Coastal vs Midwestern Dems

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again -- based on the Michigan Dems comments in the article, I get the sense that there hasn't been any movement to come together. Their message seems to be no one is listening. It is as frustrating as the lack of bipartisanship in this country.

Like this?

If the Democratic Party doesn't come up with a set of principles and policies that create opportunity for people who haven't had it, I think a third party is going to emerge.


First of all I hear a LOT about Dems supporting higher minimum wages, free college, etc. But all that is rather academic when they have no control over any branch of the federal govt. People ARE doing things in states, from Nevada to New York. Meanwhile the rule of law is under attack, so it seems pretty reasonable to focus on that. And on fighting what is being done at the federal level to go backwards - on health care, on financial regs, etc.

So, again, I am not sure of what they want, and whom they are addressing. They want Pelosi to drop focus on defending the republic and create a plan for the auto industry?

OTOH this probably sounds good in Michigan, so more power to them.

but congresspeople are going to represent their own regions interests as they always have. Congressional leadership is going to balance. A national policy will wait for 2020 in all likelihood.

Yes, all of this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Anyone who still chooses to live in flyover country is a dumbass.

Coastal cities are where the economy is. That's where the jobs that matter are, where policy is made, and where people with talent will gravitate.

The middle of the country is the sump that collects the lazy, the stupid, those without ambition, and anyone else too obtuse to figure out where to be.

Democrats are the party of science, learning, education and betterment. By that definition, if you call yourself a Democrat, and subscribe to those values, you live on the coast, either in the northest, or the west coast.

If you call yourself a Dem and live in .... I dunno, someplace I'd never be caught dead in, then guess what? You're an idiot.

It's pretty simple.

This.

The way I see it, landlocked states pretty much cost us the election. I have exactly zero love for red states, or Democrats that choose to live in red states. They should know better. And if they can't figure out that the blue states are where the future is, where the jobs will be, where the growth and investment will be, then they are no smarter than their dumbass trump voting next door neighbor. They all need to be written off.

We need to focus on two things - 1) voter turnout in urban areas. 2) immigration, and bringing new Democrats to America. 3) making sure voter ID laws are struck down in the courts whenever they are passed by racist thug state legislatures.

That is how we will win. Not by courting dumb people who can't figure out they should move

I've encountered people like you, but I can't tell if this is a sockpuppet.

The giant neon "SOCKPUPPET" sign is the giveaway for me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I grew up in the midwest and I have not experienced anything like what you describe.

?? Michael Moore nailed it perfectly even before the last election.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:m'eh, she's not saying anything I haven't read here a hundred times already.There is a visceral disdain for middle America among many people here. So much, and so common, that I can't tell if it's a legit post or not. Look at some of the pics in some of the other threads about toning down the hostility. There's actually a photo of a guy holding a sign that says F*ck Middle America". That seems pretty legit to me.

Yeah, how do you tell if it's a troll or not, haha? You can see the same stuff in virtually every post that touches anything related to class, Ivy schools, even driving habits! Urbanites are some catty mofos that like to cast asparagus on people from flyover country.

That's a flipping hilarious autocorrect, I think.

"I toss my asparagus at you, peon."

On another note, there seems to be a concerted effort to cast the Democrat Party as snide and superior elitists. Dems have their problems, but this does not describe not the bulk of the party.

Does anyone have any leads on whether this is a concerted part of Republican talking points? I'm serious -- it has really ramped up, both with overgeneralization criticisms and apparent sockpuppets.

What's up?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Coastal dems don't care whether Wall Street controls our politicians, like Obama. Midwestern dems don't even know it happens.

Midwestern dems have the right priorities. Ignoring them got us Trump.

Coastal dems are also way more Zionist and aipac friendly.

Yuck

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think you are conflating "rural" and "Midwestern".

No -- I'm talking more about urban Democratic centers like Flint and Detroit. I know DCUM tendencies to equate Midwestern with rural.

