So angry... Can any lawyer comment on this job loss debacle?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:I'm the OP. Thanks for the replies. Is it normal for the supervisor to refuse to tell her why she was fired?

If you tell them why, then that opens it up for debate and lawsuits.

How long had she been there? In many states, even a "protected class" can be fired in the first X months for no reason at all.

A person who is a member of a protected class can be fired. The REASON for the firing cannot be the protected class status, no matter when it happens.

True, But everyone is in a protected class, really. We all have a race and a gender.. However, if she’s a minority, the comment “the face doesn’t fit” would be fodder for concern.

If she is a woman, which she is, the comment "the face doesn't fit" is cause for concern.

she was having problems with two older women, so not sure about that. They were kept on, so doesn't seem like any animus toward women.

Actually, I've heard from equal opportunity employment lawyers that it does not matter if the person making the sexist comment is part of the protected class or is nice to other people in the protected class. If the comment they made or the reason they give for the adverse action is deemed based on sex, then it is an issue. For example, if a supervisor says something sexist to me but treats other women in the office just fine, the comments he made to me are still sexual harassment.

So if the reason her boss is firing her can be construed as something tied to her being a woman (i.e., she doesn't have the right "look"), that's an issue.

If I were OP's niece, I would have raised it then and there with the lawyer. Maybe it's just me, but I don't think two month's severance is much. I just don't think it's enough in that situation to silence me from asking questions.

But maybe that's just me. Sure, employers can fire "at will" employees for any reason they like. But there's a reason they want employees to sign nondisclosure forms -- because they know there are risks. And in a situation where there was no clear cause for firing, the performance reviews were excellent, and the boss wouldn't give me anything other than I don't have the right "face," there's no way I'm signing away my rights.

This should be a learning experience for OP's niece. When the boss told her she was being fired, the niece was well within her rights to ask why, her performance reviews were good, there wasn't any incident or adverse event, she should have gone out to her car or to the bathroom and googled an employment lawyer on her smartphone and made a call.

At the very least, she should have some clarification that she's not being fired for cause. That matters.

The other option is that she could have gone to HR. I'm not saying any of this would have saved her job, but it might have given her better standing (perhaps either delayed the action or changed the nature of the termination from being fired to being laid off, which matters because future employers usually ask on online applications if you've ever been fired).

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP again. Thanks for all the replies. I think I will fly her out to stay with me for a while to calm down.

She is really upset about the "face doesn't fit" comment because she suffers from severe acne (just started Accutane recently), and is very self-conscious about it. She seems to think that they fired her literally because of her face. She once overheard the two women who were unkind to her talking about her skin, and now she's convinced that she was fired because she is "too ugly" and "no one wants to look at a face like mine." It is probably good that I am in a different country because I would like to go find her supervisor and slap him. The poor kid. I wish they had just told her a reason, or at least not said anything about a "face" at all.

I find that comment to be deeply, deeply disturbing and potentially discriminatory. Consult an employment lawyer. Not sure what the effect of whatever it is that she signed would be, though. Lawyer up.

As a PP noted above (with multiple links), that phrase means that "not a good personality fit," and has nothing to do with acne Don't fuel the fire here. Her niece got laid off because she wasn't a good personality fit. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. She needs to focus on moving forward and finding something better, not obsess over it.

Who says? The comment could mean she wasn't pretty enough. The comment in and off itself is unclear and could mean any number of things.

Incorrect. Please click on PP's links or just google it yourself. It's a common phrase used by Brits/Australians/probably other commonwealth nations. It means that the person is not a good personality fit.

Did this happen in England/Australia or another Commonwealth nation or in America?

Right, so this guy just happened to use a phrase that in many parts of the world means "not a good personality fit" to fire someone who didn't get along with her colleagues, but what he meant was he was firing her because he didn't like her face.

This isn't "many parts of the world." I've lived here almost 50 years and never heard that expression. Was the boss from England?

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

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Anonymous wrote:OP again. Thanks for all the replies. I think I will fly her out to stay with me for a while to calm down.

She is really upset about the "face doesn't fit" comment because she suffers from severe acne (just started Accutane recently), and is very self-conscious about it. She seems to think that they fired her literally because of her face. She once overheard the two women who were unkind to her talking about her skin, and now she's convinced that she was fired because she is "too ugly" and "no one wants to look at a face like mine." It is probably good that I am in a different country because I would like to go find her supervisor and slap him. The poor kid. I wish they had just told her a reason, or at least not said anything about a "face" at all.

I find that comment to be deeply, deeply disturbing and potentially discriminatory. Consult an employment lawyer. Not sure what the effect of whatever it is that she signed would be, though. Lawyer up.

As a PP noted above (with multiple links), that phrase means that "not a good personality fit," and has nothing to do with acne Don't fuel the fire here. Her niece got laid off because she wasn't a good personality fit. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. She needs to focus on moving forward and finding something better, not obsess over it.

