Question for people 50+

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hasn't been and you have to thank the Dems for this disaster.

When Reagan was elected the media went crazy also.

But with more humor and less fear.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://www.indyweek.com/indyweek/from-nixon-to-trump-the-parallels-between-1968-and-2016/Content?oid=5086105

I am almost 50, and so only barely remember the political divisions regarding the Vietnam War and then Richard Nixon. My MIL, who accompanied me to the Mall on Saturday, said that she participated in the 1968 Chicago protests. The article cited above theorizes that just as the civil rights, women's movement, and endless foreign wars created a traditionalists vs. progressives split that gave rise to Nixon, similar conditions existed in this election cycle.

My fear is that unlike the Nixon era, which had Nixon vs. a Democrat-controlled Congress---Trump is completely unfettered, as the GOP has shown that it is willing to overlook anything in order to keep power (and from alienating Trump's populist supporters).

Born around 67? You don't remember anything about Vietnam or Nixon.

As for Trump unfettered. He will do his best to piss off both parties from time to time. Then you have those who will politically suck up to America through Trump. For instance, the Democrat proposal of a 1 Trillion Dollar infrastructure plan.

That said, as much as I dislike the man, he will be better at working deals than Obama.

I'm not the person you're responding to, but I was born in 1967 and yes I do remember lots about Nixon. I also remember something about Vietnam. How is it you think we can't remember 1974?

Because you were in 2nd grade in 74?

You remember reruns and docs made well after the fact. There was no CNN, Fox etc. and cable was rare. Much of the news was gathered through newspapers and magazines with 30 minutes of national news in the evening. Not to mention an understanding of government and what was really happening. When you were six did you understand the ramifications of the Saturday Night Massacre?

Yeah, I was born in 1966 (I'm the PP who said I don't remember Nixon but do remember gas lines), and I tend to agree with this. It surprises me that people my age say they have "clear" memories of anything that happened in the late 60s or early 70s unless it touched them personally. (If you had a much-older sibling, or a father, in Vietnam, I can imagine you might have had a heightened interest in the war, even at age 6.) When I was sitting here wracking my brains, thinking about what I remembered from that period, I thought, "Oh, what about the hostages that were taken at the Munich Olympics, I remember that.") But then I looked it up and that happened in the summer of '72; I hadn't even started first grade. There's no way I remember that; I barely remember what my first grade teacher looked like. Hell, we moved to a new house that year--a big event for a 6-year-old--and I don't remember it at all. What I "remember" about the Munich Olympics is what I've learned about it since.

But people's recall does differ. One of my teens has tremendous recall of early childhood events. It's truly amazing. The other barely seems to have been conscious before age 7, LOL; he remembers very little of his early years.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hasn't been and you have to thank the Dems for this disaster.

When Reagan was elected the media went crazy also.

But with more humor and less fear.

Agree. I was 14 when Reagan was elected; I was not a fan, but I remember nothing like what is happening now.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hasn't been and you have to thank the Dems for this disaster.

OP, I'm a dem and participating and proud of it. I think you have your leader to thank for it for making no effort to unify and every effort to divide.

Just trying to put all this in some type of historical perspective

History will record the culpability of he Democratic in bringing us Trump.

History will record the culpability of those who voted for Trump in bringing us Trump

And the GOP who went along with him. I'm still hoping they will stand up at some point to some of this nonsense but I'm not super hopeful.

[Anonymous]

NP. Born in 65. Agree that Nixon and watergate truly did leave an impression on young kids, as did Vietnam. Body bags are one of my earliest memories. I'll grant you that the protests seemed more remote. You may be forgetting the event that nightly news was in those days. But the difference was that people were shocked at events. What has been astounding is that people seem so flippant. As if nothing bad can happen. Maybe the big difference was that there was a draft and there was a real cost to families and neighborhoods and now we've completely separated from our volunteer military. It's become acceptable to blithely spit a "thank you for your service " rather than consider how words can lead to events that require the use of military force.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am 31. I have never seen sustained political resistance and opposition like this towards a president before in my life that I can remember.

Is there a comparison in modern history?

The only good answer is NO.

The people making Kent State or LBJ or Nixon or Reagan or whoever out to be as big or bigger are clueless.

This is a deeper and potentially much more serious rift in the society. You have to go back to at least the 1930s of perhaps the 1860s to get as serious a fissure, one that basically involves the most entrenched in society coming under (potentially fatal for their position) attack.