Amy Klobuchar is from the mid-west and she gets quite a bit of recognition and voice.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:m'eh, she's not saying anything I haven't read here a hundred times already.There is a visceral disdain for middle America among many people here. So much, and so common, that I can't tell if it's a legit post or not. Look at some of the pics in some of the other threads about toning down the hostility. There's actually a photo of a guy holding a sign that says F*ck Middle America". That seems pretty legit to me.

Yeah, how do you tell if it's a troll or not, haha? You can see the same stuff in virtually every post that touches anything related to class, Ivy schools, even driving habits! Urbanites are some catty mofos that like to cast asparagus on people from flyover country.

That's a flipping hilarious autocorrect, I think.

"I toss my asparagus at you, peon."

On another note, there seems to be a concerted effort to cast the Democrat Party as snide and superior elitists. Dems have their problems, but this does not describe not the bulk of the party.

Does anyone have any leads on whether this is a concerted part of Republican talking points? I'm serious -- it has really ramped up, both with overgeneralization criticisms and apparent sockpuppets.

What's up?

I didn't realize how elitists the urban liberals were until I started reading DCUM. (And the disdain, too, even as demonstrated in the post above- what is it that anytime someone has a different opinion than you, they're accused of spitting out Republican talking points? The implication is that we can't think for ourselves.)

For starters, stop castigating successful and educated career people as failures simply because they don't make $200k. When we try to explain that type of thing to the liberal snobs, they double down and start calling $100k earners "losers." The irony of the whole thing is that while the snobs put down average workers (forget $100k...I'm talking $40k) as rednecks, flyover ignoramuses, etc., they defend irresponsible people on welfare who have five illegitimate children and no way to support them.

Why do liberals look down upon hard-working middle Americans who support their families and defend to the death those who don't even work for a living and live off taxpayer largesse?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coastal dems don't care whether Wall Street controls our politicians, like Obama. Midwestern dems don't even know it happens.

Midwestern dems have the right priorities. Ignoring them got us Trump.

Coastal dems are also way more Zionist and aipac friendly.

Yuck

Antisemitie.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coastal dems don't care whether Wall Street controls our politicians, like Obama. Midwestern dems don't even know it happens.

Midwestern dems have the right priorities. Ignoring them got us Trump.

Coastal dems are also way more Zionist and aipac friendly.

Yuck

Antisemitie.

I don't think you know what that means.

The more people just blanketly say "antisemite!" , the more it dilutes the charge when actually something really anti Semitic takes place.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Coastal dems don't care whether Wall Street controls our politicians, like Obama. Midwestern dems don't even know it happens.

Midwestern dems have the right priorities. Ignoring them got us Trump.

Coastal dems are also way more Zionist and aipac friendly.

Yuck

Antisemitie.

I don't think you know what that means.

The more people just blanketly say "antisemite!" , the more it dilutes the charge when actually something really anti Semitic takes place.

Of course I know what it is. And I know you think I don't know the difference between Zionists and Jews, and that being opposed to Israeli policy is not the same as being opposed to Judaism.

The problem is that people aren't making that distinction. The college students yell "get out, Zionists; get out Jews" all in the same breath. And even on DCUM, they can't tell the difference. I complained about an antisemitic flyer on a csmpus (depicting Jews as cheap money-grubbers and power whores, but with no mention of Israel), and out came the DCUM liberals criticizing Israeli policy. The flyer said nothing about Israel, and neither did I. Still, supposedly intelligent, educated people were conflating Zionism and Judaism, as many people do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
I didn't realize how elitists the urban liberals were until I started reading DCUM. (And the disdain, too, even as demonstrated in the post above- what is it that anytime someone has a different opinion than you, they're accused of spitting out Republican talking points? The implication is that we can't think for ourselves.)

For starters, stop castigating successful and educated career people as failures simply because they don't make $200k. When we try to explain that type of thing to the liberal snobs, they double down and start calling $100k earners "losers." The irony of the whole thing is that while the snobs put down average workers (forget $100k...I'm talking $40k) as rednecks, flyover ignoramuses, etc., they defend irresponsible people on welfare who have five illegitimate children and no way to support them.

