St Anselm’s Abbey School — an AP mill?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Question (perhaps for OP):

What is a AP mill?
What distinguishes it from a school that merely offers many AP courses?
What is wrong with a heavy AP courseload?

Haven't really heard about this issue before. Always thought AP standards provided some uniformity across schools, in addition to the opportunity for college credit.

There are a lot of issues regarding a heavy AP focus and regarding the College Board; that has been discussed on DCUM, in WaPo, and in dozens of publications and forums, plenty of times over the the last couple years. Many people love the AP model while many don’t. As mentioned earlier, some top area private’s are moving away from AP’s. I know they’re still big in the competitive public schools, yet this discussion is not about a public school nor is it an indictment against SAAS. It’s legitimate question that has no ill will behind it.

A quick google search shows:

This from: Potomac, Holton, G-Town Day, Landon, Maret, NCS, st Albany’s, and Sidwell
https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-schools-got-rid-of-ap-courses-heres-why/2018/06/18/24018654-7316-11e8-9780-b1dd6a09b549_story.html?outputType=amp

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/06/25/defections-ap-program-raise-question-whether-it-still-has-admissions

More students are taking AP exams, but research don’t know if it helps them.
https://chalkbeat.org/posts/us/2018/08/03/more-students-are-taking-ap-exams-but-researchers-dont-know-if-that-helps-them/

https://news.stanford.edu/2013/04/22/advanced-placement-courses-032213/


https://blog.prepscholar.com/the-5-worst-problems-with-college-board-ap-program

https://highschool.latimes.com/fairmont-preparatory-academy/the-issues-with-ap-exams/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm not PP, but a curriculum where the content is at least as rigorous/demanding as AP-type classes but not taught around a standardized test (i.e., more freedom to explore fewer topics in-depth than a shallow breadth) is preferable for my kids.

I don't think you need to worry about that. Given the kind of boy who chooses SAAS, they do not need to sacrifice depth for breadth in the AP classes they offer. They have plenty of time to do both. They also do not, in my experience, "teach around a standardized test," but the boys do well on it. For example, there are something like 16 different versions of AP Lit there, and, while putting Genghis Kahn on trial is probably not on the AP World History test, it is a unit in the class. Also, the boys I know who are guided to look at SAAS are not looking to explore fewer topics, and they wouldn't settle for shallow understanding; they are excited to get to sink their brains into more.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Question (perhaps for OP):

What is a AP mill?
What distinguishes it from a school that merely offers many AP courses?
What is wrong with a heavy AP courseload?

Haven't really heard about this issue before. Always thought AP standards provided some uniformity across schools, in addition to the opportunity for college credit.

There are a lot of issues regarding a heavy AP focus and regarding the College Board; that has been discussed on DCUM, in WaPo, and in dozens of publications and forums, plenty of times over the the last couple years. Many people love the AP model while many don’t. As mentioned earlier, some top area private’s are moving away from AP’s. I know they’re still big in the competitive public schools, yet this discussion is not about a public school nor is it an indictment against SAAS. It’s legitimate question that has no ill will behind it.

A quick google search shows:

This from: Potomac, Holton, G-Town Day, Landon, Maret, NCS, st Albany’s, and Sidwell
https://beta.washingtonpost.com/opinions/our-schools-got-rid-of-ap-courses-heres-why/2018/06/18/24018654-7316-11e8-9780-b1dd6a09b549_story.html?outputType=amp

https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2018/06/25/defections-ap-program-raise-question-whether-it-still-has-admissions

More students are taking AP exams, but research don’t know if it helps them.
https://chalkbeat.org/posts/us/2018/08/03/more-students-are-taking-ap-exams-but-researchers-dont-know-if-that-helps-them/

https://news.stanford.edu/2013/04/22/advanced-placement-courses-032213/


https://blog.prepscholar.com/the-5-worst-problems-with-college-board-ap-program

https://highschool.latimes.com/fairmont-preparatory-academy/the-issues-with-ap-exams/

Taking a look at "the 5 worst problems" -- none are an issue at SAAS.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Question (perhaps for OP):

What is a AP mill?
What distinguishes it from a school that merely offers many AP courses?
What is wrong with a heavy AP courseload?

Haven't really heard about this issue before. Always thought AP standards provided some uniformity across schools, in addition to the opportunity for college credit.

There are a lot of issues regarding a heavy AP focus and regarding the College Board; that has been discussed on DCUM, in WaPo, and in dozens of publications and forums, plenty of times over the the last couple years. Many people love the AP model while many don’t. As mentioned earlier, some top area private’s are moving away from AP’s. I know they’re still big in the competitive public schools, yet this discussion is not about a public school nor is it an indictment against SAAS. It’s legitimate question that has no ill will behind it.

Thanks for pointing out that it's been discussed at length elsewhere. Can't somebody save a poor ignoramus some time and research and maybe give a back of the envelope sketch of the issues with heavy AP emphasis?

[Anonymous]

Someone did the research and pulled it up. Read the articles linked above, or else you're a lazy ignoramus too.

