Crazy jealous of all these big law firm salaries!

[Anonymous]

I am a partner at the DC office of a NY firm. I work in a regulatory practice so my chances of making partner were pretty typical for my firm. All of our reg lawyers are in DC. The litigators and transactional associates all eventually had to move to nyc (or have dual offices) to make partner.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Lol Biglaw lawyers complaining about 80 hours a week making 300+. You do know that there are bunch of jobs with similar hours but much less pay? Accountants for example? Ceiling 100k if you lucky, 4 months a year you forget you have home! Working till 2am with no weekends. And yeah you can't take "work home" as it is illegal actually to take anything home.
Think about it next time you complain.

THANK YOU.
I think lawyers forget that other people work a lot of hours, too. Those of us who work the same but for nonprofits, government, etc. (and yes we exist) make almost nothing comparatively. It's not that I want to be big law or any law, it sounds totally soul-sucking, but I think that many many lawyers in this town are myopic about the fact that not everyone is balancing their hours with the same salary.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol Biglaw lawyers complaining about 80 hours a week making 300+. You do know that there are bunch of jobs with similar hours but much less pay? Accountants for example? Ceiling 100k if you lucky, 4 months a year you forget you have home! Working till 2am with no weekends. And yeah you can't take "work home" as it is illegal actually to take anything home.
Think about it next time you complain.

THANK YOU.
I think lawyers forget that other people work a lot of hours, too. Those of us who work the same but for nonprofits, government, etc. (and yes we exist) make almost nothing comparatively. It's not that I want to be big law or any law, it sounds totally soul-sucking, but I think that many many lawyers in this town are myopic about the fact that not everyone is balancing their hours with the same salary.

?

I've never heard of a non-profit/government position that consistently runs at big law hours (short of being at the absolute top of the food chain). Sure, some of those positions may occasionally run as busy as big law, but not on a daily basis.

I worked full time in a real career that was paying me six figures while doing law school part time. I graduated in the top 10% of my class, made law review, etc.... I likened it to having two full time jobs and I was operating on about 5 hours of sleep per night.

I eventually left big law for investment banking.

Those four years in law school were a total cake walk compared to my time in big law and I've found investment banking to be less stressful than big law, though the hours can get up there.

The things that are tough to appreciate about big law until you do it:

1. Big law is perfectly positioned. The only bad thing for big law is the status quo. As long as general economic conditions are improving or deteriorating, big law firms will have work to do. The vast majority of industries and service providers are much more sensitive to economic conditions, but it also means those industries can build into down time into their economic models.

2. Big law firms sell the delivery of perfection on a substantive and procedural basis with the promise of a quick turn around. A few weeks ago, I was under a time crunch and called my outside counsel in a Friday morning. I asked counsel to deliver work product in final form to me by the following Tuesday morning. Ordinarily, it would take four weeks to do what I was asking for.

3. There is virtually nothing gained from getting better at your job. Because you bill by the hour, efficiencies that come with experience accrue no gains to the individual lawyer. In the vast majority of professional fields, getting good at your job means your life gets better in some form or fashion. Want to leave early on Ftiday to get a head start on a vacation or the holiday weekend? In many jobs that just means working harder during the week. In big law, especially at junior levels, it's almost impossible to pull this off.

4. Vacations: Even in banking, when I go on vacation, my boss expects me to be offline. In fact, I'm now willing vacation in remote places. In big law, at a junior level going on vacation means taking your laptop, being available and regularely checking in. As you become more senior it really means taking your family on vacation while you work from the hotel/office in your vacation home. This of course assumes that you didn't decide at the last second that your family would go on the big family vacation without you.

5. The proof is in the pudding: big law people age badly. As collective groups, I've been around engineers, doctors, accountants, investment bankers and commercial bankers. Nobody looks as worn out as the big law folks and it's the only profession I know of where grey hairs regularly show up for people in their late 20s and full heads of grey hair by late 30s are not a rare occurrence.

[Anonymous]

Pretty much any job would pay a lot if the hours reached 80-plus a week. Law school is a trade school for folks who lack other skills, and for men with small hands.

[Anonymous]

There are divisions and offices at DOJ that have notoriously bad hours, and travel to boot. This is one of the reasons why you have seasoned attorneys (especially in higher level managerial positions) who leave DOJ for private practice. The hours are similar, travel is similar, pay is multiple times more and you actually have decent support services (your own secretary, efficient HR, etc.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are divisions and offices at DOJ that have notoriously bad hours, and travel to boot. This is one of the reasons why you have seasoned attorneys (especially in higher level managerial positions) who leave DOJ for private practice. The hours are similar, travel is similar, pay is multiple times more and you actually have decent support services (your own secretary, efficient HR, etc.)

My husband is in one of these federal jobs in a supervisory role. 60-70 hours per week plus lots of work at home in the evenings and travel. The work is fascinating. However, the toll on our family is high--both because he is never around and I have to also have to work full time to be able to afford to live here.

[Anonymous]

Business owner here, who sometime uses Big Law as a client. I do appreciate that I can email them on a Saturday and they'll get back to me the same day.

