Atheists/Humanists: Do you feel anxiety over death?

[Anonymous]

The idea of dying young gives me anxiety. I want to grow old and watch my kid grow up and all that. But it's a sense of sadness

I think it's sad our lives are short compared to the universe. But I've come to acceptance about that. I just want to see my kids grow up, that's all.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:So...whenever religious people talk amongst ourselves about stuff like this, I have literally never heard anyone put down atheists or even reference atheists at all.. Not even, "at least I'll feel smug that I wasn't an atheist!" No religious person talks like that, unless they are a cartoon on TV or an actual fanatic. Most people who are believers (and also not fanatic Christian evangelists, which most of us aren't) are happy to just let atheists do their thing and never bring it up.

So when atheists are doing the offhand-condescension move, like, "well I wish I could be dumb enough to believe in god, what a pity I'm not dumb," with the obvious implication that anyone who differs in opinion is dumb, I kinda lose respect for you guys. And I don't see a big difference between you and the evangelists. Just saying.

I agree with you that the "dumb" comment above was out of line. But I also think you're putting blinders on if you don't think a huge percentage of believers are biased against athiests. See, for example, the person who +1000ed you below who has out of hand rejected a dozen people telling him it would be personally hard for them to accept God by saying they are actively trying to force God out of their lives. But more importantly, I think there's a strong argument that athiests are literally the group it is most acceptable to overtly discriminate against in public life. See, for example, polls showing that less than half of people could vote for an atheist or agnostic for president. Why? Because they don't accept one particular non-rational belief? (And yes, while I think it is offensive to call faith in God dumb, I do think it's fair to call it non-rational or even irrational. See, for example, Robert McCauley's Why Religion is Natural and Science is Not, which is an excellent defense of religion but not from its logical structure. Or see Soren Kierkegaard's explication of the Isaac sacrifice where he describes religious faith's fundamental underpinning bein irrationality. Kierkegaard, of course, was both profoundly religious and one of the smartest people ever to live, so he's surely not calling religious faith "dumb.").

Presumably a large part of the anti-athiest polling stems from an appallingly large number of people, including some prominent academics, who believe that morality must stem from religion. I've always found this idea jarring. For one thing, Socrates, two millenia ago, made a pretty darned persuasive case that God must declare actions moral because of their intrinsic morality, rather than actions having instrinsic morality because God so declared them. But more importantly, I find it kind of horrifying the implication of the belief that morals exist only in God. If you believe this, does that mean, if, tomorrow, you suffer a Job-like loss of faith, you would then consider yourself free to murder and steal? That one necessary consequence of being an atheist or agnostic is that it requires you to ground your morals in universality rather than faith seems like one of those belief-systems' major benefits, not a flaw.

In any case, I certainly believe you that you don't diss on athiests at your prayer groups. But you're also avoiding reality if you don't think athiests are aggressively shunned in American life.

I'm the PP you responded to. Thank you for opening my eyes and teaching me your perspective. (And yes, I did not at all agree with the stance that the +1000 poster took.) I didn't realize atheists experienced discrimination to that level.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The idea of dying young gives me anxiety. I want to grow old and watch my kid grow up and all that. But it's a sense of sadness

I think it's sad our lives are short compared to the universe. But I've come to acceptance about that. I just want to see my kids grow up, that's all.

This. I want to live a rich, full, and long life. And if that happens, I have no anxiety about going when it is my time.

[Anonymous]

Not anxious about death because I will no longer "be" at that point. My anxiety is about being injured or ill in a way that leaves me conscious but not dead.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:The idea of dying young gives me anxiety. I want to grow old and watch my kid grow up and all that. But it's a sense of sadness

I think it's sad our lives are short compared to the universe. But I've come to acceptance about that. I just want to see my kids grow up, that's all.

This. I want to live a rich, full, and long life. And if that happens, I have no anxiety about going when it is my time.

+1

[Anonymous]

What are you all going to be about your sins when you die?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:So...whenever religious people talk amongst ourselves about stuff like this, I have literally never heard anyone put down atheists or even reference atheists at all.. Not even, "at least I'll feel smug that I wasn't an atheist!" No religious person talks like that, unless they are a cartoon on TV or an actual fanatic. Most people who are believers (and also not fanatic Christian evangelists, which most of us aren't) are happy to just let atheists do their thing and never bring it up.

So when atheists are doing the offhand-condescension move, like, "well I wish I could be dumb enough to believe in god, what a pity I'm not dumb," with the obvious implication that anyone who differs in opinion is dumb, I kinda lose respect for you guys. And I don't see a big difference between you and the evangelists. Just saying.

+1000

I also note the almost militant, detached tone that agnostics here and in other posts take, a deliberate separation from themselves and God, as though they have to really work to keep Him out of their lives. What they don't (yet) understand is the way that God comes to us, lives in us and changes us, through the Holy Spirit. It's not something you constantly have to work at or try to believe, which is what they imply here

To the previous PP, Here's your condescending evidence from the evangelists.

