Middle school grades on high school transcripts

[Anonymous]

I'm the poster at 19:46 and I think you make good points. However, why can't mcps come up with a middle school foreign language (and math!) curriculum that enables kids at the end of eighth grade to test into say spanish 2 or 3 in ninth grade - that way middle school remains middle school and high school remains high school. I really don't get why parents think it is developmentally appropriate for 11 year olds to have what is essentially their first grades ever to count toward high school goa.

[Anonymous]

I wouldn't be surprised if 6th grade Spanish I and 9th grade Spanish I have the same general curriculum, but I would be very surprised if there was no change in pace or depth to reflect that the kids are three years older-- that indicates neither set of students is being taught at an appropriate level.

I think the analogy to AP is a pretty close one-- the difference between a 6th grade student/class and a high school student/class is every bit as big as between high school and college. And most colleges I am familiar with, including UMD, do not include transferred grade in GPA.

I think students should get appropriate "credit" for taking Spanish I in middle school, and for taking higher levels of Spanish in high school, and I have no idea why you would accuse me of trying take away choices from students. I just don't think it does anyone a favor to suggest that 6th grade grades belong on a high school transcript.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I'm the poster at 19:46 and I think you make good points. However, why can't mcps come up with a middle school foreign language (and math!) curriculum that enables kids at the end of eighth grade to test into say spanish 2 or 3 in ninth grade - that way middle school remains middle school and high school remains high school. I really don't get why parents think it is developmentally appropriate for 11 year olds to have what is essentially their first grades ever to count toward high school goa.

I'm 19:59 and you certainly gave me some material to think about. My initial thoughts:

You have a point that it's bizarre to go from no meaningful grades in elementary school to grades that will be recorded on a transcript. It seems to me that elementary school should have meaningful grades regardless of middle school issues. I don't think that devaluing middle school grades is the best answer, but there should be some experience with what grades mean and how they work before having them on a transcript.

I notice you say that students could test into Spanish 2 or 3 in ninth grade. Why is there no option to test into Spanish 4? Would the classes be paced slower? Some middle schools current offer the children the choice between a regular first year of language study or one broken up over two years that moves at a slower speed. While some students prefer the slower option, others prefer the standard pace and would be impatient having to drag out one year of study into two. I find the idea of a school witholding knowledge to be troubling.

Currently, if a student isn't ready for a high school course in 6th grade, there is no requirement to start one. They could take other electives and then take two course starting in 7th and still be ready for level 3 in 9th or they could take a split first year to ease them into it and be ready for level 2 in 9th. For that matter, they could wait until 9th to start, because most colleges want to see 2 years of foreign language taken in high school anyway.

Actually, the most gradual introduction to high school grades would probably be for a child to take no foreign language (FL) in 6th, FL 1A in 7th, FL 1B in 8th and FL 2 in 9th. This way they could get used to grades in 6th, try out a high school course at 1/2 speed with the chance for it not to count in 7th and 8th grades. This seems much gentler than waiting for high school where they have several high school classes to juggle all of which are going full speed and all of which will count with no chances of do-overs.

I guess I support maintaining the current middle school foreign language policy, but altering the elementary grading policy.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if 6th grade Spanish I and 9th grade Spanish I have the same general curriculum, but I would be very surprised if there was no change in pace or depth to reflect that the kids are three years older-- that indicates neither set of students is being taught at an appropriate level.

I think the analogy to AP is a pretty close one-- the difference between a 6th grade student/class and a high school student/class is every bit as big as between high school and college. And most colleges I am familiar with, including UMD, do not include transferred grade in GPA.

I think students should get appropriate "credit" for taking Spanish I in middle school, and for taking higher levels of Spanish in high school, and I have no idea why you would accuse me of trying take away choices from students. I just don't think it does anyone a favor to suggest that 6th grade grades belong on a high school transcript.

Why do I think you're trying to take choices away from students? Your suggestions would leave students with fewer choices. This is not an "accusation", simply arithmetic. You may think that it doesn't do anyone a favor to have sixth grade grades on a high school transcript. Clearly you see this as a poor choice. You do not have to take it. You can choose to have your child take another elective in 6th grade or you can choose to retake the course if you are dissatisfied with the grade (a choice that high school students don't have).

As for the difference between 6th grade and 9th grade first year foreign language classes:

Both classes take the same final
You have heard anecdotal evidence from myself and another poster that the classes are similar. In fact, my personal observations are that tje middle school classes are more rigorous. I'm sure there is some variation. I've heard that the foreign language classes at Richard Montgomery are especially rigorous. I don't think this means that other high schools should be denied credit as long as they cover the "same general curriculum".

Why should the kids being 3 years older mean it is inappropriate to teach them at the same level? Young 6th graders and old 8th graders would have more than 3 years of age between them. Which should be barred from the class? What about young 9th graders to old 12th graders? They probably don't take many classes together, but should it be disallowed?

