Gifted Programs at Charter Schools?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, that is true. The kids without the money and resources need some kind of pull out program -- be it "gifted" or some particularly challenging school -- the most.

I am right now in a small village in Eastern Europe where elementary school is year round (3 tracks to accommodate all the students).
There are 5 old computers in the entire school. The teachers use basic textbooks and a green chalk board. There are no Promethean boards, no LCD projectors , no listening centers, very minimal technology.
I was invited to the 3rd grade class to help students with their English pronunciation. English is their 3rd language, being taught 3 times a week (45 minutes each)
All the kids were able to read from their English textbook and answer the questions in writing. They lacked oral fluency and so did their teacher.
I then stayed for the other subjects and visited other grade levels . Almost every student was able to follow the written directions. This is the only school the village has so there's no such thing as gifted and talented; however there is daily music and chess instruction for all students.
So I truly do not get it when people complain that students do not perform well in the capital of the USA because the school lacks funding.
Instead of spending so much time on constant testing, writing measurement topics making sure mastery is reached or else reteach the same thing again and again, let the teachers follow a certain curriculum.
However, this won't work in the USA because education is such a big business, with lucrative charters mushrooming right and left, because they have something "innovative" to offer.

How is the generational poverty in that village compared to DC? Are most of the fathers in jail, dead, or on their way there? Do they kids have role models and motivation to succeed via school?

what makes you think all the poorer kids in DC have no motivation or fathers? Do you realize a substantial proportion of ESL, at risk, and poorer kids get 4s and 5s on PARCC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, that is true. The kids without the money and resources need some kind of pull out program -- be it "gifted" or some particularly challenging school -- the most.

I am right now in a small village in Eastern Europe where elementary school is year round (3 tracks to accommodate all the students).
There are 5 old computers in the entire school. The teachers use basic textbooks and a green chalk board. There are no Promethean boards, no LCD projectors , no listening centers, very minimal technology.
I was invited to the 3rd grade class to help students with their English pronunciation. English is their 3rd language, being taught 3 times a week (45 minutes each)
All the kids were able to read from their English textbook and answer the questions in writing. They lacked oral fluency and so did their teacher.
I then stayed for the other subjects and visited other grade levels . Almost every student was able to follow the written directions. This is the only school the village has so there's no such thing as gifted and talented; however there is daily music and chess instruction for all students.
So I truly do not get it when people complain that students do not perform well in the capital of the USA because the school lacks funding.
Instead of spending so much time on constant testing, writing measurement topics making sure mastery is reached or else reteach the same thing again and again, let the teachers follow a certain curriculum.
However, this won't work in the USA because education is such a big business, with lucrative charters mushrooming right and left, because they have something "innovative" to offer.

How is the generational poverty in that village compared to DC? Are most of the fathers in jail, dead, or on their way there? Do they kids have role models and motivation to succeed via school?

what makes you think all the poorer kids in DC have no motivation or fathers? Do you realize a substantial proportion of ESL, at risk, and poorer kids get 4s and 5s on PARCC?

I never said all. It's just a higher proportion than kids from high SES families. And they get a lower proportion of 4s and 5s on the PARCC.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC charter schools do not need no does DCPS some old fashioned pull-out gifted program that will just cause more havoc like we read on the suburbs' forums.

Every time one of these threads comes up, I ask for research that proves that gifted programs have tangible benefits. I have yet to receive a response.

I'll be your response, and "tangible benefits" on this thread in the absence of common sense on this one. I grew up poor, minority, FARMs. Entered full-time GT program in Boston public system at age 8. Passed Boston Latin admissions test at 12. Graduated from Latin and went to Ivy and Ivy law school. Am happy senior attorney with federal agency with PhD spouse. No GT, and I'd probably still be in the bad news South Boston housing project where I grew up.

+100 It's anecdotal, but my story is virtually identical to yours. Low income, first to college in my family, propelled by a G&T program, very well off now. I've kept in touch with a number of kids from my old neighborhood who did not have this access and the outcomes are strikingly different.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC charter schools do not need no does DCPS some old fashioned pull-out gifted program that will just cause more havoc like we read on the suburbs' forums.

Every time one of these threads comes up, I ask for research that proves that gifted programs have tangible benefits. I have yet to receive a response.

I'll be your response, and "tangible benefits" on this thread in the absence of common sense on this one. I grew up poor, minority, FARMs. Entered full-time GT program in Boston public system at age 8. Passed Boston Latin admissions test at 12. Graduated from Latin and went to Ivy and Ivy law school. Am happy senior attorney with federal agency with PhD spouse. No GT, and I'd probably still be in the bad news South Boston housing project where I grew up.

