Change to HGC Testing to make it more accessible to a more "diversified" group?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think more secrecy about the test would actually be better. No one should be prepping for these at all. People who seek out information about he test through back channels and tutors are 100% cheating. MCPS should be able to use any methods they want to select students.

How is it cheating? I'm the PP who says they should make the test public.

People prep for everything! It's called being prepared and knowing what to expect. You do better when you're aware of what is expected.

Do you think SAT prep courses are also cheating?

At least if everyone knew, then everyone could have the opportunity to prep.

The purpose of the HGC is to create a cohort of highly gifted children. Not to accommodate your well prepped, middling child.

Despite what you think.

No the purpose is to be able to bunch "traditional high achievers" who couldn't afforded to live in a better zone into a scheltered school within a school concept. Let's not forget gifted is code for potential and let's be honest who has more potential here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what we did. And I don't feel the tiniest bit of guilt. There were questions in the book that were easy to answer but would be difficult for kids who had never seen that type of question before.

Of course the questions are easier after the child has seen and practiced doing that type of question. The point of the test is to separate out the kids who can understand and answer questions of a type they've never seen before, the kids who can figure out how to do problems without an adult telling them how.

A kid who can figure out those questions without being told in advance how to do them might really need and benefit from a different kind of education. The kid who can't do it on his own but can remember how he is taught to answer a question will probably do fine in a regular classroom.

How do you know prepping a student helps that much? Remember these are not achievement tests but cognitive assessment. What that means is you can't really study for it. Where it likely helps is that kids become familiarized with the format. I don't, however, see the connection with the content.

I didn't say I know that it helps that much, I'm just responding to the quote above in which the poster said that the questions were easy but difficult for a kid who had never seen them before. That is the point of those questions: to see which kids can understand and answer them even though they've never seen questions like that before.

One of the indications of high intelligence is the ability to understand and figure out new problems. Being familiar with the format can make a difference in that it takes away the ability of the testers to see how the child deals with a new type of problem. The content does not matter as much, it is the fact that the child has become familiar with the format that changes what is being tested.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what we did. And I don't feel the tiniest bit of guilt. There were questions in the book that were easy to answer but would be difficult for kids who had never seen that type of question before.

Of course the questions are easier after the child has seen and practiced doing that type of question. The point of the test is to separate out the kids who can understand and answer questions of a type they've never seen before, the kids who can figure out how to do problems without an adult telling them how.

A kid who can figure out those questions without being told in advance how to do them might really need and benefit from a different kind of education. The kid who can't do it on his own but can remember how he is taught to answer a question will probably do fine in a regular classroom.

How do you know prepping a student helps that much? Remember these are not achievement tests but cognitive assessment. What that means is you can't really study for it. Where it likely helps is that kids become familiarized with the format. I don't, however, see the connection with the content.

I didn't say I know that it helps that much, I'm just responding to the quote above in which the poster said that the questions were easy but difficult for a kid who had never seen them before. That is the point of those questions: to see which kids can understand and answer them even though they've never seen questions like that before.

One of the indications of high intelligence is the ability to understand and figure out new problems. Being familiar with the format can make a difference in that it takes away the ability of the testers to see how the child deals with a new type of problem. The content does not matter as much, it is the fact that the child has become familiar with the format that changes what is being tested.

I think the new problem for the kid should be the content itself, not the format of the content.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what we did. And I don't feel the tiniest bit of guilt. There were questions in the book that were easy to answer but would be difficult for kids who had never seen that type of question before.

Of course the questions are easier after the child has seen and practiced doing that type of question. The point of the test is to separate out the kids who can understand and answer questions of a type they've never seen before, the kids who can figure out how to do problems without an adult telling them how.

A kid who can figure out those questions without being told in advance how to do them might really need and benefit from a different kind of education. The kid who can't do it on his own but can remember how he is taught to answer a question will probably do fine in a regular classroom.

How do you know prepping a student helps that much? Remember these are not achievement tests but cognitive assessment. What that means is you can't really study for it. Where it likely helps is that kids become familiarized with the format. I don't, however, see the connection with the content.

I didn't say I know that it helps that much, I'm just responding to the quote above in which the poster said that the questions were easy but difficult for a kid who had never seen them before. That is the point of those questions: to see which kids can understand and answer them even though they've never seen questions like that before.