Who says? The comment could mean she wasn't pretty enough. The comment in and off itself is unclear and could mean any number of things.

Incorrect. Please click on PP's links or just google it yourself. It's a common phrase used by Brits/Australians/probably other commonwealth nations. It means that the person is not a good personality fit.

We're not in Britain or Australian. And phrases that may be acceptable there are not necessarily acceptable here, especially when they can be construed as discriminatory in some way.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Thanks for all the replies. I think I will fly her out to stay with me for a while to calm down.

She is really upset about the "face doesn't fit" comment because she suffers from severe acne (just started Accutane recently), and is very self-conscious about it. She seems to think that they fired her literally because of her face. She once overheard the two women who were unkind to her talking about her skin, and now she's convinced that she was fired because she is "too ugly" and "no one wants to look at a face like mine." It is probably good that I am in a different country because I would like to go find her supervisor and slap him. The poor kid. I wish they had just told her a reason, or at least not said anything about a "face" at all.

I find that comment to be deeply, deeply disturbing and potentially discriminatory. Consult an employment lawyer. Not sure what the effect of whatever it is that she signed would be, though. Lawyer up.

As a PP noted above (with multiple links), that phrase means that "not a good personality fit," and has nothing to do with acne Don't fuel the fire here. Her niece got laid off because she wasn't a good personality fit. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. She needs to focus on moving forward and finding something better, not obsess over it.

Who says? The comment could mean she wasn't pretty enough. The comment in and off itself is unclear and could mean any number of things.

Incorrect. Please click on PP's links or just google it yourself. It's a common phrase used by Brits/Australians/probably other commonwealth nations. It means that the person is not a good personality fit.

Did this happen in England/Australia or another Commonwealth nation or in America?

Right, so this guy just happened to use a phrase that in many parts of the world means "not a good personality fit" to fire someone who didn't get along with her colleagues, but what he meant was he was firing her because he didn't like her face.

what does this "many parts of the world" have to do with the way bosses speak in America. I would take the comment at face value (pardon the pun).

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP again. Thanks for all the replies. I think I will fly her out to stay with me for a while to calm down.

She is really upset about the "face doesn't fit" comment because she suffers from severe acne (just started Accutane recently), and is very self-conscious about it. She seems to think that they fired her literally because of her face. She once overheard the two women who were unkind to her talking about her skin, and now she's convinced that she was fired because she is "too ugly" and "no one wants to look at a face like mine." It is probably good that I am in a different country because I would like to go find her supervisor and slap him. The poor kid. I wish they had just told her a reason, or at least not said anything about a "face" at all.

I find that comment to be deeply, deeply disturbing and potentially discriminatory. Consult an employment lawyer. Not sure what the effect of whatever it is that she signed would be, though. Lawyer up.

As a PP noted above (with multiple links), that phrase means that "not a good personality fit," and has nothing to do with acne Don't fuel the fire here. Her niece got laid off because she wasn't a good personality fit. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. She needs to focus on moving forward and finding something better, not obsess over it.

Who says? The comment could mean she wasn't pretty enough. The comment in and off itself is unclear and could mean any number of things.

Incorrect. Please click on PP's links or just google it yourself. It's a common phrase used by Brits/Australians/probably other commonwealth nations. It means that the person is not a good personality fit.

We're not in Britain or Australian. And phrases that may be acceptable there are not necessarily acceptable here, especially when they can be construed as discriminatory in some way.

She was let go with severance. Potatoes, Potahtoes.

[Anonymous]

What proof does she have that he said, "Sometimes a face doesn't fit"?

If it's her word vs. his, I don't see where it will go. I think it's best she cut her losses and move on.

Sorry about your niece. It's part of work. I think most people have a similar story about getting screwed at work. At least we all do, sooner or later.

[Anonymous]

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Anonymous wrote:OP again. Thanks for all the replies. I think I will fly her out to stay with me for a while to calm down.

She is really upset about the "face doesn't fit" comment because she suffers from severe acne (just started Accutane recently), and is very self-conscious about it. She seems to think that they fired her literally because of her face. She once overheard the two women who were unkind to her talking about her skin, and now she's convinced that she was fired because she is "too ugly" and "no one wants to look at a face like mine." It is probably good that I am in a different country because I would like to go find her supervisor and slap him. The poor kid. I wish they had just told her a reason, or at least not said anything about a "face" at all.

I find that comment to be deeply, deeply disturbing and potentially discriminatory. Consult an employment lawyer. Not sure what the effect of whatever it is that she signed would be, though. Lawyer up.

As a PP noted above (with multiple links), that phrase means that "not a good personality fit," and has nothing to do with acne Don't fuel the fire here. Her niece got laid off because she wasn't a good personality fit. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. She needs to focus on moving forward and finding something better, not obsess over it.

