have sidewalks throughout my entire neighborhood. Getting to the metro requires a 10 minute bus ride from the bus stop, which is a 5 minute walk from my house.

Look you are painting us as foes here when we really aren't.

Faux urbanism is better than no urbanism at all so I'm glad King Farm or wherever you live is at least incorporating some of the good elements of city living. And yes some of these suburbs have the infrastructure to be walkable and have some connections to transit and even have some well designed retail areas that encourage walking and the bundling of trips and all of those things are good. But the truth is that walking in these places is still more of a curiosity than a way of life for most people and the retail areas (and the transit stops) are still mostly visited by people driving and are surrounded by acres of parking.

I'm a 5 minute walk from a Metrorail station that gets me downtown in 13 minutes. That same station is served by 35 bus routes, buses that take me to Georgetown, Silver Spring, Wheaton, Glen Echo etc. I can get one seat rides to locations all over the region including in the suburbs.

My neighborhood, like yours, is imperfect. But they are different. Which is fine.

If you really think walking is a curiosity in these neighborhoods, then I have to conclude you just haven't spent that much time here. That's a shame.

Also, newsflash: lots of DC residents have cars. I lived there for 10 years and know what the car usage is like. This is a city with a Walmart, for pete's sake. It ain't NYC, where truly no one (except the uber wealthy) have cars.

Of course it would help if you said where you live.

But no aside from an annual visit to King Farm for a holiday party (coming up next week FWIW) I don't get there much. But what I see when I am there is still a lot of surface parking lots and a lot of roads with a lot of cars on them though to the communities credit the roads are somewhat more urban in design and not high speed traffic gutters.

Yes there are townhouses on walkable streets comfortably within walking distance of retail and that is great.

But I don't see a lot of people walking - I see a lot of cars.

But it is great that it is an option.

As for DC residents having cars well yes they do - no one in this thread said otherwise. But DC is second only to NYC in car free households and also has a very high percentage of car light households. I think only 20% of DC households have more than 1 car. DC is also in the top 2 or 3 in the country in most non-car metrics for getting around - rates of transit use, biking to work, walking to work, car pooling etc.

Hopefully because your suburb planned for things other than people driving it measures favorably compared to the rest of the county - if true that will be a good thing for everyone.

I don't live in King Farm. Since you seem to be desperate to know: I live in Kentlands. You should check us out because our retail area is in the middle of a huge development, which includes some really cool restaurants. In fact, Kenaki Sushi is opening up another location at The Roost in DC. We just got a ramen place, and a pulled noodle place is opening soon. We have a delicious acai bowl place we go to all the time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We live in Upper NW and it is definitely not the suburbs.

All of upper NW was built around street car lines and most neighborhoods are very walkable to both transit and retail.

And several of the commercial corridors in Upper NW (really all of them except Wisconsin Avenue) have some fairly dense residential areas though the residential side streets are obviously mostly single family homes but even there the houses are mostly on lots that are a fraction the size of suburban lots including the lots just across the line in MD.

BTW there are many similar neighborhoods across all 4 quadrants of DC (ok not really SW DC) with single family homes immediately adjacent to higher density corridors with commercial and multi-unit buildings so NW isn't really that different from much of DC except it only has some small pockets of blocks with rowhouses which are more common in other DC neighborhoods.

Cool. We have all of that and live in MoCo, outside the Beltway.

Really - which neighborhoods in MoCo outside the beltway have all of that? The faux urbanism of King Farm doesn't count because the transit there sucks and there really isn't that much density there either though it may feel like it because the traffic is still awful.

I really don't feel like naming where I live so that you can mock it. Thanks.

Because it doesn't exist.

I know Montgomery County pretty well. The only two places that sort of come close would be close in to old town Rockville and if you count MARC service old town Gaithersburg.

If it exists then name it and it won't be mocked but as I pointed out faux urbanism doesn't count.

What you call "faux urbanism" actually encompasses some really wonderful neighborhoods. You realize DC was planned as well, right? That's why there are so many similarities in terms of the type of architecture you see in particular neighborhoods; much of the city was done as part of subdivisions.

So stop acting like DC is this organic city. It's the product of urban planning, just like the "faux urbanism" neighborhoods you look down your nose at.

You make think they are fine and we'd probably agree whatever neighborhood you are defending but strangely won't name is probably much better than most of what is found in Montgomery County.

But to re-iterate I bet your well planned suburban neighborhood still doesn't check several of the boxes that my DC neighborhood does, particularly around transit use and walk and bikeability.

And I don't understand the gripe about planning. Your suburban neighborhood probably was much more a product of planning than just about any DC neighborhood but that's really neither a good nor a bad thing but on balance it is better that neighborhoods are planned than unplanned.

So you're saying planned neighborhoods are good, but you criticize "faux urbanism"? How are those 2 things consistent with each other?