One of the indications of high intelligence is the ability to understand and figure out new problems. Being familiar with the format can make a difference in that it takes away the ability of the testers to see how the child deals with a new type of problem. The content does not matter as much, it is the fact that the child has become familiar with the format that changes what is being tested.

I think the new problem for the kid should be the content itself, not the format of the content.

You are right. The PP argument is thin at best.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:A well known and widely accepted standardized test is more credible than one someone in the county with questionable qualifications simply made up. Further, using our kids in this half-baked science experiment is a bad idea.

When the county rolls their own test, you can bet it's just an end run around the law. It won't be to identify the most highly gifted but the most highly gifted cohort THAT meats their demographic quotas in order to close the achievement gap. This is a sneaky way to insert an illegal quota system instead of actually addressing the underlying problems.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:A well known and widely accepted standardized test is more credible than one someone in the county with questionable qualifications simply made up. Further, using our kids in this half-baked science experiment is a bad idea.

When the county rolls their own test, you can bet it's just an end run around the law. It won't be to identify the most highly gifted but the most highly gifted cohort THAT meats their demographic quotas in order to close the achievement gap. This is a sneaky way to insert an illegal quota system instead of actually addressing the underlying problems.

Nobody knows what the county is doing at this stage, but it's easier to move the goal posts than put in the work.

[Anonymous]

In America, there is such a great emphasis on success being about hard work. It's gotten to a point where we are advised not to say "Good Job" or "You are so smart!" and compliment them on their grit, and effort. Yet, some people look down so harshly when kids work hard to get where they need to be. I just don't get it. If kids work hard to get in, let it be!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think more secrecy about the test would actually be better. No one should be prepping for these at all. People who seek out information about he test through back channels and tutors are 100% cheating. MCPS should be able to use any methods they want to select students.

How is it cheating? I'm the PP who says they should make the test public.

People prep for everything! It's called being prepared and knowing what to expect. You do better when you're aware of what is expected.

Do you think SAT prep courses are also cheating?

At least if everyone knew, then everyone could have the opportunity to prep.

The purpose of the HGC is to create a cohort of highly gifted children. Not to accommodate your well prepped, middling child.

Despite what you think.

No the purpose is to be able to bunch "traditional high achievers" who couldn't afforded to live in a better zone into a scheltered school within a school concept. Let's not forget gifted is code for potential and let's be honest who has more potential here.

If this were true why do W school kids attend HGCs?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I think more secrecy about the test would actually be better. No one should be prepping for these at all. People who seek out information about he test through back channels and tutors are 100% cheating. MCPS should be able to use any methods they want to select students.

How is it cheating? I'm the PP who says they should make the test public.

People prep for everything! It's called being prepared and knowing what to expect. You do better when you're aware of what is expected.

Do you think SAT prep courses are also cheating?

At least if everyone knew, then everyone could have the opportunity to prep.

The purpose of the HGC is to create a cohort of highly gifted children. Not to accommodate your well prepped, middling child.

Despite what you think.

No the purpose is to be able to bunch "traditional high achievers" who couldn't afforded to live in a better zone into a scheltered school within a school concept. Let's not forget gifted is code for potential and let's be honest who has more potential here.

If this were true why do W school kids attend HGCs?

Because not all W school feeder schools are that great.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The county being secretive about this doesn't inspire confidence.

This.

What is the issue with MCPS not being more transparent?

Make it known what test they are using. It would help kids across the board. Right now, only Asian and White parents afford the testing prep classes. Make it more transparent so kids of ALL races can get access to practice tests.

Well said. I said this to Meredith Casper who was (still is?) head of the programs in the main office. I also wrote to the Board of Education about it. By making the tests secret, only well-off can spend the $2,000 to get a tutor to replicate the test.

You are so full of BS. Most Asian and white kids don't prep. There is a weirdo on this board who always claims that the only reason Asian kids are getting in in higher numbers is because they spend thousands of dollars preparing for the test. The reason they get in is because their parents value the programs and work hard to find ways to supplement their education no matter what their income. If they are poor they borrow books from their friends or go to the library and borrow a Cogat book FOR FREE. They tutor their kids themselves. Please do not begrudge parents for working hard and making their kids work hard. Their kids deserve to get in more than my kid who doesn't do any of that stuff.