I'll grant you, not every 6th grader is ready for a high school class and they shouldn't be forced to take one. Nobody forces 6th graders to take foreign language though. Just as I don't think there should be a universal rule to require 6th graders to take a high school course, I don't think there should be a universal rule to bar those who are ready from having the CHOICE.

[Anonymous]

Of course not every sixth grader is ready for a high school class (I'd argue most should not be ready if that class is taught with appropriate rigor in ninth). But every sixth grader should be ready to take a foreign language class - heck every kindergartener should be ready to take a foreign language class. That is one of my beefs with this format, and I do believe in many middle schools in the County it has the effect of delaying the start of foreign language by the students, instead of encouraging it earlier whicb is what mcps should be doing.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
Why do I think you're trying to take choices away from students? Your suggestions would leave students with fewer choices. This is not an "accusation", simply arithmetic. You may think that it doesn't do anyone a favor to have sixth grade grades on a high school transcript. Clearly you see this as a poor choice. You do not have to take it. You can choose to have your child take another elective in 6th grade or you can choose to retake the course if you are dissatisfied with the grade (a choice that high school students don't have).

This argument makes no sense at all. Students have all the same choices about what classes to take or not whether grades appear on HS transcripts or not.

[Anonymous]

I would be concerned if it was regular practice for 9th graders and 12th graders to take classes together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I wouldn't be surprised if 6th grade Spanish I and 9th grade Spanish I have the same general curriculum, but I would be very surprised if there was no change in pace or depth to reflect that the kids are three years older-- that indicates neither set of students is being taught at an appropriate level.

I think the analogy to AP is a pretty close one-- the difference between a 6th grade student/class and a high school student/class is every bit as big as between high school and college. And most colleges I am familiar with, including UMD, do not include transferred grade in GPA.

I think students should get appropriate "credit" for taking Spanish I in middle school, and for taking higher levels of Spanish in high school, and I have no idea why you would accuse me of trying take away choices from students. I just don't think it does anyone a favor to suggest that 6th grade grades belong on a high school transcript.

Why do I think you're trying to take choices away from students? Your suggestions would leave students with fewer choices. This is not an "accusation", simply arithmetic. You may think that it doesn't do anyone a favor to have sixth grade grades on a high school transcript. Clearly you see this as a poor choice. You do not have to take it. You can choose to have your child take another elective in 6th grade or you can choose to retake the course if you are dissatisfied with the grade (a choice that high school students don't have).

As for the difference between 6th grade and 9th grade first year foreign language classes:

Both classes take the same final
You have heard anecdotal evidence from myself and another poster that the classes are similar. In fact, my personal observations are that tje middle school classes are more rigorous. I'm sure there is some variation. I've heard that the foreign language classes at Richard Montgomery are especially rigorous. I don't think this means that other high schools should be denied credit as long as they cover the "same general curriculum".

Why should the kids being 3 years older mean it is inappropriate to teach them at the same level? Young 6th graders and old 8th graders would have more than 3 years of age between them. Which should be barred from the class? What about young 9th graders to old 12th graders? They probably don't take many classes together, but should it be disallowed?

I'll grant you, not every 6th grader is ready for a high school class and they shouldn't be forced to take one. Nobody forces 6th graders to take foreign language though. Just as I don't think there should be a universal rule to require 6th graders to take a high school course, I don't think there should be a universal rule to bar those who are ready from having the CHOICE.

So it seems what you want is to have middle schools offer one middle school Spanish course and one high school Spanish course. If that was really on the table I would have no problem, but does anyone really think it is, or that if it's not the answer should be to only offer HS Spanish?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Of course not every sixth grader is ready for a high school class (I'd argue most should not be ready if that class is taught with appropriate rigor in ninth). But every sixth grader should be ready to take a foreign language class - heck every kindergartener should be ready to take a foreign language class. That is one of my beefs with this format, and I do believe in many middle schools in the County it has the effect of delaying the start of foreign language by the students, instead of encouraging it earlier whicb is what mcps should be doing.

I'm the poster who has been advocating the status quo, but I strongly agree with your argument. I think foreign language is very important and that it should be started at an early age. Promoting foreign language is of far greater concern to me than worrying about the possible effect a middle school class might have on a child's GPA.

Frankly, my child's GPA has always been the least of my worries. I always told them that grades were just an indicator to communicate how they were doing, that the goal was to learn the material (which would be reflected in their grade), rather than focus on the grade.

I have been concerned with the emphasis on GPA that the movement was to teach the foreign language at a slower pace and with less depth. Some schools currently only offer the first year of instruction divided over two years. I want to ensure that children who want foreign language instruction are not restricted in their ability to access it.