One bit of intuition: the 2008 financial crisis happened, in no small measure, because basically everyone who remembered the period from the 1929 stock/property market collapse and the Great Depression, was dead by the 2003-2008 period. This current fissure is happening because no one who remembers the elite under threat in this country, which last happened in the 1930s, is alive. For better or for worse, the Trump administration represents a challenge to many of the elite sectors in society and that is what drives the most intense opposition.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hasn't been and you have to thank the Dems for this disaster.

When Reagan was elected the media went crazy also.

But with more humor and less fear.

Agree. I was 14 when Reagan was elected; I was not a fan, but I remember nothing like what is happening now.

I am not a fan of Reagan. I think he did a lot of horrible stuff as president that we are still paying for now in many ways. That being said, he acted like a grown up in his personal behavior, and had some experience with governing as governor of a large state and even as the head of the actors union. He didn't read and wasn't the brightest bulb, he hired a lot of ethically-challenged people (Oliver North) but he also didn't go about insulting and bullying, he released his taxes, and didn't come into office facing a sh!tload of conflicts of interest. Also, he could construct a coherent sentence. And he was a better actor.

That is the difference between him and Trump.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There hasn't been and you have to thank the Dems for this disaster.

When Reagan was elected the media went crazy also.

But with more humor and less fear.

Agree. I was 14 when Reagan was elected; I was not a fan, but I remember nothing like what is happening now.

+1

He was a "dumb actor" who loved jelly beans. We thought he had dementia. We often thought he was embarrassing, but when first elected no one imagined his forthcoming legislative success.

Bruce Bartlett, architect of the Reagan tax plan, wrote early last year about how those tax plans were enacted. Check the second to last paragraph here about how Dems thought it was no big deal and would actually help their chances in 1984. Nothing like the shrill tone of today:

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/02/jack-kemps-power-lesson-for-hillary-clinton/470049/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am 31. I have never seen sustained political resistance and opposition like this towards a president before in my life that I can remember.

Is there a comparison in modern history?

The only good answer is NO.

The people making Kent State or LBJ or Nixon or Reagan or whoever out to be as big or bigger are clueless.

This is a deeper and potentially much more serious rift in the society. You have to go back to at least the 1930s of perhaps the 1860s to get as serious a fissure, one that basically involves the most entrenched in society coming under (potentially fatal for their position) attack.

One bit of intuition: the 2008 financial crisis happened, in no small measure, because basically everyone who remembered the period from the 1929 stock/property market collapse and the Great Depression, was dead by the 2003-2008 period. This current fissure is happening because no one who remembers the elite under threat in this country, which last happened in the 1930s, is alive. For better or for worse, the Trump administration represents a challenge to many of the elite sectors in society and that is what drives the most intense opposition.

I disagree. Maybe the Trump administration should be a challenge to some of the elite sectors in society, but it's not.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am 31. I have never seen sustained political resistance and opposition like this towards a president before in my life that I can remember.

Is there a comparison in modern history?

The only good answer is NO.

The people making Kent State or LBJ or Nixon or Reagan or whoever out to be as big or bigger are clueless.

This is a deeper and potentially much more serious rift in the society. You have to go back to at least the 1930s of perhaps the 1860s to get as serious a fissure, one that basically involves the most entrenched in society coming under (potentially fatal for their position) attack.

One bit of intuition: the 2008 financial crisis happened, in no small measure, because basically everyone who remembered the period from the 1929 stock/property market collapse and the Great Depression, was dead by the 2003-2008 period. This current fissure is happening because no one who remembers the elite under threat in this country, which last happened in the 1930s, is alive. For better or for worse, the Trump administration represents a challenge to many of the elite sectors in society and that is what drives the most intense opposition.

+100

And the Holocaust survivors are almost all dead. The two remaining on my wife's side of the family are absolutely terrified by Trump and spoke against him at our annual family reunion in late October. Unfortunately, the younger generations are just rolling their eyes and saying "This time, it's different."

I think that's truly what's sparking this neo-authoritarian reaction. The vast majority of us are two generations removed from those times, we have zero personal experience. No one remembers what it was like to live in the build up to authoritarianism and how norms were gradually shed. The history books only tell us about the after effects (XX million died, XX countries destroyed, etc)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP: start reading here:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Left

Notice some of the names listed:

Tom Hayden (d. Oct. 2016) - former husband of Jane Fonda.

William Ayers - a domestic terrorist leader of the "Weather Underground" who, upon acquittal said "guilty as sin, free as a bird!" - his girlfriend died when a bomb they were working on exploded in their NYC basement. He also ghost-wrote president Obama's book.

These leaders came out of the 1960s/70s and were far more radical than today.

No he did not. Stop spewing out "alternative facts."