+100 It's anecdotal, but my story is virtually identical to yours. Low income, first to college in my family, propelled by a G&T program, very well off now. I've kept in touch with a number of kids from my old neighborhood who did not have this access and the outcomes are strikingly different.

How come you had access to a GT program but other kids in your neighborhood didn't? Is it possible that you and PP succeeded because you're smarter (or harder working, etc.) than your peers? It would follow that you'd also be the ones selected for a GT program, but doesn't mean that the program is why you succeeded.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC charter schools do not need no does DCPS some old fashioned pull-out gifted program that will just cause more havoc like we read on the suburbs' forums.

Every time one of these threads comes up, I ask for research that proves that gifted programs have tangible benefits. I have yet to receive a response.

I'll be your response, and "tangible benefits" on this thread in the absence of common sense on this one. I grew up poor, minority, FARMs. Entered full-time GT program in Boston public system at age 8. Passed Boston Latin admissions test at 12. Graduated from Latin and went to Ivy and Ivy law school. Am happy senior attorney with federal agency with PhD spouse. No GT, and I'd probably still be in the bad news South Boston housing project where I grew up.

+100 It's anecdotal, but my story is virtually identical to yours. Low income, first to college in my family, propelled by a G&T program, very well off now. I've kept in touch with a number of kids from my old neighborhood who did not have this access and the outcomes are strikingly different.

How come you had access to a GT program but other kids in your neighborhood didn't? Is it possible that you and PP succeeded because you're smarter (or harder working, etc.) than your peers? It would follow that you'd also be the ones selected for a GT program, but doesn't mean that the program is why you succeeded.

Please, having access to a GT program serving a mix of kids (mostly white and high SES) made all the difference for me as a kid, period. Being smarter and harder working wasn't going to do the trick in classrooms packed with low-income minority kids who had difficulty behaving and concentrating, and weren't getting much in the way of intellectual stimulation or structure at home. Being well-behaved and academically advanced meant that I was largely ignored by my lower grades teachers, because I wasn't a problem to them. Rubbing shoulders with mostly upper middle-class kids in school for ten years proved a lifesaver. I learned about trips to Disney World and national parks, vacations abroad, life insurance, backyard pools, turning off the TV to read for pleasure, birthday party protocols, how to play board games, you name it. After a few years with high SES peers, I saw a future for myself growing into a high SES person. If you grew up middle-class, you aren't necessarily going to understand that it's the whole GT package that saves bright low-income kids minority from tough lives, not just the academics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC charter schools do not need no does DCPS some old fashioned pull-out gifted program that will just cause more havoc like we read on the suburbs' forums.

Every time one of these threads comes up, I ask for research that proves that gifted programs have tangible benefits. I have yet to receive a response.

I'll be your response, and "tangible benefits" on this thread in the absence of common sense on this one. I grew up poor, minority, FARMs. Entered full-time GT program in Boston public system at age 8. Passed Boston Latin admissions test at 12. Graduated from Latin and went to Ivy and Ivy law school. Am happy senior attorney with federal agency with PhD spouse. No GT, and I'd probably still be in the bad news South Boston housing project where I grew up.

+100 It's anecdotal, but my story is virtually identical to yours. Low income, first to college in my family, propelled by a G&T program, very well off now. I've kept in touch with a number of kids from my old neighborhood who did not have this access and the outcomes are strikingly different.

How come you had access to a GT program but other kids in your neighborhood didn't? Is it possible that you and PP succeeded because you're smarter (or harder working, etc.) than your peers? It would follow that you'd also be the ones selected for a GT program, but doesn't mean that the program is why you succeeded.

Please, having access to a GT program serving a mix of kids (mostly white and high SES) made all the difference for me as a kid, period. Being smarter and harder working wasn't going to do the trick in classrooms packed with low-income minority kids who had difficulty behaving and concentrating, and weren't getting much in the way of intellectual stimulation or structure at home. Being well-behaved and academically advanced meant that I was largely ignored by my lower grades teachers, because I wasn't a problem to them. Rubbing shoulders with mostly upper middle-class kids in school for ten years proved a lifesaver. I learned about trips to Disney World and national parks, vacations abroad, life insurance, backyard pools, turning off the TV to read for pleasure, birthday party protocols, how to play board games, you name it. After a few years with high SES peers, I saw a future for myself growing into a high SES person. If you grew up middle-class, you aren't necessarily going to understand that it's the whole GT package that saves bright low-income kids minority from tough lives, not just the academics.