Not a job I'd want though. I do check my emails and work 1-2 hours on weekends after everyone is in bed, but I work a total of 40-45 hours week, set my own schedule, and our HHI is very comfortable. I'm in tech.

[Anonymous]

Honestly, and this is not a new observation, the money is not worth the cost to most people. Big law is for people who live to work, not people who work to live.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol Biglaw lawyers complaining about 80 hours a week making 300+. You do know that there are bunch of jobs with similar hours but much less pay? Accountants for example? Ceiling 100k if you lucky, 4 months a year you forget you have home! Working till 2am with no weekends. And yeah you can't take "work home" as it is illegal actually to take anything home.
Think about it next time you complain.

THANK YOU.
I think lawyers forget that other people work a lot of hours, too. Those of us who work the same but for nonprofits, government, etc. (and yes we exist) make almost nothing comparatively. It's not that I want to be big law or any law, it sounds totally soul-sucking, but I think that many many lawyers in this town are myopic about the fact that not everyone is balancing their hours with the same salary.

?

I've never heard of a non-profit/government position that consistently runs at big law hours (short of being at the absolute top of the food chain). Sure, some of those positions may occasionally run as busy as big law, but not on a daily basis.

I worked full time in a real career that was paying me six figures while doing law school part time. I graduated in the top 10% of my class, made law review, etc.... I likened it to having two full time jobs and I was operating on about 5 hours of sleep per night.

I eventually left big law for investment banking.

Those four years in law school were a total cake walk compared to my time in big law and I've found investment banking to be less stressful than big law, though the hours can get up there.

The things that are tough to appreciate about big law until you do it:

1. Big law is perfectly positioned. The only bad thing for big law is the status quo. As long as general economic conditions are improving or deteriorating, big law firms will have work to do. The vast majority of industries and service providers are much more sensitive to economic conditions, but it also means those industries can build into down time into their economic models.

2. Big law firms sell the delivery of perfection on a substantive and procedural basis with the promise of a quick turn around. A few weeks ago, I was under a time crunch and called my outside counsel in a Friday morning. I asked counsel to deliver work product in final form to me by the following Tuesday morning. Ordinarily, it would take four weeks to do what I was asking for.

3. There is virtually nothing gained from getting better at your job. Because you bill by the hour, efficiencies that come with experience accrue no gains to the individual lawyer. In the vast majority of professional fields, getting good at your job means your life gets better in some form or fashion. Want to leave early on Ftiday to get a head start on a vacation or the holiday weekend? In many jobs that just means working harder during the week. In big law, especially at junior levels, it's almost impossible to pull this off.

4. Vacations: Even in banking, when I go on vacation, my boss expects me to be offline. In fact, I'm now willing vacation in remote places. In big law, at a junior level going on vacation means taking your laptop, being available and regularely checking in. As you become more senior it really means taking your family on vacation while you work from the hotel/office in your vacation home. This of course assumes that you didn't decide at the last second that your family would go on the big family vacation without you.

5. The proof is in the pudding: big law people age badly. As collective groups, I've been around engineers, doctors, accountants, investment bankers and commercial bankers. Nobody looks as worn out as the big law folks and it's the only profession I know of where grey hairs regularly show up for people in their late 20s and full heads of grey hair by late 30s are not a rare occurrence.

This poster has really nailed it. One of the biggest problems with Big Law is the fact that what you are providing the firm is hours worked. If attorneys at a firm are expected to bill 2200 hours a year, and you bill 2200 hours in ten months, no one at the firm is going to tell you to take off the next two months. Instead, people will expect you to bill 2600 for the year. It gets really old knowing that the goal posts will just keep moving no matter how hard you work.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:There are divisions and offices at DOJ that have notoriously bad hours, and travel to boot. This is one of the reasons why you have seasoned attorneys (especially in higher level managerial positions) who leave DOJ for private practice. The hours are similar, travel is similar, pay is multiple times more and you actually have decent support services (your own secretary, efficient HR, etc.)

But a lot less job security. . . 10 years max, up and out.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Lol Biglaw lawyers complaining about 80 hours a week making 300+. You do know that there are bunch of jobs with similar hours but much less pay? Accountants for example? Ceiling 100k if you lucky, 4 months a year you forget you have home! Working till 2am with no weekends. And yeah you can't take "work home" as it is illegal actually to take anything home.
Think about it next time you complain.

THANK YOU.
I think lawyers forget that other people work a lot of hours, too. Those of us who work the same but for nonprofits, government, etc. (and yes we exist) make almost nothing comparatively. It's not that I want to be big law or any law, it sounds totally soul-sucking, but I think that many many lawyers in this town are myopic about the fact that not everyone is balancing their hours with the same salary.

?

I've never heard of a non-profit/government position that consistently runs at big law hours (short of being at the absolute top of the food chain). Sure, some of those positions may occasionally run as busy as big law, but not on a daily basis.

I worked full time in a real career that was paying me six figures while doing law school part time. I graduated in the top 10% of my class, made law review, etc.... I likened it to having two full time jobs and I was operating on about 5 hours of sleep per night.