Also, you're wrong about walkability; I have sidewalks throughout my entire neighborhood. Getting to the metro requires a 10 minute bus ride from the bus stop, which is a 5 minute walk from my house.

Look you are painting us as foes here when we really aren't.

Faux urbanism is better than no urbanism at all so I'm glad King Farm or wherever you live is at least incorporating some of the good elements of city living. And yes some of these suburbs have the infrastructure to be walkable and have some connections to transit and even have some well designed retail areas that encourage walking and the bundling of trips and all of those things are good. But the truth is that walking in these places is still more of a curiosity than a way of life for most people and the retail areas (and the transit stops) are still mostly visited by people driving and are surrounded by acres of parking.

I'm a 5 minute walk from a Metrorail station that gets me downtown in 13 minutes. That same station is served by 35 bus routes, buses that take me to Georgetown, Silver Spring, Wheaton, Glen Echo etc. I can get one seat rides to locations all over the region including in the suburbs.

My neighborhood, like yours, is imperfect. But they are different. Which is fine.

If you really think walking is a curiosity in these neighborhoods, then I have to conclude you just haven't spent that much time here. That's a shame.

Also, newsflash: lots of DC residents have cars. I lived there for 10 years and know what the car usage is like. This is a city with a Walmart, for pete's sake. It ain't NYC, where truly no one (except the uber wealthy) have cars.

Of course it would help if you said where you live.

But no aside from an annual visit to King Farm for a holiday party (coming up next week FWIW) I don't get there much. But what I see when I am there is still a lot of surface parking lots and a lot of roads with a lot of cars on them though to the communities credit the roads are somewhat more urban in design and not high speed traffic gutters.

Yes there are townhouses on walkable streets comfortably within walking distance of retail and that is great.

But I don't see a lot of people walking - I see a lot of cars.

But it is great that it is an option.

As for DC residents having cars well yes they do - no one in this thread said otherwise. But DC is second only to NYC in car free households and also has a very high percentage of car light households. I think only 20% of DC households have more than 1 car. DC is also in the top 2 or 3 in the country in most non-car metrics for getting around - rates of transit use, biking to work, walking to work, car pooling etc.

Hopefully because your suburb planned for things other than people driving it measures favorably compared to the rest of the county - if true that will be a good thing for everyone.

I don't live in King Farm. Since you seem to be desperate to know: I live in Kentlands. You should check us out because our retail area is in the middle of a huge development, which includes some really cool restaurants. In fact, Kenaki Sushi is opening up another location at The Roost in DC. We just got a ramen place, and a pulled noodle place is opening soon. We have a delicious acai bowl place we go to all the time.

Hah - that's about a mile from where my wife grew up but truth be told I've only been to Kentlands once though I've been to Gaithersburg many times.

Look these suburban places prove that people even in the suburbs want and will utilize walkable neighborhoods and that that density facilities vibrant retail areas.

Which is great and it should be a roadmap to how all of these future places are planned because we have a lot of proof that it works and we need suburbs to be less car oriented if we are going to get out of this global warming mess we are in.

But making transit work to the point that it is highly utilized in these places is a real challenge when they aren't connected to one seat rides to dense job centers.

[Anonymous]

"Hah - that's about a mile from where my wife grew up but truth be told I've only been to Kentlands once though I've been to Gaithersburg many times.

Look these suburban places prove that people even in the suburbs want and will utilize walkable neighborhoods and that that density facilities vibrant retail areas.

Which is great and it should be a roadmap to how all of these future places are planned because we have a lot of proof that it works and we need suburbs to be less car oriented if we are going to get out of this global warming mess we are in.

But making transit work to the point that it is highly utilized in these places is a real challenge when they aren't connected to one seat rides to dense job centers."

Not everyone works in DC. However, one of my neighbors does and really enjoys her commute.

Of course, I would take public transit to my job, but even when I lived in DC, it was a PITA because our public transportation system in the DMV sucks. I ended up driving after the bus schedule was cut to the point where it was impossible.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’ve always considered the boundaries of DC = the city, and outside the boundaries = the suburbs, even if there are suburbs with higher density than parts of DC (eg Rosslyn vs Brookland)

You can’t really define it based on walkability or having a yard, unless you plan to argue that all of LA, Dallas, Atlanta etc are suburbs. It’s about city boundaries vs metro area.

That's a very reasonable definition.

But, when some people make distinctions between what life is like in the suburbs v the city, that definition becomes pretty meaningless in lots of cases, especially around here where there are a number of areas outside the city that are denser and more walkable than areas in the city. But, most of these DCUM debate are pretty meaningless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Hah - that's about a mile from where my wife grew up but truth be told I've only been to Kentlands once though I've been to Gaithersburg many times.

Look these suburban places prove that people even in the suburbs want and will utilize walkable neighborhoods and that that density facilities vibrant retail areas.

