I don't understand the deal with MoCo class size

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Also, people frequently confuse school size and class size. Class sizes are NOT large because more kids enrolled in your particular school this year. They are large because your school decided not to hire more teachers. Some huge schools still have small classes (ours at one point had 9 kindergartens).

Well I guess we could get more trailers..... there just isn't enough space for more classrooms inside the building.

[Anonymous]

Another issue is that MoCo is really built up in a lot of areas (and real estate is crazy expensive), so they just can't just build more schools. There's been a lot of population growth, with lots of families -- they're building onto the schools they have, but that only helps so much. They added a new wing to our school, but it's still packed.

Also, as another PP commented -- it wasn't all milk and honey with class sizes when we were kids. I had 42 in my 4th grade class, with one super crazy teacher - and that was way out in a small city in fly-over zone. And my grandmother taught in the '60s and had 50 kids in one full-day Kindergarten classroom -- not only did she not have an assistant, she had to share the cafeteria with the other K class, with only blackboards to divide up the 100 kids into the 2 classes. (I would have gone cuckoo for cocoa-puffs after day 1 teaching in that madhouse.) That was in a state that is well-known for the quality of its public education system. There wasn't as much focus on class size until the 1980's, I believe.

That said, I agree that it would be great if we could get smaller classes -- I would double my taxes to cut the class sizes in half!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My mom recently sent me an envelope of old photos including my class pictures from 3rd-5th grade. 31 kids each year. This was a middle class school in a small mid-western city and as I recall we all did fine. Why all the handwringing?

I looked back at the pics of my brother and I in kindergarten -- classes of 15 kids. Public school in Carroll County, MD.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

In our previous town, salary increases were funded by a tax increase on the ballot to fund teacher salaries. The increase didn't extend to all the non-teaching staff. The school board didn't have the power or it would have been political suicide to consistently give raises to all employees by exploding the class sizes.

The class sizes for allocation of teachers went up by 0-5-1 student. Do you consider that an explosion? I don't.

•Elementary Schools: Grades 1 and 2 increase from 27 to 28 at non-focus schools only; Grade 3 increases from 27 to 28 at all schools; and Grades 4 and 5 increase from 29 to 30 at all schools.
•Middle Schools: An increase of 0.5 at schools with higher FARMS rates and 1.0 at other schools.
•High Schools: An increase of 0.5 at schools with higher FARMS rates and 1.0 at other schools.

http://www.montgomeryschoolsmd.org/press/index.aspx?page=showrelease&id=3722

For reference: 27 to 28 is an increase of 4%. 29 to 30 is an increase of 3%.

Not PP, but the limits were already too high. They're changing in the wrong direction. We're considering moving because we can't afford to pay this much for a house and also pay for private, which seems like what we need to do in order to get a reasonably good educational experience.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My mom recently sent me an envelope of old photos including my class pictures from 3rd-5th grade. 31 kids each year. This was a middle class school in a small mid-western city and as I recall we all did fine. Why all the handwringing?

I looked back at the pics of my brother and I in kindergarten -- classes of 15 kids. Public school in Carroll County, MD.

When? The population of Carroll County in 1970 was 70,000. Up to 96,000 in 1980 (up 37%), and 124,000 in 1990 (up 30%), so an increase of 77% over 20 years. I wonder how they did on school construction.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Not PP, but the limits were already too high. They're changing in the wrong direction. We're considering moving because we can't afford to pay this much for a house and also pay for private, which seems like what we need to do in order to get a reasonably good educational experience.

My two kids have received a reasonably good educational experience so far in MCPS. I don't live in the Wootton, Whitman, Churchill, or Walter Johnson clusters, or in the B-CC cluster.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My mom recently sent me an envelope of old photos including my class pictures from 3rd-5th grade. 31 kids each year. This was a middle class school in a small mid-western city and as I recall we all did fine. Why all the handwringing?

I looked back at the pics of my brother and I in kindergarten -- classes of 15 kids. Public school in Carroll County, MD.

When? The population of Carroll County in 1970 was 70,000. Up to 96,000 in 1980 (up 37%), and 124,000 in 1990 (up 30%), so an increase of 77% over 20 years. I wonder how they did on school construction.

For me, 1980-81. But the next few grades were similar, always under 20 kids. Then we moved. No idea how it went in the 90s.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not PP, but the limits were already too high. They're changing in the wrong direction. We're considering moving because we can't afford to pay this much for a house and also pay for private, which seems like what we need to do in order to get a reasonably good educational experience.

