Compacted math selection - when and what MAP-M score?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My 4th grader had map-m scores in the 240s last year. Her school doesn't even have compacted math. Lots of her friends score similarly, and they do eureka with the "math+" group. I look over her homework and sometimes there are mistakes and serious gaps in her understanding. The school say they will all still go to AIM in 6th, so what does it matter? We do enrichment with Beast Academy.

People really put too much stock in these exams. It's ONE test. And not a particularly good one at that. It doesn't actually test how they think or logically break down problems.

-Parent with graduate degree in applied math.

That might or might not be true. If your child is not exposed to the higher level math, her scores will not increase as much. Do you know what the cutoff is for AIM?

typically 240 in the past

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very hard to generalize whether any particular child will have a "cake walk" So much depends on the teacher's talent and style.

I remember when my 3rd grader scored around 250 at age 8. I thought it might be challenging for them. It wasn't. They felt compacted was super easy and wish they could've skipped it. I think the first unit at the beginning of 4th was a review of the multiplication tables. In 5th they covered adding and subtracting fractions with different denominators. They had mastered this simply by doing Khan academy during math in 3rd grade. I think the teacher let them do this since they knew the kid understood what was otherwise being taught. It was really great to have a teacher like that.

I wish MCPS stopped with the one size fits all approach to teaching and tried to meet kids where they are.

Very few school’s are going to do this including private. Just imagine what this would take for a teacher and class of 24 kids. A teacher could easily have to prepare 5 different plans for each subject. Its already hard enough just to ensure that math and reading groups are getting adequate time, and mostly doesn’t happen for high fliers until upper elementary. If there were more Paras on intervention specialist maybe.

Perhaps, but right now they don't even try and there's a lot of room for improvement. They could easily just put like kids in group together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very hard to generalize whether any particular child will have a "cake walk" So much depends on the teacher's talent and style.

I remember when my 3rd grader scored around 250 at age 8. I thought it might be challenging for them. It wasn't. They felt compacted was super easy and wish they could've skipped it. I think the first unit at the beginning of 4th was a review of the multiplication tables. In 5th they covered adding and subtracting fractions with different denominators. They had mastered this simply by doing Khan academy during math in 3rd grade. I think the teacher let them do this since they knew the kid understood what was otherwise being taught. It was really great to have a teacher like that.

I wish MCPS stopped with the one size fits all approach to teaching and tried to meet kids where they are.

Very few school’s are going to do this including private. Just imagine what this would take for a teacher and class of 24 kids. A teacher could easily have to prepare 5 different plans for each subject. Its already hard enough just to ensure that math and reading groups are getting adequate time, and mostly doesn’t happen for high fliers until upper elementary. If there were more Paras on intervention specialist maybe.

Perhaps, but right now they don't even try and there's a lot of room for improvement. They could easily just put like kids in group together.

What do you think reading and math groups are for? Or compacted math and ELC classes? Or magnet programs? Saying they aren’t trying is ridiculous. You can say you want more or for it to be implemented differently or want improvement, but they can’t be accused of not trying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very hard to generalize whether any particular child will have a "cake walk" So much depends on the teacher's talent and style.

I remember when my 3rd grader scored around 250 at age 8. I thought it might be challenging for them. It wasn't. They felt compacted was super easy and wish they could've skipped it. I think the first unit at the beginning of 4th was a review of the multiplication tables. In 5th they covered adding and subtracting fractions with different denominators. They had mastered this simply by doing Khan academy during math in 3rd grade. I think the teacher let them do this since they knew the kid understood what was otherwise being taught. It was really great to have a teacher like that.

I wish MCPS stopped with the one size fits all approach to teaching and tried to meet kids where they are.

Very few school’s are going to do this including private. Just imagine what this would take for a teacher and class of 24 kids. A teacher could easily have to prepare 5 different plans for each subject. Its already hard enough just to ensure that math and reading groups are getting adequate time, and mostly doesn’t happen for high fliers until upper elementary. If there were more Paras on intervention specialist maybe.