To the pp, you are confused, god doesn't exist, we don't have to keep something out if it doesn't exist in the first place. There is literally no work involved to not believe in god because we are all born not believing in god - it's the default position.

That is not true at all -- in fact, the opposite. We are all born with a "God-shaped" void. We spend our lives trying to fill it; tragically for many, in the wrong way.

Actually, you are both wrong. Some people feel a void that, for them, can effectively be filled by a belief in God. Some people either don't feel that good or do not find it to be filled through belief in God. What is hard about this concept?

There is nothing hard about that concept to understand, it's just that I, personally, do not agree with it. I'm not saying that every person on the earth literally walks around every day saying "I FEEL A VOID. WHAT CAN FILL THAT VOID?" Many (most) people go for years or great stretches of their lives, filling it in different ways and/or ignoring it (thus not being really aware), often being quite happy and even content. But yes, I believe those who are truly self-examined, which includes most people at some point if they are lucky enough to live long enough, will recognize that there is a "void" (for lack of a better word) that cannot be filled by anything except a relationship with the God who created them.

Ok, and that's a condescending belief based on the false notion that other people aren't "truly self-examined." It lacks cognitive flexibility, because you fail to see that someone of similar intelligence and reflectiveness could process the same information and arrive at a different conclusion. It's also non-falsifiable, because you are using as evidence whether someone is "truly self-examined" the relevant outcome, which is whether they've accepted God. The only major difference between your position and the Athiest who says that anyone who accepts God must be "dumb" is that "truly self-examined" is a much better euphemism than "dumb."

I didn't say that at all, and you're putting words in my mouth (words on my post?). One can absolutely reject God, yes. That is a sad truth. One can reject God, over and over. But that doesn't mean that God isn't real and that the person in question is choosing to deny that, like we all choose to deny realities every day that we don't like. (E.g. DH - the kids are being brats. Me -No they aren't, they are just being kids!)

Yes, you literally said this: "those who are truly self-examined, which includes most people at some point if they are lucky enough to live long enough, will recognize that there is a 'void' (for lack of a better word) that cannot be filled by anything except a relationship with the God who created them." That is a profoundly condescending thing to say.

Well, I certainly did not mean it in a condescending way. I do believe that it is true; however, I should have added or perhaps written in this way: Those who are truly self-examined will recognize that there is a void. One can then choose to debate, argue with, question, fight against (fill in your own black) and finally recognize and accept that said void cannot be filled by anything except a relationship with the God who created them OR .... continue to deny that reality.

You sound more patronizing by the second. Who are you to say that everyone has a God-shaped void in their lives, and that people who don't are in denial? Speak for yourself.

Also: this thread is asking atheists and humanists for their opinions, not people who believe in God. We've heard your thoughts already, thanks.

Let's just say that anyone who claims to be an atheist/ agnostic, and yet trolls this forum as much and as often as you do, trying to pick fights with people, definitely has a void, or a chip on the shoulder, or something. Frankly, I think you're proving the point.

[Anonymous]

I really don't want to derail the thread, but...it is so weird to me when people like PP are condescending about other people not believing in God. I arrived at my agnosticism after deep, prolonged examination and reflection, in addition to a thorough knowledge of the history of not just Christianity, but the other major religions as well. To have someone glibly pronounce that I am not "self-examined" and that if I were, the sole conclusion from that would be belief in a Christian God...it is just astounding.

PP, your unwavering belief that God exists does not make it so. Your belief that all people ultimately will choose religion, and Christianity in particular, if "self-examined" is so unbelievably naive and half-baked that I cannot possibly regard you as a rational, intelligent person.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really don't want to derail the thread, but...it is so weird to me when people like PP are condescending about other people not believing in God. I arrived at my agnosticism after deep, prolonged examination and reflection, in addition to a thorough knowledge of the history of not just Christianity, but the other major religions as well. To have someone glibly pronounce that I am not "self-examined" and that if I were, the sole conclusion from that would be belief in a Christian God...it is just astounding.

PP, your unwavering belief that God exists does not make it so. Your belief that all people ultimately will choose religion, and Christianity in particular, if "self-examined" is so unbelievably naive and half-baked that I cannot possibly regard you as a rational, intelligent person.