Who says? The comment could mean she wasn't pretty enough. The comment in and off itself is unclear and could mean any number of things.

Incorrect. Please click on PP's links or just google it yourself. It's a common phrase used by Brits/Australians/probably other commonwealth nations. It means that the person is not a good personality fit.

We're not in Britain or Australian. And phrases that may be acceptable there are not necessarily acceptable here, especially when they can be construed as discriminatory in some way.

She was let go with severance. Potatoes, Potahtoes.

Yes, but why was she let go? is the question. Something to do with her face apparently. Could be an issue there, or maybe not.

[Anonymous]

I think the "let it go" posters are HR people.
The lawyers are more likely to advise checking into her options.
I think two months severance is not bad. Clearly, she was let go for no performance-related reason. That's why they are giving her severance.

[Anonymous]

OP- it doesn't sound like there is anything to do here except move on. It's unfair.
In future, specific instances of mistreatment should be documented. Your cousin may have had a case for hostile workplace if she had documented, refused to sign the paperwork, and threatened a lawsuit. I'm not sure how it would have worked out- but under those circumstances the company may have considered more severance and a glowing letter of recommendation.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:OP again. Thanks for all the replies. I think I will fly her out to stay with me for a while to calm down.

She is really upset about the "face doesn't fit" comment because she suffers from severe acne (just started Accutane recently), and is very self-conscious about it. She seems to think that they fired her literally because of her face. She once overheard the two women who were unkind to her talking about her skin, and now she's convinced that she was fired because she is "too ugly" and "no one wants to look at a face like mine." It is probably good that I am in a different country because I would like to go find her supervisor and slap him. The poor kid. I wish they had just told her a reason, or at least not said anything about a "face" at all.

I find that comment to be deeply, deeply disturbing and potentially discriminatory. Consult an employment lawyer. Not sure what the effect of whatever it is that she signed would be, though. Lawyer up.

As a PP noted above (with multiple links), that phrase means that "not a good personality fit," and has nothing to do with acne Don't fuel the fire here. Her niece got laid off because she wasn't a good personality fit. It sucks, but it's not the end of the world. She needs to focus on moving forward and finding something better, not obsess over it.[/quote


Who says? The comment could mean she wasn't pretty enough. The comment in and off itself is unclear and could mean any number of things.

Incorrect. Please click on PP's links or just google it yourself. It's a common phrase used by Brits/Australians/probably other commonwealth nations. It means that the person is not a good personality fit.

Did this happen in England/Australia or another Commonwealth nation or in America?

Right, so this guy just happened to use a phrase that in many parts of the world means "not a good personality fit" to fire someone who didn't get along with her colleagues, but what he meant was he was firing her because he didn't like her face.

what does this "many parts of the world" have to do with the way bosses speak in America. I would take the comment at face value (pardon the pun).

OP, if your niece thinks she might have been fired because of her sex or race, she should talk to an employment attorney (bearing in mind that attractiveness is not itself a protected class, so she would have to show that only women were required to be attractive to keep their jobs). Otherwise, she should take it as a learning experience and start looking for a new job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP- it doesn't sound like there is anything to do here except move on. It's unfair.
In future, specific instances of mistreatment should be documented. Your cousin may have had a case for hostile workplace if she had documented, refused to sign the paperwork, and threatened a lawsuit. I'm not sure how it would have worked out- but under those circumstances the company may have considered more severance and a glowing letter of recommendation.

+1 I also disagree with the other PPs that it doesn't matter why she was let go. Before signing any documentation, a person should always be very clear on the nature of the termination. Is she being fired for cause? Is she being laid off?

Based on the agreement she signs, what is the employer allowed to say or not say if a future prospective employer calls them to verify her employment?

While other PPs think it's all fine and dandy, that stuff matters A LOT. Many employers are very touchy about whether or not you've been fired from a previous job. If there was no cause and they want her to sign an agreement, she should have something from them specifying that she is not being fired for cause.

She was at this job 2 years, not 2 months. When she starts applying for new jobs, they will want to call her former employer.

[Anonymous]

http://www.theguardian.com/money/work-blog/2013/sep/26/personality-test-face-fit-at-work

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/money/work-blog/2013/sep/26/personality-test-face-fit-at-work

What's with all the comments about how they do it in England? Pretty sure this didn't happen in England. It's definitely not a common American expression.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:http://www.theguardian.com/money/work-blog/2013/sep/26/personality-test-face-fit-at-work

It doesn't matter if it's a colloquial phrase in England. It can still be construed as discrimination here.

[Anonymous]

I handle a lot of employment law and do not see a case here. It sounds like your niece wasn't a good fit, which is a perfectly acceptable reason to terminate someone.