My two kids have received a reasonably good educational experience so far in MCPS. I don't live in the Wootton, Whitman, Churchill, or Walter Johnson clusters, or in the B-CC cluster.

Depends on the kid, right? I have no doubt that it can be good for some kids. I have one kid that it's fine for. For my other kid, it isn't -- and she doesn't have some profound special needs. Just a quiet, sensitive, introvert who is an unconventional thinker and also gifted. I know, we hate anyone who says their kid is gifted, but empirically, she is. I know it can be great for some gifted kids, but not ones who need help coming out of their shell and also have some minor LDs.

[Anonymous]

The cap may be 28 for 1st and 2nd graders but our school has 30 1st graders in each class. If more students join later in the year, there will be no change. MCPS doesn't respect the cap.

This isn't the first time that MCPS has raised class sizes to pay for a raise. It happened 3-4 years ago too. Its very dishonest to pretend its just one more student. I understand that MCPS doesn't care about students but don't fool yourself into thinking that parents are fine with 30 6-7 year olds in one class. They are angry and sick of MCPS.

[Anonymous]

We live in a W school district and both my kids in high school have upwards of 38 kids in key academic classes. The teachers told them that all of the classes are very large this year because they are short on staffing and its going to be a very challenging year to manage these large classes. I love paying top dollar property taxes and getting the short end of the stick with my kids education. I wish we could afford private, but its not an option for us unless we don't send our kids to college. For some kids large classes are not an issue, but for others including those with learning issues, its a disaster. The whole situation is completely unacceptable.

[Anonymous]

With so many kids from so many countries and so many ESOL and the FARMS increasing yearly, MCPS needs smaller classrooms. The parochial schools can get away with 25-30 kids because they all are from middle class American families. Most of those kids went to the parochial preschool and know the basics and behaviors of school.

MCPS kindergarten is a complete disaster. 27 kids and 10 of them ESOL. Some kids reading chapter books and others can't even read one word in English. Communication and culture differences. You couldn't pay me enough to teach there and I learned my lesson after sending one there. She learned nothing she hadn't learned in preschool. The curriculum is for the foreigners. Even in 1st grade, they are going over K word wall words. A, Am, Can, Go. I mean let's move on already and teach the kids that need to be taught. Can we not put all the ESOL kids in their own class with smaller ratios until they are fluent?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My mom recently sent me an envelope of old photos including my class pictures from 3rd-5th grade. 31 kids each year. This was a middle class school in a small mid-western city and as I recall we all did fine. Why all the handwringing?

Yes, I remember having 33 kids in my third-grade class. This was in a one-class-per-grade school.

There are a lot of studies showing how small class sizes benefit students. Sure, you survived, but that doesn't mean it was good for the students.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:The cap may be 28 for 1st and 2nd graders but our school has 30 1st graders in each class. If more students join later in the year, there will be no change. MCPS doesn't respect the cap.

This isn't the first time that MCPS has raised class sizes to pay for a raise. It happened 3-4 years ago too. Its very dishonest to pretend its just one more student. I understand that MCPS doesn't care about students but don't fool yourself into thinking that parents are fine with 30 6-7 year olds in one class. They are angry and sick of MCPS.

It's not a cap. It's the limit for teacher allocation, which is done in the spring for the following year. Does MCPS respect these limits? I don't know; you'd have to ask somebody who deals with teacher allocations. But MCPS doesn't have a crystal ball. There is no way for them to know how many students will join after the teachers are allocated. I suppose they could allocate based on best guesses from the past few years. Maybe they actually do do this? I don't know that either.

Also, there are surely many parents who are angry and sick of MCPS, but please don't assume that you speak for everybody. I don't know anybody who thinks that MCPS is perfect (including me), but I know a lot of people who are generally satisfied with their children's schools.

[Anonymous]

My upper middle class white son was not reading when he entered grade 1..despite years of quality early education, no tv and parents that read to him. Great if your child was but there are kids with no language issues that are still earning to read at 6.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My mom recently sent me an envelope of old photos including my class pictures from 3rd-5th grade. 31 kids each year. This was a middle class school in a small mid-western city and as I recall we all did fine. Why all the handwringing?

Yes, I remember having 33 kids in my third-grade class. This was in a one-class-per-grade school.

There are a lot of studies showing how small class sizes benefit students. Sure, you survived, but that doesn't mean it was good for the students.

Those studies show that the class sizes have to be a whole lot smaller (like under 20). Going from 25 to 24 has no identifiable benefits.

And, as various PPs have said, it's better to have a good teacher in a large class than a bad teacher in a small class.