Why do liberals look down upon hard-working middle Americans who support their families and defend to the death those who don't even work for a living and live off taxpayer largesse?

Is this the post you are talking about?
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/641523.page

How do you know the political affiliations of the posters?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
NP. Did you even read the article in the OP? It talks about exactly this. Urban communities feeling forgotten and so apathetic about both parties. I'm not sure I fully understand all of their grievances, since Clinton did visit Flint and make specific promises there, but I'm willing to listen.

FWIW, I grew up in a rich and very red suburb of Detroit. Like, I didn't even really think normal people could be Democrats until I was in HS red. I'm not sure I agree with OP's assessment that this is a coastal Dem vs. Midwestern Dem issue, but everything in the article made perfect sense to me. I think it's more elite Dem vs. working class Dem (a rift that's happening in the Republican party as well, BTW). In the Republican primary, Trump ironically talked to the working class, and he won the nomination and Presidency. Sanders played a similar role in the Democratic primary, but Clinton won...though ironically I think she would have governed in a much more progressive, albeit incremental way. Trump is unabashedly governing to benefit the elites.

My observation based on the fact that I think Hillary had by far the most well thought out and implementable platform that would have measurably improved the lives of working class Americans...but it didn't radically shift the status quo, and she is a terrible campaigner. I wanted to like Sanders, but I disagreed fundamentally with some of his policies and I don't think their effect would have matched his rhetoric.

Ultimately, to me, 2016 revealed some very fundamental rifts in America, most of which do split along racial lines. I know that's the canard that supposedly lost Clinton the election, but I don't think papering over the fact that POC experience America so differently than white people will change that reality. It will just kick the can down the road. I'm as elite as can be, and I'm also brown-skinned. I have experienced bigotry, and I have been haunted my whole life by the specter of not being a "real American". I'm not complaining about my lot in life, but it's the reality. The people quoted in the article did not benefit from my parents' wealth and education, and so they have been truly forgotten in America. Trump did not speak for them, and IMHO Hillary did not connect with them. To me, though, those communities are the natural Democratic base that's been left behind by the Democratic party since the 90s. I don't even think this base cares about trade, since right now their issues are fundamental. Government barely recognizes these people at all, except to criminalize them.

I see no one is interested in touching this.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I didn't realize how elitists the urban liberals were until I started reading DCUM. (And the disdain, too, even as demonstrated in the post above- what is it that anytime someone has a different opinion than you, they're accused of spitting out Republican talking points? The implication is that we can't think for ourselves.)

For starters, stop castigating successful and educated career people as failures simply because they don't make $200k. When we try to explain that type of thing to the liberal snobs, they double down and start calling $100k earners "losers." The irony of the whole thing is that while the snobs put down average workers (forget $100k...I'm talking $40k) as rednecks, flyover ignoramuses, etc., they defend irresponsible people on welfare who have five illegitimate children and no way to support them.

Why do liberals look down upon hard-working middle Americans who support their families and defend to the death those who don't even work for a living and live off taxpayer largesse?

Is this the post you are talking about?
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/641523.page

How do you know the political affiliations of the posters?

Yes, yes....that's the thread.

I figure they were liberals just by the way they responded to the OP's argument - that liberals lost the election because they are out of touch with average workers, and make them ignored and like losers when educated people making $100k or families making $200k act as if those decidedly above-average incomes are barely allowing them to get by. How, the point was, does that make the "real" family, HHI about $55k, feel?

Instead of acknowledging that there was a point there, these well-paid professionals came out swinging, calling the people in the low six-figure bracket losers, screw-ups, failures, etc. No recognition whatsover on the point just made - that when liberals don't realize how they make aversge earners feel like shit, they lose elections. Who else but liberals would have responded that way, since the message was directed at liberals?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
I didn't realize how elitists the urban liberals were until I started reading DCUM. (And the disdain, too, even as demonstrated in the post above- what is it that anytime someone has a different opinion than you, they're accused of spitting out Republican talking points? The implication is that we can't think for ourselves.)