Ok, but most of the families posting on here are asking about GT programs in WOTP schools or in charters attended by a lot of high SES kids with parents with serious social capital.... the GT programs in most of MoCo are a coin flip between kids of highly educated parents where the 'benefit' if there is any evens out by MS anyway.

So, it depends what types of programs people are advocating for. If it's GT to benefit lower-income kids, I'd go for that. If it's the perception of feeling your snowflake is flakier than other high achieving, high performing kids in that layer of DCPS and HRCS, then give it up.

[Anonymous]

It's not that simple. Our Latino cleaning lady's 10 year-old attends at GT program in MoCo. She tells me that he's attending a sleep-away GT math summer school the county is paying for.

From what I've seen when she brings him with her to work, his math homework is much harder than that my "snowflake" of the same age gets at a DC charter with a mile-long WL for every grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC charter schools do not need no does DCPS some old fashioned pull-out gifted program that will just cause more havoc like we read on the suburbs' forums.

Every time one of these threads comes up, I ask for research that proves that gifted programs have tangible benefits. I have yet to receive a response.

I'll be your response, and "tangible benefits" on this thread in the absence of common sense on this one. I grew up poor, minority, FARMs. Entered full-time GT program in Boston public system at age 8. Passed Boston Latin admissions test at 12. Graduated from Latin and went to Ivy and Ivy law school. Am happy senior attorney with federal agency with PhD spouse. No GT, and I'd probably still be in the bad news South Boston housing project where I grew up.

+100 It's anecdotal, but my story is virtually identical to yours. Low income, first to college in my family, propelled by a G&T program, very well off now. I've kept in touch with a number of kids from my old neighborhood who did not have this access and the outcomes are strikingly different.

How come you had access to a GT program but other kids in your neighborhood didn't? Is it possible that you and PP succeeded because you're smarter (or harder working, etc.) than your peers? It would follow that you'd also be the ones selected for a GT program, but doesn't mean that the program is why you succeeded.

Please, having access to a GT program serving a mix of kids (mostly white and high SES) made all the difference for me as a kid, period. Being smarter and harder working wasn't going to do the trick in classrooms packed with low-income minority kids who had difficulty behaving and concentrating, and weren't getting much in the way of intellectual stimulation or structure at home. Being well-behaved and academically advanced meant that I was largely ignored by my lower grades teachers, because I wasn't a problem to them. Rubbing shoulders with mostly upper middle-class kids in school for ten years proved a lifesaver. I learned about trips to Disney World and national parks, vacations abroad, life insurance, backyard pools, turning off the TV to read for pleasure, birthday party protocols, how to play board games, you name it. After a few years with high SES peers, I saw a future for myself growing into a high SES person. If you grew up middle-class, you aren't necessarily going to understand that it's the whole GT package that saves bright low-income kids minority from tough lives, not just the academics.

I have a similar background. I wish I knew you in real life. I think we would have a lot to talk about. My test in school saved my life.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, that is true. The kids without the money and resources need some kind of pull out program -- be it "gifted" or some particularly challenging school -- the most.

I am right now in a small village in Eastern Europe where elementary school is year round (3 tracks to accommodate all the students).
There are 5 old computers in the entire school. The teachers use basic textbooks and a green chalk board. There are no Promethean boards, no LCD projectors , no listening centers, very minimal technology.
I was invited to the 3rd grade class to help students with their English pronunciation. English is their 3rd language, being taught 3 times a week (45 minutes each)
All the kids were able to read from their English textbook and answer the questions in writing. They lacked oral fluency and so did their teacher.
I then stayed for the other subjects and visited other grade levels . Almost every student was able to follow the written directions. This is the only school the village has so there's no such thing as gifted and talented; however there is daily music and chess instruction for all students.
So I truly do not get it when people complain that students do not perform well in the capital of the USA because the school lacks funding.
Instead of spending so much time on constant testing, writing measurement topics making sure mastery is reached or else reteach the same thing again and again, let the teachers follow a certain curriculum.
However, this won't work in the USA because education is such a big business, with lucrative charters mushrooming right and left, because they have something "innovative" to offer.

How is the generational poverty in that village compared to DC? Are most of the fathers in jail, dead, or on their way there? Do they kids have role models and motivation to succeed via school?

what makes you think all the poorer kids in DC have no motivation or fathers? Do you realize a substantial proportion of ESL, at risk, and poorer kids get 4s and 5s on PARCC?

