If you left biglaw as an associate

[Anonymous]

What percentage of associates who stay at big law firms do you think get pushed out vs. make partner? I'm talking about those who are working the long hours and weekends. DH is in law school now so just asking to be prepared.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:What percentage of associates who stay at big law firms do you think get pushed out vs. make partner? I'm talking about those who are working the long hours and weekends. DH is in law school now so just asking to be prepared.

At least 90% get pushed out or leave. At my old firm not a single person in my entering class made partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What percentage of associates who stay at big law firms do you think get pushed out vs. make partner? I'm talking about those who are working the long hours and weekends. DH is in law school now so just asking to be prepared.

At least 90% get pushed out or leave. At my old firm not a single person in my entering class made partner.

But for those who stay to the 9-10 year mark?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:What percentage of associates who stay at big law firms do you think get pushed out vs. make partner? I'm talking about those who are working the long hours and weekends. DH is in law school now so just asking to be prepared.

At least 90% get pushed out or leave. At my old firm not a single person in my entering class made partner.

But for those who stay to the 9-10 year mark?

While some people choose to leave others are pushed out before the 9-10 year mark and if enough people don't leave by choice the firm will push more people out. Your DH has a less than 10% chance of making partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My BFF accomplished what I think you're trying to do (DH and I were also big firm lawyers leaving in our 5th yrs and like the PP above -- left with the type of NW 18:09 is describing).

OTOH my BFF -- stayed in firm life until yr 8-9 when she was pushed out bc of not making partner. Left with a NW of 3/4 of a million. She had law school loans but they weren't huge as far as loans go -- probably 75-100k. Staying until year 8 was beneficial bc bonuses become much larger in later years, though you have to be willing to stay and work 24-7 bc firms tend to push out a lot of people before the can even get past the mid level yrs. She also got into investing in a big way in her 5th-6th yrs so she was able to grow her NW that way. And let's be honest a lot of this is how you want to live and work. For my BFF -- lived in a nice area but a very normal/not lavish apartment bc she was only going there to sleep and shower; she took maybe 2 vacations in 8 yrs -- both to Florida staying at Hiltons. But for her, she didn't feel like she was missing out by not vacationing in Europe or getting a bigger apt (this was in NYC - houses aren't an option) bc she honestly lived to work.

She was really down after she didn't make partner and was told to go -- she didn't secure a job before leaving, didn't look for work for like a yr, and as her parents/friends were getting worried about what she'd do financially -- she then let it be known that she wasn't worried due how much she had amassed. 2 yrs later, she has the kind of 150k job that you mention, and I don't get the sense she's financially concerned. I have to imagine this combo of going the distance on the associate path, saving, maximizing via investing, and frugal-ish living isn't super common though. Other than her, I've never heard of other associates feeling like they are "set" when they leave. DH and I certainly weren't, nor were our other mutual friends from what we can tell.

I'm in your bff's situation with probably a bit more NW. 7-8th year at biglaw now. I am also passionate about FIRE (financial independence/retire early). For me, buying properties helped propel my NW significantly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My BFF accomplished what I think you're trying to do (DH and I were also big firm lawyers leaving in our 5th yrs and like the PP above -- left with the type of NW 18:09 is describing).

OTOH my BFF -- stayed in firm life until yr 8-9 when she was pushed out bc of not making partner. Left with a NW of 3/4 of a million. She had law school loans but they weren't huge as far as loans go -- probably 75-100k. Staying until year 8 was beneficial bc bonuses become much larger in later years, though you have to be willing to stay and work 24-7 bc firms tend to push out a lot of people before the can even get past the mid level yrs. She also got into investing in a big way in her 5th-6th yrs so she was able to grow her NW that way. And let's be honest a lot of this is how you want to live and work. For my BFF -- lived in a nice area but a very normal/not lavish apartment bc she was only going there to sleep and shower; she took maybe 2 vacations in 8 yrs -- both to Florida staying at Hiltons. But for her, she didn't feel like she was missing out by not vacationing in Europe or getting a bigger apt (this was in NYC - houses aren't an option) bc she honestly lived to work.

She was really down after she didn't make partner and was told to go -- she didn't secure a job before leaving, didn't look for work for like a yr, and as her parents/friends were getting worried about what she'd do financially -- she then let it be known that she wasn't worried due how much she had amassed. 2 yrs later, she has the kind of 150k job that you mention, and I don't get the sense she's financially concerned. I have to imagine this combo of going the distance on the associate path, saving, maximizing via investing, and frugal-ish living isn't super common though. Other than her, I've never heard of other associates feeling like they are "set" when they leave. DH and I certainly weren't, nor were our other mutual friends from what we can tell.

I'm in your bff's situation with probably a bit more NW. 7-8th year at biglaw now. I am also passionate about FIRE (financial independence/retire early). For me, buying properties helped propel my NW significantly.

Yep my BFF has jumped on the FIRE train as well and while she's more of a market investor than real estate -- I believe she has her eyes on investment properties as well. You 2 sound similar.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:^Kids change the game entirely -- because you're making daycare or nanny payments and sometimes both if you have extremely long hours.

The investments vs. loans thing is definitely an issue. Most of my biglaw peers prioritized getting the loans paid off ASAP -- usually that meant putting little/nothing into 401ks, having minimal liquid savings, and having NO other investment accounts. This is despite the fact that we graduated at a time when prevailing student loan rates were around 3% -- and the market was/has been returning far more than that. But people tend to prioritize it even if it isn't a financially savvy move bc you can make more in the market than your borrowing rate -- bc they just want to be DONE with loans. It's a mental thing that a lot of lawyers buy into.