To your first point, see, e.g.:



By the way, I am not trying to post this chart to start a flame war. I am sure plenty of the religious folks posting on this board are very knowledgeable about religion. I am posting it only to support PP's point that agnostics and atheists tend to arrive at their conclusion after extensive thought and self reflection. The notion that being atheist is a knee-jerk reaction doesn't make much sense. Admitting you are atheist instantly causes half the population to think you are untrustworthy and amoral. It would make my life a lot simpler to lie and claim I'm religious.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really don't want to derail the thread, but...it is so weird to me when people like PP are condescending about other people not believing in God. I arrived at my agnosticism after deep, prolonged examination and reflection, in addition to a thorough knowledge of the history of not just Christianity, but the other major religions as well. To have someone glibly pronounce that I am not "self-examined" and that if I were, the sole conclusion from that would be belief in a Christian God...it is just astounding.

PP, your unwavering belief that God exists does not make it so. Your belief that all people ultimately will choose religion, and Christianity in particular, if "self-examined" is so unbelievably naive and half-baked that I cannot possibly regard you as a rational, intelligent person.

I whole-heartedly agree with this post. (I'm religious, but follow a different religion than Christianity.)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I really don't want to derail the thread, but...it is so weird to me when people like PP are condescending about other people not believing in God. I arrived at my agnosticism after deep, prolonged examination and reflection, in addition to a thorough knowledge of the history of not just Christianity, but the other major religions as well. To have someone glibly pronounce that I am not "self-examined" and that if I were, the sole conclusion from that would be belief in a Christian God...it is just astounding.

PP, your unwavering belief that God exists does not make it so. Your belief that all people ultimately will choose religion, and Christianity in particular, if "self-examined" is so unbelievably naive and half-baked that I cannot possibly regard you as a rational, intelligent person.

+1000

I find it so offensive when Christians say that those of us who don't believe simply aren't trying hard enough. I tried. So hard. For so many years. I'm a former evangelical; I even attended a fundy college (think Liberty University). I'm very well educated in Christian theology and I practiced my faith diligently, even as I battled doubts. But through a long process of education (mainly secular critique of the Bible) and reflection on the upsetting concept of an all knowing, loving, and powerful God who so rarely exerts that power, I became agnostic. And I've never been happier or more at peace.

I think it's great that so many people derive comfort from religion. I derive comfort from NOT being religious. Don't tell me that my personal experience is wrong and that I actually long for God, because I don't. I didn't find peace until I finally accepted that the Christian God does not exist.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:20:52 again. I don't feel anxiety about actually dying, or the pain of death. I feel anxiety about never being conscious again for the rest of eternity.

I agree with this.

But what's more upsetting to me is the possibility of never seeing my children again.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I really don't want to derail the thread, but...it is so weird to me when people like PP are condescending about other people not believing in God. I arrived at my agnosticism after deep, prolonged examination and reflection, in addition to a thorough knowledge of the history of not just Christianity, but the other major religions as well. To have someone glibly pronounce that I am not "self-examined" and that if I were, the sole conclusion from that would be belief in a Christian God...it is just astounding.

PP, your unwavering belief that God exists does not make it so. Your belief that all people ultimately will choose religion, and Christianity in particular, if "self-examined" is so unbelievably naive and half-baked that I cannot possibly regard you as a rational, intelligent person.

+1000

I find it so offensive when Christians say that those of us who don't believe simply aren't trying hard enough. I tried. So hard. For so many years. I'm a former evangelical; I even attended a fundy college (think Liberty University). I'm very well educated in Christian theology and I practiced my faith diligently, even as I battled doubts. But through a long process of education (mainly secular critique of the Bible) and reflection on the upsetting concept of an all knowing, loving, and powerful God who so rarely exerts that power, I became agnostic. And I've never been happier or more at peace.

I think it's great that so many people derive comfort from religion. I derive comfort from NOT being religious. Don't tell me that my personal experience is wrong and that I actually long for God, because I don't. I didn't find peace until I finally accepted that the Christian God does not exist.

One of the PP atheists here. I tried very hard, not to believe, but to simply find the truth. I know that for some this journey leads them to religion. For me it did not, none of it made any sense as a system of belief. All of the dogma were too fluid and artificial to be truly divine. Beyond these fragile claims and appeals to emotion, there is no evidence, so I found no cause to believe. I know for some this result is liberating, to others a huge disappointment. It depends on your mindset.

[Anonymous]

I'm a happy atheist and have been for many years. The deaths of my parents were one of the hardest and most profound experiences of my life. What I worry about is suffering while here on earth. My dad had colorectal cancer and the last year of his life was awful, and that scares me. And I worry about dying before my husband or being in a place where I am abused or neglected in my last years. But as far as death itself, I'm cool with it. My eyes shut, my body shuts down, and the world as I know it ends and you guys continue on without me. I hope it's peaceful and I get lots of good drugs on the way out the door.

I was in a bad car accident a few years back and as horrible as it was, that made me less afraid of an accident, because my body and brain shut down pretty hard during it. I'd prefer not to ever do that again, but the body and brain do protect themselves in crisis.

[Anonymous]

yes I do but about my own death. i worry and get anxious about wife/kids i will leave behind...