I can tell that your kid 'doesn't do any of that stuff', otherwise you'd know that 'the library' doesn't carry Cogat books. Well, the Library of Congress, probably, does, but that's the only place I can think of that might. In fact, Mercer Publishing owns the rights to the test and they guard it like crazy; only two test samples are available for purchase. And that's precisely the reason Dr Li and the likes of him charge thousands of dollars for prep - they must have come up with numerous similar questions and go through them with kids actually explaining how to tackle the problem.

If you go to Amazon, pay 30 bucks for one available test and make your child go through it, yes, your kid will be familiar with the format, but your child's score won't go up significantly.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In America, there is such a great emphasis on success being about hard work. It's gotten to a point where we are advised not to say "Good Job" or "You are so smart!" and compliment them on their grit, and effort. Yet, some people look down so harshly when kids work hard to get where they need to be. I just don't get it. If kids work hard to get in, let it be!

So true!

I own a business and honestly, I would take a 'middling' kid who is a hard worker over a 'gifted' kid who isn't interested in working as hard.

Hard work and persistence/determination go a long way in ANY situation - work, sports, academics.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what we did. And I don't feel the tiniest bit of guilt. There were questions in the book that were easy to answer but would be difficult for kids who had never seen that type of question before.

Of course the questions are easier after the child has seen and practiced doing that type of question. The point of the test is to separate out the kids who can understand and answer questions of a type they've never seen before, the kids who can figure out how to do problems without an adult telling them how.

A kid who can figure out those questions without being told in advance how to do them might really need and benefit from a different kind of education. The kid who can't do it on his own but can remember how he is taught to answer a question will probably do fine in a regular classroom.

How do you know prepping a student helps that much? Remember these are not achievement tests but cognitive assessment. What that means is you can't really study for it. Where it likely helps is that kids become familiarized with the format. I don't, however, see the connection with the content.

I didn't say I know that it helps that much, I'm just responding to the quote above in which the poster said that the questions were easy but difficult for a kid who had never seen them before. That is the point of those questions: to see which kids can understand and answer them even though they've never seen questions like that before.

One of the indications of high intelligence is the ability to understand and figure out new problems. Being familiar with the format can make a difference in that it takes away the ability of the testers to see how the child deals with a new type of problem. The content does not matter as much, it is the fact that the child has become familiar with the format that changes what is being tested.

I think the new problem for the kid should be the content itself, not the format of the content.

You are right. The PP argument is thin at best.

For the middle school magnet test, MCPS does publish a test booklet so that students can familiarize themselves with the format. They also do sample questions before they take the test. The test is still hard but this way they are testing content and not format.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

This is what we did. And I don't feel the tiniest bit of guilt. There were questions in the book that were easy to answer but would be difficult for kids who had never seen that type of question before.

Of course the questions are easier after the child has seen and practiced doing that type of question. The point of the test is to separate out the kids who can understand and answer questions of a type they've never seen before, the kids who can figure out how to do problems without an adult telling them how.

A kid who can figure out those questions without being told in advance how to do them might really need and benefit from a different kind of education. The kid who can't do it on his own but can remember how he is taught to answer a question will probably do fine in a regular classroom.

How do you know prepping a student helps that much? Remember these are not achievement tests but cognitive assessment. What that means is you can't really study for it. Where it likely helps is that kids become familiarized with the format. I don't, however, see the connection with the content.

I didn't say I know that it helps that much, I'm just responding to the quote above in which the poster said that the questions were easy but difficult for a kid who had never seen them before. That is the point of those questions: to see which kids can understand and answer them even though they've never seen questions like that before.

One of the indications of high intelligence is the ability to understand and figure out new problems. Being familiar with the format can make a difference in that it takes away the ability of the testers to see how the child deals with a new type of problem. The content does not matter as much, it is the fact that the child has become familiar with the format that changes what is being tested.

I think the new problem for the kid should be the content itself, not the format of the content.

You are right. The PP argument is thin at best.

I'm surprised that this is so difficult for some to understand.

Once you know how to do a problem, the content doesn't matter, you just plug the variables into the framework or formula that you've learned. It takes much more intelligence to figure out the formula on your own than to have someone teach you how to do it.

[Anonymous]

You must not be familiar with the test or the available prep books and classes. It doesn't help that much and no one has the actual test in advance. It's like getting an SAT prep book and going through it.

[Anonymous]

I remember my daughter talking about a problem where they showed you a piece of paper with an x on it and then showed you how the paper was folded and asked you where the x would appear in the folded version. Doesn't seem like something you can prep for like the SAT prep. It is not like refreshing on math concepts. This was 5 years ago.