Perhaps, but right now they don't even try and there's a lot of room for improvement. They could easily just put like kids in group together.

What do you think reading and math groups are for? Or compacted math and ELC classes? Or magnet programs? Saying they aren’t trying is ridiculous. You can say you want more or for it to be implemented differently or want improvement, but they can’t be accused of not trying.

Agree, I think some people are either on autopilot or don't actually have kids in MCPS. I want improvements, but it's ridiculous to say they aren't trying. My elementary kid even read a whole book with their reading group in a non ELC school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very hard to generalize whether any particular child will have a "cake walk" So much depends on the teacher's talent and style.

I remember when my 3rd grader scored around 250 at age 8. I thought it might be challenging for them. It wasn't. They felt compacted was super easy and wish they could've skipped it. I think the first unit at the beginning of 4th was a review of the multiplication tables. In 5th they covered adding and subtracting fractions with different denominators. They had mastered this simply by doing Khan academy during math in 3rd grade. I think the teacher let them do this since they knew the kid understood what was otherwise being taught. It was really great to have a teacher like that.

I wish MCPS stopped with the one size fits all approach to teaching and tried to meet kids where they are.

Very few school’s are going to do this including private. Just imagine what this would take for a teacher and class of 24 kids. A teacher could easily have to prepare 5 different plans for each subject. Its already hard enough just to ensure that math and reading groups are getting adequate time, and mostly doesn’t happen for high fliers until upper elementary. If there were more Paras on intervention specialist maybe.

Perhaps, but right now they don't even try and there's a lot of room for improvement. They could easily just put like kids in group together.

What do you think reading and math groups are for? Or compacted math and ELC classes? Or magnet programs? Saying they aren’t trying is ridiculous. You can say you want more or for it to be implemented differently or want improvement, but they can’t be accused of not trying.

THere are no groups in compacted math. It's one size fits all as the poster stated.

[Anonymous]

My DD’s school has no compact math. She earn high score but her school says they don’t have it. This is not fair to her and her classmates.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very hard to generalize whether any particular child will have a "cake walk" So much depends on the teacher's talent and style.

I remember when my 3rd grader scored around 250 at age 8. I thought it might be challenging for them. It wasn't. They felt compacted was super easy and wish they could've skipped it. I think the first unit at the beginning of 4th was a review of the multiplication tables. In 5th they covered adding and subtracting fractions with different denominators. They had mastered this simply by doing Khan academy during math in 3rd grade. I think the teacher let them do this since they knew the kid understood what was otherwise being taught. It was really great to have a teacher like that.

I wish MCPS stopped with the one size fits all approach to teaching and tried to meet kids where they are.

Very few school’s are going to do this including private. Just imagine what this would take for a teacher and class of 24 kids. A teacher could easily have to prepare 5 different plans for each subject. Its already hard enough just to ensure that math and reading groups are getting adequate time, and mostly doesn’t happen for high fliers until upper elementary. If there were more Paras on intervention specialist maybe.

I agree this is hard to do when there is an idea of directly teaching certain content to different students on different pacing schedules. But not if instruction is student driven through a platform like KhanAcademy with the teacher to monitor and support as needed. It’s not a new idea. During ES in the 80s for grades 4-6 I was in a class where students all worked independently on all of their subjects using textbooks and station resources. Met with the teacher once a week to plan assignments to complete, but worked at my own pace. I got a lot of math done…

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very hard to generalize whether any particular child will have a "cake walk" So much depends on the teacher's talent and style.

I remember when my 3rd grader scored around 250 at age 8. I thought it might be challenging for them. It wasn't. They felt compacted was super easy and wish they could've skipped it. I think the first unit at the beginning of 4th was a review of the multiplication tables. In 5th they covered adding and subtracting fractions with different denominators. They had mastered this simply by doing Khan academy during math in 3rd grade. I think the teacher let them do this since they knew the kid understood what was otherwise being taught. It was really great to have a teacher like that.