I eventually left big law for investment banking.

Those four years in law school were a total cake walk compared to my time in big law and I've found investment banking to be less stressful than big law, though the hours can get up there.

The things that are tough to appreciate about big law until you do it:

1. Big law is perfectly positioned. The only bad thing for big law is the status quo. As long as general economic conditions are improving or deteriorating, big law firms will have work to do. The vast majority of industries and service providers are much more sensitive to economic conditions, but it also means those industries can build into down time into their economic models.

2. Big law firms sell the delivery of perfection on a substantive and procedural basis with the promise of a quick turn around. A few weeks ago, I was under a time crunch and called my outside counsel in a Friday morning. I asked counsel to deliver work product in final form to me by the following Tuesday morning. Ordinarily, it would take four weeks to do what I was asking for.

3. There is virtually nothing gained from getting better at your job. Because you bill by the hour, efficiencies that come with experience accrue no gains to the individual lawyer. In the vast majority of professional fields, getting good at your job means your life gets better in some form or fashion. Want to leave early on Ftiday to get a head start on a vacation or the holiday weekend? In many jobs that just means working harder during the week. In big law, especially at junior levels, it's almost impossible to pull this off.

4. Vacations: Even in banking, when I go on vacation, my boss expects me to be offline. In fact, I'm now willing vacation in remote places. In big law, at a junior level going on vacation means taking your laptop, being available and regularely checking in. As you become more senior it really means taking your family on vacation while you work from the hotel/office in your vacation home. This of course assumes that you didn't decide at the last second that your family would go on the big family vacation without you.

5. The proof is in the pudding: big law people age badly. As collective groups, I've been around engineers, doctors, accountants, investment bankers and commercial bankers. Nobody looks as worn out as the big law folks and it's the only profession I know of where grey hairs regularly show up for people in their late 20s and full heads of grey hair by late 30s are not a rare occurrence.

How did you get into investment banking from law?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I am a partner at the DC office of a NY firm. I work in a regulatory practice so my chances of making partner were pretty typical for my firm. All of our reg lawyers are in DC. The litigators and transactional associates all eventually had to move to nyc (or have dual offices) to make partner.

Were you a lateral from the Government? I've heard the NYC firms chew up and spit out DC associates in regulatory practices who don't have first-hand government experience. Usually the associates get fed up and leave after seeing so many of their peers stuck in non-equity positions.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are divisions and offices at DOJ that have notoriously bad hours, and travel to boot. This is one of the reasons why you have seasoned attorneys (especially in higher level managerial positions) who leave DOJ for private practice. The hours are similar, travel is similar, pay is multiple times more and you actually have decent support services (your own secretary, efficient HR, etc.)

But a lot less job security. . . 10 years max, up and out.

At that level (high level management @ DOJ to equity partner at a firm), the concern is less about job security and more about revolving doors.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are divisions and offices at DOJ that have notoriously bad hours, and travel to boot. This is one of the reasons why you have seasoned attorneys (especially in higher level managerial positions) who leave DOJ for private practice. The hours are similar, travel is similar, pay is multiple times more and you actually have decent support services (your own secretary, efficient HR, etc.)

But a lot less job security. . . 10 years max, up and out.

At that level (high level management @ DOJ to equity partner at a firm), the concern is less about job security and more about revolving doors.

If you are a senior DOJ lawyer, it's fairly easy to land an equity partnership at a law firm, but they expect you to generate major business after your recusal period is over. If that doesn't happen, well, you'll probably be back at DOJ or applying for in-house jobs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:They're earned, to say the least.

Not really.

Not really? Lawyers at firms don't have to work hard? and a lot? Wonder what my dh is doing all the time at work and while he's up all hours of the night working in our home office. Hmmmm.....I'd better take a closer look.

I think the point is that attorneys are not the only ones working brutal hours, or working hard. I don't blame folks for taking what the market offers, but I'd love to see a bit of self-awareness.

/wife of Biglaw associate

Thanks for this. I swear people with high-paying professional degrees have their heads up their butts about what kinds of hours other people work. My parents are both MDs (and so is their social circle), and whenever I mentioned to anyone that I wasn't studying medicine the first response was, "Oh, you don't want to work as hard as your parents." Yeah, whatever. DH and I both have PhDs and work in the private sector. I won't even talk about some of the hours I worked while I was doing research, and while I have a better schedule now DH's is very grueling and involves a lot of last minute international travel as well. We earn good money because we are in the private sector, but I know a ton of people who work similar hours without anywhere near the same level of compensation.

Sure, Big Law lawyers work hard, but so do a lot of other people who don't have the financial renumeration to show for it.

I have a PhD in organic chemistry from a gruelingly competitive research lab. (My advisor was gunning for the Nobel Prize.) It didn6't even come close to being as rough as my time in Biglaw. Research is largely done at your own pace. If you make a mistake, it's yours to fix. The hours are long, but often monotonous. In BigLaw you have to account for and justify every 6 minutes. Errors are called out in a brutal fashion. You are constantly at the mercy of your email. The intensity just doesn't compare.