I get why having kids would delay things. But for 20 something singles, the option shouldn't be (or at least wasn't for me) either paying down loans or maxing 401k unless they're living large otherwise. I maxed out my 401k since I was first eligible and through $$ at my law school debt whenever I could (sometimes the entire amount of my bonus since 401k was already maxed out with regular paychecks).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Kids change the game entirely -- because you're making daycare or nanny payments and sometimes both if you have extremely long hours.

The investments vs. loans thing is definitely an issue. Most of my biglaw peers prioritized getting the loans paid off ASAP -- usually that meant putting little/nothing into 401ks, having minimal liquid savings, and having NO other investment accounts. This is despite the fact that we graduated at a time when prevailing student loan rates were around 3% -- and the market was/has been returning far more than that. But people tend to prioritize it even if it isn't a financially savvy move bc you can make more in the market than your borrowing rate -- bc they just want to be DONE with loans. It's a mental thing that a lot of lawyers buy into.

I get why having kids would delay things. But for 20 something singles, the option shouldn't be (or at least wasn't for me) either paying down loans or maxing 401k unless they're living large otherwise. I maxed out my 401k since I was first eligible and through $$ at my law school debt whenever I could (sometimes the entire amount of my bonus since 401k was already maxed out with regular paychecks).

Agree with you but the point is that so many associates were so panicked about loans, that they threw EVERY dollar at loans. In their minds, putting $1500/month into a 401k (to max out at 18k at that time) was a "waste" when that's an extra $1500 that could go into loans -- even though they had loans at 3-3.5% rates and the market was returning 10%+ per year at that time. They didn't get the idea that you can't "make up" for it by contributing to the 401k in full once loans were gone bc you will have lost out on the time value of money.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:^Kids change the game entirely -- because you're making daycare or nanny payments and sometimes both if you have extremely long hours.

The investments vs. loans thing is definitely an issue. Most of my biglaw peers prioritized getting the loans paid off ASAP -- usually that meant putting little/nothing into 401ks, having minimal liquid savings, and having NO other investment accounts. This is despite the fact that we graduated at a time when prevailing student loan rates were around 3% -- and the market was/has been returning far more than that. But people tend to prioritize it even if it isn't a financially savvy move bc you can make more in the market than your borrowing rate -- bc they just want to be DONE with loans. It's a mental thing that a lot of lawyers buy into.

I get why having kids would delay things. But for 20 something singles, the option shouldn't be (or at least wasn't for me) either paying down loans or maxing 401k unless they're living large otherwise. I maxed out my 401k since I was first eligible and through $$ at my law school debt whenever I could (sometimes the entire amount of my bonus since 401k was already maxed out with regular paychecks).

I didn't live large and I poured every penny into paying off my loans including the interest free loan the firm gave me during my deferral period. If I was smarter I would have maxed out the 401(k) and paid off my loans over a slightly longer period of time.

[Anonymous]

When I started at biglaw, DW and I had a combined net worth of $100k. Virtually all of that was her diligent saving. My parents paid for law school so I did have no loans, for which I am forever grateful.

We were obsessive about saving and lived cheaper than the paralegals, in run down gentrifying apartments. I also hit the stock market perfectly (though it was an abysmal time to work, right after the recession with associates being fired left and right).

I left after 3.7 years (no fourth year bonus). I did receive full "cravath" scale plus very small above market bonuses for two of the three years due to being worked like a dog -- way mre hours than a typical associate, though I was an intense department at an intense firm so nothing spectacular about me individually -- just torrents of work all around. We lived off DW's nonprofit salary and stuffed virtually all of my salary and bonus into Vanguard admiral / institutional index funds.

We were a shade over $700k when I left. Now we have two kids and saving is harder, so we save $50k a year and not $175k.

We cleared a million a few years later, in large part due to investment returns.

Then DWs middle class parents both died right after retirement. It was awful and she hasn't recovered. But it's all randomly collided to make money issues sort of moot now.

[Anonymous]

In response to your concerns though, if you are a junior associate it's not really a concern yet whether or not they make partners in the next few years.

Actually more sucky to be a senior associate where they just made a few junior partners.

If business picks up, there may be a big gap they need to fill.

I'd just keep on keeping on until you feel done and something better comes along. And yeah, a less intense $150k job counts as better in my book if it really is less intense.

[Anonymous]

We did not save enough when dh was an associate but there really wasn't a ton of money to save. We had kids and kids take so much money! We invested in retirement and still have the law school loans. He moved to in house and now with stock and retirement matching (which law firms don't have) we finally are in a place where we can pay off the loans within a couple of years. The only friend of his who left biglaw FI had no student loans and already had a great networth from his job before law school. He kept investing. Another had family help to buy his house.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
When I started at biglaw, DW and I had a combined net worth of $100k. Virtually all of that was her diligent saving. My parents paid for law school so I did have no loans, for which I am forever grateful.

We were obsessive about saving and lived cheaper than the paralegals, in run down gentrifying apartments. I also hit the stock market perfectly (though it was an abysmal time to work, right after the recession with associates being fired left and right).

I left after 3.7 years (no fourth year bonus). I did receive full "cravath" scale plus very small above market bonuses for two of the three years due to being worked like a dog -- way mre hours than a typical associate, though I was an intense department at an intense firm so nothing spectacular about me individually -- just torrents of work all around. We lived off DW's nonprofit salary and stuffed virtually all of my salary and bonus into Vanguard admiral / institutional index funds.

We were a shade over $700k when I left. Now we have two kids and saving is harder, so we save $50k a year and not $175k.

We cleared a million a few years later, in large part due to investment returns.

Then DWs middle class parents both died right after retirement. It was awful and she hasn't recovered. But it's all randomly collided to make money issues sort of moot now.

I am both impressed and mortified by your diligent saving!