Which is great and it should be a roadmap to how all of these future places are planned because we have a lot of proof that it works and we need suburbs to be less car oriented if we are going to get out of this global warming mess we are in.

But making transit work to the point that it is highly utilized in these places is a real challenge when they aren't connected to one seat rides to dense job centers."

Not everyone works in DC. However, one of my neighbors does and really enjoys her commute.

Of course, I would take public transit to my job, but even when I lived in DC, it was a PITA because our public transportation system in the DMV sucks. I ended up driving after the bus schedule was cut to the point where it was impossible.

That is definitely true.

But a lot of this regions jobs are in the core and on transit lines and it appears that more of those jobs will be in the future - witness Marriott relocating to Bethesda and all of the densification going on there and once the Purple and Silver Lines are finished even more of the regions job centers will be well served by high quality transit.

If you can even get one of the two (presumed) working halves of a couple living in the suburbs on public transit to work every day and if that enables those couples to go from 2 car households to one car households that saves those households a lot of money and reduces driving by a lot and that is a big victory for the region.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:"Hah - that's about a mile from where my wife grew up but truth be told I've only been to Kentlands once though I've been to Gaithersburg many times.

Look these suburban places prove that people even in the suburbs want and will utilize walkable neighborhoods and that that density facilities vibrant retail areas.

Which is great and it should be a roadmap to how all of these future places are planned because we have a lot of proof that it works and we need suburbs to be less car oriented if we are going to get out of this global warming mess we are in.

But making transit work to the point that it is highly utilized in these places is a real challenge when they aren't connected to one seat rides to dense job centers."

Not everyone works in DC. However, one of my neighbors does and really enjoys her commute.

Of course, I would take public transit to my job, but even when I lived in DC, it was a PITA because our public transportation system in the DMV sucks. I ended up driving after the bus schedule was cut to the point where it was impossible.

That is definitely true.

But a lot of this regions jobs are in the core and on transit lines and it appears that more of those jobs will be in the future - witness Marriott relocating to Bethesda and all of the densification going on there and once the Purple and Silver Lines are finished even more of the regions job centers will be well served by high quality transit.

If you can even get one of the two (presumed) working halves of a couple living in the suburbs on public transit to work every day and if that enables those couples to go from 2 car households to one car households that saves those households a lot of money and reduces driving by a lot and that is a big victory for the region.

Well then, you'd be happy to know my husband works from home.

I agree, though -- we live in a dense neighborhood in part for the environmental benefits. I hate that I have to drive to my job, but at least he doesn't and we don't have to use a car for grocery shopping or family outings.

[Anonymous]

Yes CCDC is the suburbs.

So is Brooklyn

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes CCDC is the suburbs.

So is Brooklyn

And Queens!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes CCDC is the suburbs.

So is Brooklyn

And Queens!

Queens feels like the suburbs. Most of Brooklyn does not until you get to Sheepshead Bay.

[Anonymous]

I’ve lived in upper NW, Columbia Heights, and now the real suburbs.

Always considered upper NW to be the suburbs. It’s basically identical to the “real” suburbs. Columbia Heights obviously was not.

[Anonymous]

Yes, CCDC is suburban, zero difference from CCMD or Bethesda. I assume it's not the same suburban experience as someone in Great Falls or Clarksburg or Loudon, but it's definitely urban living. Cmon, OP, you can't really be surprised by this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Yes, CCDC is suburban, zero difference from CCMD or Bethesda. I assume it's not the same suburban experience as someone in Great Falls or Clarksburg or Loudon, but it's definitely urban living. Cmon, OP, you can't really be surprised by this.

Sorry, definitely NOT urban living.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, CCDC is suburban, zero difference from CCMD or Bethesda. I assume it's not the same suburban experience as someone in Great Falls or Clarksburg or Loudon, but it's definitely urban living. Cmon, OP, you can't really be surprised by this.

Sorry, definitely NOT urban living.

Yup. When we were looking for a place to live, we rejected the district because it was either places in cooler parts of the city that have terrible schools, or places in upper NW with decent schools but the lifestyle seemed like it was essentially suburban. What’s the point of paying that much money to be 15 min from downtown as opposed to 30 on the metro? That’s why we moved to a walkable MoCo neighborhood.

[Anonymous]

what is king farm

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Yes, CCDC is suburban, zero difference from CCMD or Bethesda. I assume it's not the same suburban experience as someone in Great Falls or Clarksburg or Loudon, but it's definitely urban living. Cmon, OP, you can't really be surprised by this.

Sorry, definitely NOT urban living.

Yup. When we were looking for a place to live, we rejected the district because it was either places in cooler parts of the city that have terrible schools, or places in upper NW with decent schools but the lifestyle seemed like it was essentially suburban. What’s the point of paying that much money to be 15 min from downtown as opposed to 30 on the metro? That’s why we moved to a walkable MoCo neighborhood.

No that was demographic destiny