I wish MCPS stopped with the one size fits all approach to teaching and tried to meet kids where they are.

Very few school’s are going to do this including private. Just imagine what this would take for a teacher and class of 24 kids. A teacher could easily have to prepare 5 different plans for each subject. Its already hard enough just to ensure that math and reading groups are getting adequate time, and mostly doesn’t happen for high fliers until upper elementary. If there were more Paras on intervention specialist maybe.

Perhaps, but right now they don't even try and there's a lot of room for improvement. They could easily just put like kids in group together.

What do you think reading and math groups are for? Or compacted math and ELC classes? Or magnet programs? Saying they aren’t trying is ridiculous. You can say you want more or for it to be implemented differently or want improvement, but they can’t be accused of not trying.

THere are no groups in compacted math. It's one size fits all as the poster stated.

. Becuase compacted math is the grouping. There are other students not in compacted math.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:It's very hard to generalize whether any particular child will have a "cake walk" So much depends on the teacher's talent and style.

I remember when my 3rd grader scored around 250 at age 8. I thought it might be challenging for them. It wasn't. They felt compacted was super easy and wish they could've skipped it. I think the first unit at the beginning of 4th was a review of the multiplication tables. In 5th they covered adding and subtracting fractions with different denominators. They had mastered this simply by doing Khan academy during math in 3rd grade. I think the teacher let them do this since they knew the kid understood what was otherwise being taught. It was really great to have a teacher like that.

I wish MCPS stopped with the one size fits all approach to teaching and tried to meet kids where they are.

Very few school’s are going to do this including private. Just imagine what this would take for a teacher and class of 24 kids. A teacher could easily have to prepare 5 different plans for each subject. Its already hard enough just to ensure that math and reading groups are getting adequate time, and mostly doesn’t happen for high fliers until upper elementary. If there were more Paras on intervention specialist maybe.

Perhaps, but right now they don't even try and there's a lot of room for improvement. They could easily just put like kids in group together.

What do you think reading and math groups are for? Or compacted math and ELC classes? Or magnet programs? Saying they aren’t trying is ridiculous. You can say you want more or for it to be implemented differently or want improvement, but they can’t be accused of not trying.

THere are no groups in compacted math. It's one size fits all as the poster stated.

. Becuase compacted math is the grouping. There are other students not in compacted math.

I get it it's a group of 30 kids without other groups! Cool! Okay I was kidding the PP was right this is one size fits all.

[Anonymous]

There are enrichmemt options within the CM curriculum. It is up to the school to ensure the teachers are trained in the enrichment model and up to the teachers to evaluate the individual student need for enrichment module by module (and then to address that need with the tools provided).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are enrichmemt options within the CM curriculum. It is up to the school to ensure the teachers are trained in the enrichment model and up to the teachers to evaluate the individual student need for enrichment module by module (and then to address that need with the tools provided).

At our school at least that never happened. I'm curious about these schools that allow some kids to skip some or all of compacted and opt into AIM In 5th? How does that work?

[Anonymous]

The MAP score wouldn't matter as much if MCPS hadn't kept relying on it as a (perhaps the most) critical measure for placement. With no CogAT (or the like), they have no measure of underlying ability, and, as prior posters mentioned, exposure to the material, either via an accelerated class (which requires placement in the first place) or with outside tutoring, becomes more important than having a capability/need to stretch. There seems to have been a shift from a more flexible heuristic to more stringent cutoffs, as well, though in-school course placement has the advantage (and danger) of principal discretion, whereas magnet program lottery qualification does not.

Elementary schools that made the decision this past year not to offer Compacted Math were asked to evaluate 5th graders to determine who might be ready for AIM (or just Math 7), despite missing the 6th grade curriculum. It's uncertain what extra work (e.g., over the summer) will be expected of them. I believe all schools are expected to return to offering CM one way or other this coming year.