However, I do agree there were a lot more radical protesters back in the 1960s and early 70s, not just in the US but in Europe.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am 31. I have never seen sustained political resistance and opposition like this towards a president before in my life that I can remember.

Is there a comparison in modern history?

The only good answer is NO.

The people making Kent State or LBJ or Nixon or Reagan or whoever out to be as big or bigger are clueless.

This is a deeper and potentially much more serious rift in the society. You have to go back to at least the 1930s of perhaps the 1860s to get as serious a fissure, one that basically involves the most entrenched in society coming under (potentially fatal for their position) attack.

One bit of intuition: the 2008 financial crisis happened, in no small measure, because basically everyone who remembered the period from the 1929 stock/property market collapse and the Great Depression, was dead by the 2003-2008 period. This current fissure is happening because no one who remembers the elite under threat in this country, which last happened in the 1930s, is alive. For better or for worse, the Trump administration represents a challenge to many of the elite sectors in society and that is what drives the most intense opposition.

I disagree. Maybe the Trump administration should be a challenge to some of the elite sectors in society, but it's not.

PP you're disagreeing with responding.

Trump is not a challenge to ALL elites in the society. But, and I say this as someone from the elite sectors feeling most under fire, he is absolutely a challenge to many folks who thought they made the rules of the game. That's basically why there is at least as much, if not more, shrill nonsense (i.e. Russia scare, Comey obsession, etc.) then there is a serious challenge to his weaknesses. These elite folks never, ever thought they would have to fight this fight and they have no clue what to do.

Just to be very, very clear: none of this is pro-Trump.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am 31. I have never seen sustained political resistance and opposition like this towards a president before in my life that I can remember.

Is there a comparison in modern history?

The only good answer is NO.

The people making Kent State or LBJ or Nixon or Reagan or whoever out to be as big or bigger are clueless.

This is a deeper and potentially much more serious rift in the society. You have to go back to at least the 1930s of perhaps the 1860s to get as serious a fissure, one that basically involves the most entrenched in society coming under (potentially fatal for their position) attack.

One bit of intuition: the 2008 financial crisis happened, in no small measure, because basically everyone who remembered the period from the 1929 stock/property market collapse and the Great Depression, was dead by the 2003-2008 period. This current fissure is happening because no one who remembers the elite under threat in this country, which last happened in the 1930s, is alive. For better or for worse, the Trump administration represents a challenge to many of the elite sectors in society and that is what drives the most intense opposition.

Do you really think the country wasn't completely splintered during the Civil Rights era? Maybe it was suppressed more than it is today. But that was a really violent time for people of color and their white supporters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm 50 with clear recollection of Nixon's resignation and the month leading up to it. Since then, I don't think I've seen a president who is as disliked as Trump seems to be.

Same. He's not like a typical opposition party president. We've lived through many of those.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I am 31. I have never seen sustained political resistance and opposition like this towards a president before in my life that I can remember.

Is there a comparison in modern history?

The only good answer is NO.

The people making Kent State or LBJ or Nixon or Reagan or whoever out to be as big or bigger are clueless.

This is a deeper and potentially much more serious rift in the society. You have to go back to at least the 1930s of perhaps the 1860s to get as serious a fissure, one that basically involves the most entrenched in society coming under (potentially fatal for their position) attack.

One bit of intuition: the 2008 financial crisis happened, in no small measure, because basically everyone who remembered the period from the 1929 stock/property market collapse and the Great Depression, was dead by the 2003-2008 period. This current fissure is happening because no one who remembers the elite under threat in this country, which last happened in the 1930s, is alive. For better or for worse, the Trump administration represents a challenge to many of the elite sectors in society and that is what drives the most intense opposition.

+100

And the Holocaust survivors are almost all dead. The two remaining on my wife's side of the family are absolutely terrified by Trump and spoke against him at our annual family reunion in late October. Unfortunately, the younger generations are just rolling their eyes and saying "This time, it's different."

I think that's truly what's sparking this neo-authoritarian reaction. The vast majority of us are two generations removed from those times, we have zero personal experience. No one remembers what it was like to live in the build up to authoritarianism and how norms were gradually shed. The history books only tell us about the after effects (XX million died, XX countries destroyed, etc)

One of the great struggles of human societies is never forgetting that whatever badness happened in the past was done by people remarkably like them. One of the worst parts of American exceptionalism is the belief that we can't redo the ugliness that happened in other places and times.

Personally, I thought the only reasonable candidate to challenge the demagoguery of DJT was the candidate who can point to a list of relatives lost in the Shoah. I don't believe this was a coincidence.