[Anonymous]

, the various articles seem to suggest that AP courses involve a huge amount of material, so they are hard. "Regular" schools have jumped on AP to look better, but impose no standards on who can take AP, resulting in students not suited to the courses becoming stressed and doing poorly on the exams. Teachers can't manipulate the coursework to fit their own agenda and there are no participation trophies, just objective comparison between students. The tests drain resources from more average students, and in isolation (as opposed to being viewed as part of a coherent and comprehensive program) might not have all the depth a specialized "selected topics" class would. Elite schools want to move away from AP, because if everybody has AP, what's the point of going to the elite school, and they need a new competitive distinction. Some colleges see an increasing number of kids coming in able to finish in three years and are concerned about losing that fourth year of income.

Sounds like AP is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, identifying the highest performing students and standardizing subject matter so performance can be compared across schools. That threatens certain social engineering efforts and vested interests.

[Anonymous]

And standardization in education is a good thing...why?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:And standardization in education is a good thing...why?

Little things, like teaching the proper use of area units in square meters, not meters squared. Kind of like making sure green means go in all 50 states... things just work better that way!

[Anonymous]

Mic drop.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Mic drop.

Mic drop? Really?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Thanks for pointing out that it's been discussed at length elsewhere. Can't somebody save a poor ignoramus some time and research and maybe give a back of the envelope sketch of the issues with heavy AP emphasis?

At a top tier college, the only AP classes that resemble actual college courses are the foreign languages, calculus BC and physics C. (I don't know about the comp sci classes) AP Bio and Chem don't cover first semester college courses in full. The content of the other AP classes - English language, English literature, US history, US government, comparative government, world history, statistics, calculus AB, environmental science, human geography - are too shallow to pass faculty/provost standards. All of it is necessary but just not sufficient and I would prefer DC to develop stronger habits of mind and secure foundations and learn college-level material from actual top tier college faculty.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:To what extent is the move away from AP driven by a desire to be "different " in an educational environment where AP courses have penetrated deeply into public schools, albeit in some cases with very poor results in terms of ultimate SP test scores and/or a desire to move course content into a more "progressive " direction than AP guidelines would allow?

Yes, I think it is this (as I said up above). I teach AP courses in another environment and am a Big 3 parent. Even though as another PP stated, there is freedom within the AP curricular expectations, it DOES put a lot of time pressure on teachers, especially if they want to cover other things. So, am guessing that teachers drove the decision to abandon APs rather than parents and students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:, the various articles seem to suggest that AP courses involve a huge amount of material, so they are hard. "Regular" schools have jumped on AP to look better, but impose no standards on who can take AP, resulting in students not suited to the courses becoming stressed and doing poorly on the exams. Teachers can't manipulate the coursework to fit their own agenda and there are no participation trophies, just objective comparison between students. The tests drain resources from more average students, and in isolation (as opposed to being viewed as part of a coherent and comprehensive program) might not have all the depth a specialized "selected topics" class would. Elite schools want to move away from AP, because if everybody has AP, what's the point of going to the elite school, and they need a new competitive distinction. Some colleges see an increasing number of kids coming in able to finish in three years and are concerned about losing that fourth year of income.

Sounds like AP is doing exactly what it is supposed to do, identifying the highest performing students and standardizing subject matter so performance can be compared across schools. That threatens certain social engineering efforts and vested interests.

This is absolutely NOT true. I teach AP courses and some parents would probably fall over if they read the teacher forum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Question (perhaps for OP):

What is a AP mill?
What distinguishes it from a school that merely offers many AP courses?
What is wrong with a heavy AP courseload?

Haven't really heard about this issue before. Always thought AP standards provided some uniformity across schools, in addition to the opportunity for college credit.

There are a lot of issues regarding a heavy AP focus and regarding the College Board; that has been discussed on DCUM, in WaPo, and in dozens of publications and forums, plenty of times over the the last couple years. Many people love the AP model while many don’t. As mentioned earlier, some top area private’s are moving away from AP’s. I know they’re still big in the competitive public schools, yet this discussion is not about a public school nor is it an indictment against SAAS. It’s legitimate question that has no ill will behind it.

If you are worried that the classes are mind-numbingly dull, that the teachers feel they have no freedom to really take the time to go off topic and explore where the student's thoughts take them, that the teachers are always yelling at the students that they have to do more faster, then don't worry. SAAS is just the opposite of that. It is a quirky, intellectual place where these nerdy students love debating philosophy and ethics for hours on end. They also have a lot of fun.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Different question: is there something similar to st anselm’s for girls? I think it would be a good fit for my son but I don’t like the idea of sending my boy to a private and sending the girls public.

This questions is asked every few months. The answer is no if you are talking about Catholic schools.

What about non-catholic schools? I’m catholic but don’t really care whether my kids go to a catholic school.

Rigorous Private (Non Catholic School) Options for Girls: Potomac, Holton, G-Town Day, Maret, NCS, and Sidwell

Some are Single Sex (Holton and NCS), the rest are not. All are phasing out APs. All are "selective" and more expensive St Anselm's.

There is no true Girls equivalent to St Anselm's.