For starters, stop castigating successful and educated career people as failures simply because they don't make $200k. When we try to explain that type of thing to the liberal snobs, they double down and start calling $100k earners "losers." The irony of the whole thing is that while the snobs put down average workers (forget $100k...I'm talking $40k) as rednecks, flyover ignoramuses, etc., they defend irresponsible people on welfare who have five illegitimate children and no way to support them.

Why do liberals look down upon hard-working middle Americans who support their families and defend to the death those who don't even work for a living and live off taxpayer largesse?

Is this the post you are talking about?
http://www.dcurbanmom.com/jforum/posts/list/641523.page

How do you know the political affiliations of the posters?

Yes, yes....that's the thread.

I figure they were liberals just by the way they responded to the OP's argument - that liberals lost the election because they are out of touch with average workers, and make them ignored and like losers when educated people making $100k or families making $200k act as if those decidedly above-average incomes are barely allowing them to get by. How, the point was, does that make the "real" family, HHI about $55k, feel?

Instead of acknowledging that there was a point there, these well-paid professionals came out swinging, calling the people in the low six-figure bracket losers, screw-ups, failures, etc. No recognition whatsover on the point just made - that when liberals don't realize how they make aversge earners feel like shit, they lose elections. Who else but liberals would have responded that way, since the message was directed at liberals?

So your predisposition is to assume that it's liberals who don't care about people with 5-figure incomes? Okay, but that's not consistent with the philosophical underpinnings of liberalism, like at all.

FWIW, I'm pretty liberal, and I've got a high 6 figure HHI and supported OP's point many times. Ironically, I thought the people continuing to cry poor at $200K HHI and calling OP a loser were either trolls, self-centered jerks, or the courteous ones were conservatives

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:m'eh, she's not saying anything I haven't read here a hundred times already.There is a visceral disdain for middle America among many people here. So much, and so common, that I can't tell if it's a legit post or not. Look at some of the pics in some of the other threads about toning down the hostility. There's actually a photo of a guy holding a sign that says F*ck Middle America". That seems pretty legit to me.

Yeah, how do you tell if it's a troll or not, haha? You can see the same stuff in virtually every post that touches anything related to class, Ivy schools, even driving habits! Urbanites are some catty mofos that like to cast asparagus on people from flyover country.

That's a flipping hilarious autocorrect, I think.

"I toss my asparagus at you, peon."

On another note, there seems to be a concerted effort to cast the Democrat Party as snide and superior elitists. Dems have their problems, but this does not describe not the bulk of the party.

Does anyone have any leads on whether this is a concerted part of Republican talking points? I'm serious -- it has really ramped up, both with overgeneralization criticisms and apparent sockpuppets.

What's up?

I didn't realize how elitists the urban liberals were until I started reading DCUM. (And the disdain, too, even as demonstrated in the post above- what is it that anytime someone has a different opinion than you, they're accused of spitting out Republican talking points? The implication is that we can't think for ourselves.)

For starters, stop castigating successful and educated career people as failures simply because they don't make $200k. When we try to explain that type of thing to the liberal snobs, they double down and start calling $100k earners "losers." The irony of the whole thing is that while the snobs put down average workers (forget $100k...I'm talking $40k) as rednecks, flyover ignoramuses, etc., they defend irresponsible people on welfare who have five illegitimate children and no way to support them.

Why do liberals look down upon hard-working middle Americans who support their families and defend to the death those who don't even work for a living and live off taxpayer largesse?

I was wondering about this too, and I've got a working theory. Perhaps these liberals see the working class middle America types as being similar to them in some significant or visceral ways (whether it's family background, work ethic, skin color, etc.). So the fact that these people haven't achieved in the ways that these liberals have achieved makes the liberals think less of them. ("If I manage to succeed, why the hell can't you?"). It builds contempt.

However, they see the non-workers who survive largely on government subsidies as being "other" in relation to them. They can't relate to these people and have nothing but the lowest expectations for them (if any). The liberals don't regard these people as fellow autonomous humans possessing their own agency and will. What they feel for these people may be closer to pity (like you might feel toward a seemingly helpless stray dog).