We're still in learning recovery for another year+, per the original plan to counter math learning loss from spring 2020 and the 2020-21 school year, and their focus has been on that. They really need to have a better way of identifying student ability and ensuring that the associated need gets addressed, no matter what school or cohort is in play.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are enrichmemt options within the CM curriculum. It is up to the school to ensure the teachers are trained in the enrichment model and up to the teachers to evaluate the individual student need for enrichment module by module (and then to address that need with the tools provided).

At our school at least that never happened. I'm curious about these schools that allow some kids to skip some or all of compacted and opt into AIM In 5th? How does that work?

My understanding is that a bunch of parents get together, march into the principal's office and demand it, waving around the scores and noting the material that would be skipped has been/will be covered by outside tutoring.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I don't have information about cutoffs. But I will say that at the end of my kid's 3rd grade year, she was designated as 'borderline' for Compacted, and I was asked to have a conversation with the administration about readiness. I went into the meeting assuming it would be better for her to be in the regular course so she would master the material/not be behind others but then I learned that 60% of kids in our school were in compacted and I decided to put her into compacted.

The next two years (4th and 5th) her MAP-M scores skyrocketed-- from like high 70th percentile in 3rd (whatever the 'borderline' score was) to 90s in 4th and 5th (and onward--she is now in 7th).

What I learned is this. The MAP-M score is not about natural talent in math. It's about what you have been taught in math. In third grade, she wasn't in the top math group, and her group went more slowly so when she went into MAP-M, more of the material was unfamiliar. When she went into Compacted, she was taught math at an accelerated pace, so when she went into MAP-M, more of the material was stuff she'd been taught.

It may be that MAP-M is the best diagnostic we have, but if you're considering this choice for your kid, recognize that there is a chicken-and-egg problem. Kids who are identified early (second and third grade) for informal acceleration will always do better on the diagnostic for later acceleration.

I'd imagine this may be a particular problem for kids who are young in their grade because they may have been slower to learn in the very early grades based on lack of 'readiness' from being younger than peers. May also be a problem for minorities due to unconscious bias. My kid is in both categories, and putting her into Compacted was the best thing we did-- she has had high As all through, including in 7th grade Algebra, and MAPs continue to be in the 90s. But the school and we (parents) almost didn't put her on that path based on borderline MAP scores at end of third grade.

This is very true. Its all about exposure to material. If you supplement at home, it also can give higher scores.

I agree except there are some, very few, children who can guess at the more complicated problems based on previous knowledge. I had a child many years ago in my class extrapolate answers to problems in an enrichment problems I gave.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:If your kid is in the 3rd grade and score in the 250s in the winter score, how possible is it to request them to go to compacted math 5/6?

I doubt the school would consider having a student skip the entire 4th grade math curriculum as well as half the 5th grade curriculum. At our school, 4th and 5th graders don’t have math at the same time, so it wouldn’t be possible.

Compacted math is in 4th grade so if your 3rd grade MAP score is that high, more than likely they will be in compacted math automatically and if not, you can always request it and see what they say.

They will not jump your kid over 4/5 compacted math as its not just facts but the strategies and other stuff and 5/6 math is for 5th graders. No need to rush it.

There is one school that did this for an entire class in mcps, and the kids seem to be doing fine. That said, I wouldn't necessary do it for my kid either but just curious at what map-m score does a child need to hit before there is consideration to skip an entire year.

That is a school where the students generally take advanced math after school and on weekends. They literally already had equivalent of math 4/5, maybe more.

Typically
220+ in 3rd for compacted 4/5
240+ in 5th for AIM
250+ in 5th to be jumped into Algebra at schools like Frost (most schools won't do this)

One of my kids scored 250+ at the beginning of 3rd, they took regular compacted. They were bored and complained a lot but are doing fine.