These numbers are reading/math for DCPS and charters from http://results.osse.dc.gov/state/DC/assessment/1

ESL: 14/19
At Risk:13/13
Economically disadvantaged: 18/17

So it's not zero, but still likely that a test in gifted program would look a lot richer and whiter than DC schools or DC as a whole.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, that is true. The kids without the money and resources need some kind of pull out program -- be it "gifted" or some particularly challenging school -- the most.

I am right now in a small village in Eastern Europe where elementary school is year round (3 tracks to accommodate all the students).
There are 5 old computers in the entire school. The teachers use basic textbooks and a green chalk board. There are no Promethean boards, no LCD projectors , no listening centers, very minimal technology.
I was invited to the 3rd grade class to help students with their English pronunciation. English is their 3rd language, being taught 3 times a week (45 minutes each)
All the kids were able to read from their English textbook and answer the questions in writing. They lacked oral fluency and so did their teacher.
I then stayed for the other subjects and visited other grade levels . Almost every student was able to follow the written directions. This is the only school the village has so there's no such thing as gifted and talented; however there is daily music and chess instruction for all students.
So I truly do not get it when people complain that students do not perform well in the capital of the USA because the school lacks funding.
Instead of spending so much time on constant testing, writing measurement topics making sure mastery is reached or else reteach the same thing again and again, let the teachers follow a certain curriculum.
However, this won't work in the USA because education is such a big business, with lucrative charters mushrooming right and left, because they have something "innovative" to offer.

How is the generational poverty in that village compared to DC? Are most of the fathers in jail, dead, or on their way there? Do they kids have role models and motivation to succeed via school?

what makes you think all the poorer kids in DC have no motivation or fathers? Do you realize a substantial proportion of ESL, at risk, and poorer kids get 4s and 5s on PARCC?

when you say "substantial" where are you getting tha tinformation. Its not true. When DC extrapolates data by race the chasm in scores grows into the grand canyon. Some do score well but its not substantail by a long shot

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The two articles barely skim the surface of the issues. I don't like how the Slate piece derides "white and Asian" parents prepping kids for GT tests as "gaming the system." Where's the gaming in helping kids prepare for any tough test? If my hard-scrabble immigrant parents hadn't played this "game," sacrificing time and money they didn't really have to send me to quality test prep on weekends, I couldn't have attended a NYC magnet high school, the best thing that's ever happened to me. The complaints in the article are yet another example of how immigrants, particularly East Asian immigrants, are seen as not playing by the rules in this country - damn them, they work too hard for the good of society, and expect their kids to do the same.

Screening tests are intended to distinguish kids' ability levels and are based on an assumption that kids have not specifically prepared for the screening test. When kids are prepped specifically for the screening test, it skews the results.

This means that wealthy parents (who can afford tutoring companies that hire people familiar with the tests) get their kids into gifted programs over kids who are more deserving (i.e. kids who would have scored better than the little rich kids if all of them were unfamiliar with the test).

These screening tests are not designed to find the kids (parents really) who work the hardest. They are designed to find the smartest kids. Ideally, if they can identify under served smart kids (kids who don't have parents who are busting their asses to game the system) and offer those smart kids accelerated material, then society is much better off.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, that is true. The kids without the money and resources need some kind of pull out program -- be it "gifted" or some particularly challenging school -- the most.

I am right now in a small village in Eastern Europe where elementary school is year round (3 tracks to accommodate all the students).
There are 5 old computers in the entire school. The teachers use basic textbooks and a green chalk board. There are no Promethean boards, no LCD projectors , no listening centers, very minimal technology.
I was invited to the 3rd grade class to help students with their English pronunciation. English is their 3rd language, being taught 3 times a week (45 minutes each)
All the kids were able to read from their English textbook and answer the questions in writing. They lacked oral fluency and so did their teacher.
I then stayed for the other subjects and visited other grade levels . Almost every student was able to follow the written directions. This is the only school the village has so there's no such thing as gifted and talented; however there is daily music and chess instruction for all students.
So I truly do not get it when people complain that students do not perform well in the capital of the USA because the school lacks funding.
Instead of spending so much time on constant testing, writing measurement topics making sure mastery is reached or else reteach the same thing again and again, let the teachers follow a certain curriculum.
However, this won't work in the USA because education is such a big business, with lucrative charters mushrooming right and left, because they have something "innovative" to offer.