I would love to see everyone starting a foreign language in elementary as is common in Europe. I'm not sure how the logistics would work, but would love to hear ideas. I did a google search and found this article on foreign language study across Europe that was fascinating to me.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2015/07/13/learning-a-foreign-language-a-must-in-europe-not-so-in-america/

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So it seems what you want is to have middle schools offer one middle school Spanish course and one high school Spanish course. If that was really on the table I would have no problem, but does anyone really think it is, or that if it's not the answer should be to only offer HS Spanish?

I'm sorry if I'm not communicating clearly, but that is the opposite to what I intended. My stance was that a course should not be restricted to stidents based on their age, but that access shpuld be granted accprding to their readiness and willingness. If a sixth grader is ready for first year foreign language and wants to take it they shouldn't be prohibited simply because it is a course that is also taken by ninth graders. Similarly, if a 12th grader decided they would like to try a new foreign language, I think they should be allowed the chance to take first year foreign language rather than being told they're too old and they missed their chance.

[Anonymous]

My DC took three years of language in MS and received a B one semester and As the other five. I don't think this GPA will change her life chances. I think she enjoyed taking a more challenging class in MS when she had time to focus on it and she seems well prepared for the HS course she's in now. Don't know what level one classes are like in HS but I could believe they might be a circus (as an OP implied) by comparison to the MS students. Level 3 and above are honors courses in HS, so if you're playing the weighted GPA game, that's a consideration.

Clearly language teaching has changed since I was in school because back then French 4 was a couple of seniors sitting in the back of a French 3 class. Now there is French 5, French 6 and AP French language and culture. Don't get caught up in the course name, the pacing is different. Level 1 in MS is the same as level 1 in HS but someone completing French 6 today probably hasn't learned more than I could have learned in French 4, once upon a time.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So it seems what you want is to have middle schools offer one middle school Spanish course and one high school Spanish course. If that was really on the table I would have no problem, but does anyone really think it is, or that if it's not the answer should be to only offer HS Spanish?

I'm sorry if I'm not communicating clearly, but that is the opposite to what I intended. My stance was that a course should not be restricted to stidents based on their age, but that access shpuld be granted accprding to their readiness and willingness. If a sixth grader is ready for first year foreign language and wants to take it they shouldn't be prohibited simply because it is a course that is also taken by ninth graders. Similarly, if a 12th grader decided they would like to try a new foreign language, I think they should be allowed the chance to take first year foreign language rather than being told they're too old and they missed their chance.

It seems to me there are several possibilities--

1) MS level Spanish (grades not on HS transcript)
2) HS level Spanish (grades not on HS transcript)
3) HS level Spanish (grades on HS transcript)

I don't think anyone is talking about "prohibiting" 6th graders from taking any class. The question is, assuming MCPS can only afford to offer one of them, which of these is most appropriate for a middle school to offer. It seems to me MCPS and some posters don't even think there is such a thing as "MS Spanish" which seems odd, but I also think pedagogically kids would be better without the pressure of HS grades in MS (although my own kids did/do fine in Spanish and I do my best not to put any grade pressure on them).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

So it seems what you want is to have middle schools offer one middle school Spanish course and one high school Spanish course. If that was really on the table I would have no problem, but does anyone really think it is, or that if it's not the answer should be to only offer HS Spanish?

I'm sorry if I'm not communicating clearly, but that is the opposite to what I intended. My stance was that a course should not be restricted to stidents based on their age, but that access shpuld be granted accprding to their readiness and willingness. If a sixth grader is ready for first year foreign language and wants to take it they shouldn't be prohibited simply because it is a course that is also taken by ninth graders. Similarly, if a 12th grader decided they would like to try a new foreign language, I think they should be allowed the chance to take first year foreign language rather than being told they're too old and they missed their chance.

It seems to me there are several possibilities--

1) MS level Spanish (grades not on HS transcript)
2) HS level Spanish (grades not on HS transcript)
3) HS level Spanish (grades on HS transcript)

I don't think anyone is talking about "prohibiting" 6th graders from taking any class. The question is, assuming MCPS can only afford to offer one of them, which of these is most appropriate for a middle school to offer. It seems to me MCPS and some posters don't even think there is such a thing as "MS Spanish" which seems odd, but I also think pedagogically kids would be better without the pressure of HS grades in MS (although my own kids did/do fine in Spanish and I do my best not to put any grade pressure on them).

Well option 2 was basically the rule up until 2005 http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A31297-2005Apr6.html. Upon entering HS, middle schoolers had the option of purging any/all of their HS credit grades yet still use them as prerequisite for enrolling in HS. The argument was this was unfair to (likely academically weaker) students who are taking Algebra or Spanish for the first time in HS and have no such option. The problem with (1) MS level languages is how do those plug in to the HS prerequisite, does everyone continue to level 1 even if they took language in MS? If not how is this different from (2) except that no one accumulates HS credit before HS?

[Anonymous]

I hate this rule. My child is in a humanities magnet so math and language are not the only challenging subjects he has. I wish that he could take Algebra, etc, and language without worrying about the transcript.