Has Europe really changed that much?

[Anonymous]

Big city themeparks is spot on. And there are so many visiting students from other parts of Europe. Hordes and hordes.

[Anonymous]

When I traveled (and lived there) extensively in the late 90s-early 2000s the Dollar was strong and airfare there was cheap (think $300-400 non-stop from DC to anywhere in Europe).

Traveling, in general, post 9/11 is a major PIA. Crowds are also greater.

Some cities that were cheap back then (we could live and not work) now have gotten much, much more expensive. Prices rivaling NYC, etc. for drinks/food.

[Anonymous]

4. The globalization of cities. I can go to certain kinds of neighborhoods in most of the big European cities and eat in the same ethnic restaurants, drink in the same hipster coffee shops, be surrounded by the same kinds of people as I can in certain neighborhoods in DC or New York or SF or Boston. As the world globalizes, the more homogeneous our cities and lifestyles have become, particularly for the educated professional classes that like to travel. I've been in coffee shops in Mumbai and Hong Kong that would be right at home in Brooklyn or London. That familiarity and the prevalence of it in the main European cities means Europe is no longer the exotic destination it was.

5. Demographic changes. This is the most controversial part. I am not passing moral judgement. But that has been a big demographic change in Europe in the last 20 years. Places like London, and even Paris, now have huge demographics they didn't have before. London is probably the most changed city in my lifetime. It really is no longer an English city for most practical purposes with the majority of Londoners now foreign born or children of foreign born. It's just different now both for good and bad reasons. And the same is happening to Paris. This is less of an issue in the smaller cities and in central Europe and Eastern Europe is barely touched by the waves of immigration.

Translation: non-whites have ruined London and Paris for me!

[Anonymous]

Europe is still great OP. And, each country is different. It sounds like maybe you've changed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

4. The globalization of cities. I can go to certain kinds of neighborhoods in most of the big European cities and eat in the same ethnic restaurants, drink in the same hipster coffee shops, be surrounded by the same kinds of people as I can in certain neighborhoods in DC or New York or SF or Boston. As the world globalizes, the more homogeneous our cities and lifestyles have become, particularly for the educated professional classes that like to travel. I've been in coffee shops in Mumbai and Hong Kong that would be right at home in Brooklyn or London. That familiarity and the prevalence of it in the main European cities means Europe is no longer the exotic destination it was.

5. Demographic changes. This is the most controversial part. I am not passing moral judgement. But that has been a big demographic change in Europe in the last 20 years. Places like London, and even Paris, now have huge demographics they didn't have before. London is probably the most changed city in my lifetime. It really is no longer an English city for most practical purposes with the majority of Londoners now foreign born or children of foreign born. It's just different now both for good and bad reasons. And the same is happening to Paris. This is less of an issue in the smaller cities and in central Europe and Eastern Europe is barely touched by the waves of immigration.

Translation: non-whites have ruined London and Paris for me!

I think the PP made some really interesting observations actually.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I’m not the world’s biggest expert, lol. But, I traveled in Europe on some various trips from around 1997-2004 - London, Paris, south of France on another trip, Greece, Italy, Spain... then I got married & had 3 kids, & after a hiatus went back to Rome in 2017. It was as good as I remembered it...

+1.

OP, don't believe everything you read in the media. More often than not they just want to (need to) attract eyeballs via tragedy and sensationalism.

[Anonymous]

You are a typical ugly American OP. Stay home eating McDonalds and watching your Faux Fox News

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are a typical ugly American OP. Stay home eating McDonalds and watching your Faux Fox News

Fox News viewers will be welcome to Poland, Hungary and Slovenia.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:You are a typical ugly American OP. Stay home eating McDonalds and watching your Faux Fox News

Why would you say that?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am the poster who wrote the long post on the previous page about the changes to Europe.

I should elaborate further and say that most of my comments are mainly addressed at the big cities, particularly places like London and Paris and Venice, which is where most tourists go. But if you are willing to venture off the beaten path, Europe is still a richly rewarding destination. How many people jump straight from Florence to Venice without stopping at Bologna? Or make the efforts to go to Ravenna? And places like Naples and Sicily are still very "authentic" and full of old character.

In France, the most "French" parts are all outside Paris these days. Try Strasbourg or Lyons, and get further into the provinces. Places like Normandy and Brittany still get their full of tourists but those are mainly European tourists and it's still enjoyable. The Dordogne is also lovely.

And venture further east! We took a trip to Romania several years ago on a whim, nothing more than the praises of one of our friends. And we were blown away by how wonderful it was. Transylvania is filled with old Austro-Hungarian cities and the countryside is dotted with historic Saxon villages with their fortified churches and wildfowl still wander the unpaved muddy lanes of the villages, and horse drawn wagons are still seen in the fields and on the roads, and people still manually stack hay into haystacks. We were looking at scenes literally last seen in Western Europe 150 years ago. And the painted monasteries of the Bukovina region were spectacular. Bucharest is still a period piece for both pre war and Soviet reasons. Poland and Hungary and Czech Republic (outside Prague, but even Prague itself) still retain a strongly local flavor. I have not been to Slovenia yet but have heard many wonderful things about it as well.

I will agree with this. I spent a large amount of time backpacking across Europe in the early 2000s. Even then I felt that much of Western Europe was overrun with tourists. Some smaller towns like Saltzburg, Austria were all but unbearable because the only thing left in the town center was fake tourist nonsense ("The hills are alive..."). The locals had vacated. We ended up giving up on Western Europe and we spend most of our travels in Romania, Croatia, Bosnia, Serbia, Hungry, Slovakia and the Czech Republic. Other than Prague, all of these places felt undisturbed by tourists. They were spectacular. We tended to take local transport and rent rooms from locals. It was hard to go back to Western Europe after feeling like you were truly experiencing history. The bullet holes in Sarajevo. The soot crusted restaurant in the Czech countryside where they cooked over an open fire because they didn't have electricity. The mist cloaked castles in Romania. The hole in the wall restaurant overlooking the Black Sea. The hayride from a local farmer to a Serbian monestary. The Croatian isle where the only restaurant didn't have a menu because the chef went down to the dock to purchase fish off of a fisherman after you ordered. Just amazing.

[Anonymous]

IMO, Germany has changed a lot in the last 5 years. The vibe is really different now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Really miss having to change money whenever you cross a border.

+1

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:When I traveled (and lived there) extensively in the late 90s-early 2000s the Dollar was strong and airfare there was cheap (think $300-400 non-stop from DC to anywhere in Europe).

Traveling, in general, post 9/11 is a major PIA. Crowds are also greater.

Some cities that were cheap back then (we could live and not work) now have gotten much, much more expensive. Prices rivaling NYC, etc. for drinks/food.

+1 This is so true. I am so glad I got to live and travel in Europe extensively 20 years ago. I haven't been in years, but can only imagine how different it is now. Many major tourists areas were already busy when I used to visit 20 yrs ago, I'm sure they're a whole different beast nowadays.

With that said, for those who have never been, I think you should go if you're interested. Why not see and experience the places for yourself? It will be new to you, you won't have anything prior point of reference. Europe tourist cities have always been crowded, and always will be. Experience them for yourself. Also visit cities that aren't as touristy like Assissi, the Italian country side and riviera, Monaco, Switzerland, Brugges, coastal England, Crete. There are so many places that tourists haven't overrun that I'm sure still retain their European-ness and will give you that exotic thrill you are looking for.