How is the generational poverty in that village compared to DC? Are most of the fathers in jail, dead, or on their way there? Do they kids have role models and motivation to succeed via school?

what makes you think all the poorer kids in DC have no motivation or fathers? Do you realize a substantial proportion of ESL, at risk, and poorer kids get 4s and 5s on PARCC?

These numbers are reading/math for DCPS and charters from http://results.osse.dc.gov/state/DC/assessment/1

ESL: 14/19
At Risk:13/13
Economically disadvantaged: 18/17

So it's not zero, but still likely that a test in gifted program would look a lot richer and whiter than DC schools or DC as a whole.

Obviously it couldn't be pure test-in. It would have to be designed to find gifted kids from all schools and reflect the DC population.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my experience, that is true. The kids without the money and resources need some kind of pull out program -- be it "gifted" or some particularly challenging school -- the most.

I am right now in a small village in Eastern Europe where elementary school is year round (3 tracks to accommodate all the students).
There are 5 old computers in the entire school. The teachers use basic textbooks and a green chalk board. There are no Promethean boards, no LCD projectors , no listening centers, very minimal technology.
I was invited to the 3rd grade class to help students with their English pronunciation. English is their 3rd language, being taught 3 times a week (45 minutes each)
All the kids were able to read from their English textbook and answer the questions in writing. They lacked oral fluency and so did their teacher.
I then stayed for the other subjects and visited other grade levels . Almost every student was able to follow the written directions. This is the only school the village has so there's no such thing as gifted and talented; however there is daily music and chess instruction for all students.
So I truly do not get it when people complain that students do not perform well in the capital of the USA because the school lacks funding.
Instead of spending so much time on constant testing, writing measurement topics making sure mastery is reached or else reteach the same thing again and again, let the teachers follow a certain curriculum.
However, this won't work in the USA because education is such a big business, with lucrative charters mushrooming right and left, because they have something "innovative" to offer.

How is the generational poverty in that village compared to DC? Are most of the fathers in jail, dead, or on their way there? Do they kids have role models and motivation to succeed via school?

what makes you think all the poorer kids in DC have no motivation or fathers? Do you realize a substantial proportion of ESL, at risk, and poorer kids get 4s and 5s on PARCC?

when you say "substantial" where are you getting tha tinformation. Its not true. When DC extrapolates data by race the chasm in scores grows into the grand canyon. Some do score well but its not substantail by a long shot

See above. Something like 1/5 of economically disadvantaged kids get 4s and 5s on PARCC. Something like 1/3 of African American girls do. Overall point is that there are many bright kids of all types in DC, doing well in school. Any gifted program would have to draw on this talent and be designed to reflect DC's demographics. Any advocate of a DC gifted program must take this fact to heart.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DC charter schools do not need no does DCPS some old fashioned pull-out gifted program that will just cause more havoc like we read on the suburbs' forums.

Every time one of these threads comes up, I ask for research that proves that gifted programs have tangible benefits. I have yet to receive a response.

I'll be your response, and "tangible benefits" on this thread in the absence of common sense on this one. I grew up poor, minority, FARMs. Entered full-time GT program in Boston public system at age 8. Passed Boston Latin admissions test at 12. Graduated from Latin and went to Ivy and Ivy law school. Am happy senior attorney with federal agency with PhD spouse. No GT, and I'd probably still be in the bad news South Boston housing project where I grew up.

+100 It's anecdotal, but my story is virtually identical to yours. Low income, first to college in my family, propelled by a G&T program, very well off now. I've kept in touch with a number of kids from my old neighborhood who did not have this access and the outcomes are strikingly different.

How come you had access to a GT program but other kids in your neighborhood didn't? Is it possible that you and PP succeeded because you're smarter (or harder working, etc.) than your peers? It would follow that you'd also be the ones selected for a GT program, but doesn't mean that the program is why you succeeded.

I am 08/02/2017 12:26 PP but not 08/02/2017 13:18 PP. I appreciate your chicken or the egg argument, but without that opportunity I’m not sure my brains and motivation alone would’ve gotten my out of that situation. I needed the advanced instruction and expectations and as 13:18 PP points out, having the “premium cohort” around me was absolutely critical to thriving once I hit teen and college years (with college scholarships that I doubt I would’ve had access to without exposure to advanced programming and AP classes).

[Anonymous]

I am the OP. I was never considering the possibility of having no advanced programming such as Advanced Placement, IB, etc, etc, I was specifically referring to a pull-out GT program.