Does achievement gap occur at school or at home?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Listen to Dr. Ben Carson. His mother could not even read, he says. But, she understood its importance and insisted that her kids do well in school. That is what makes the difference.

Read Carson's book, Gifted Hands. His mother was a truly amazing woman.

I like Ben Carson. I with there were more blacks like him.

Good news! There are more black people like Ben Carson! Ben Carson is not the only black physician. He is not even the only black neurosurgeon!

I have not seen any. Care to name a few?

NP here. Are you kidding me??? You don't know any African American physicians? I know many both socially and professionally.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Listen to Dr. Ben Carson. His mother could not even read, he says. But, she understood its importance and insisted that her kids do well in school. That is what makes the difference.

Read Carson's book, Gifted Hands. His mother was a truly amazing woman.

I like Ben Carson. I with there were more blacks like him.

Good news! There are more black people like Ben Carson! Ben Carson is not the only black physician. He is not even the only black neurosurgeon!

I have not seen any. Care to name a few?

NP here. Are you kidding me??? You don't know any African American physicians? I know many both socially and professionally.

not Ben C the doc but Ben C as a person. it seems to me he really has it together.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Not around here. Poorer schools get 3 times the funding.

My kids are at one of those poorer schools. Yes we benefit from low class sizes, but there isn't a crazy amount of extras besides that. And I find that my kids who are above the grade level in most subjects don't have very many peers to form appropriate groups. And the expectations are lower in general, which isn't a good thing for high achievers. I am grateful that we can afford books and had the time and wherewithal to read to our children from a very young age. I do think that it comes from Home first and foremost and school is a much smaller percentage.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Not having opportunities is NOT the case in DC. Absolutely NOT. DC has FREE world-class museums and art galleries and tons of FREE cultural events and educational resources that most other kids anywhere else in the country would never see the likes of, and which kids anywhere else would be lucky to have access to in terms of enrichment. But talk to the typical low-SES DCPS student and he/she has likely never even set foot in any of the museums. And why? Because at home, the kid's parents, relatives, neighbors, et cetera have no fucking clue or care, and even if a well-intentioned teacher tries to enlighten them about all the opportunities that are out there, the trust and interest isn't there, they just view it as stupid shit that only eggheads and white people care about. I say this from experience. Deep cultural problems exist. It's pretty sad.

Certainly there is a failure to communicate, here. Or, at minimum, a failure to listen. Approaches based on "Your culture is bad, you should change it to be more like mine" rarely get people to change their behaviors.

These are inter-generational issues. If the parent or grandparent had a negative experience in school and associates it with shame and failure it will usually be passed down. Many people don't feel like they belong in museums, they are "high brow."
There are different cultural factors in other areas. I taught in a title 1 school with many parents who had 2-3 jobs and very little literacy in English or their native language. Some were migrant workers. For many of them school work stayed at school. They didn't do homework. They trusted that teachers would get their job done.

[Anonymous]

I will chime in on this because my experience is illustrative. I had 8 siblings and was raised by incredibly hard working, but working poor parents. My mother cleaned hotel rooms and was a CNA. My dad drove a taxi and was a security guard. They worked double shifts nearly every day. I can count on my hand the amount of times I would have seen them at school as a child, including things like the cute school performances I rush out of work to try to catch with my kids now. My parents made an effort to take us to museums that were free here, but they were exhausted and stressed and scared. We spent a ton of time alone.

I was a book work and read constantly. We received a free set of encyclopedias and as a young kid, I would spend hours during the summer reading random tidbits. It was fun for me. I was ran around outside with the siblings, went to our local pool (if we could scrounge up change to get in) and watched an intense amount of television.

I graduated at the top of my class in high school. Went to a great college, got a medical degree, and am the "American dream." People say that to my face. Three of my siblings had similar outcomes. The other four didn't. Depression, anxiety, and eventually substance abuse and crime took them from this world.

People aren't specimens. It's very difficult to tell what works, but for a sensitive kid, with potentially unserved special needs, being in a high poverty, stressful situation is a one way ticket to screwed.

I see it now, even. Living on the other side, there's just a greater margin of error in terms of life you have as an upper middle class family. It's a privilege.

[Anonymous]

Thanks for your wise post, PP. I'm sorry about your other four siblings.

[Anonymous]

If people were hunters and gatherers or farmers wouldn't they teach their children everything they know about hunting, gathering, and farming? So it's puzzling to me why so many city dwellers fail to teach their children the skills of commerce.

Too many parents fail to teach their children at home. Too many parents fail to discuss important topics like ISIS, 2016 elections, science, medicine, etc. with their children. We may not be able to teach our children advanced academics, but we can at least teach them what's important and what they must do to succeed. If you are only talking to your children about sports, fashion, celebrities, and gossip they will not be able to compete in the long-term with those who have been educated at home as well as at school.

[Anonymous]

I come from a black family that has been upper middle class for generations.....yet, I also completed my medical training in Baltimore. The PP's that talk about this being cultural within black society are absolutely correct. It is going to take a CULTURAL change within lower SES black families to help close this gap. High school achievement is looked down upon by peers...it isn't "cool" to be too smart...and could even be dangerous for them in the neighborhood. Why is this? Because it isn't looked at as a good thing to want to get out of the "hood" and make money- then you're a sellout. There has to be some systemic culture change for this gap to begin to close, and even then, it will take a generation or two. I see this gap all the time...where patients even said some things to me about how I think I'm better than them and don't give them advice because I'm "rich" and don't know what it's like to be in their shoes...when literally all I want to do is help them. I don't know the answers, I'm not trained in the social sciences enough to know how to start the change. But THIS, as other PP's have pointed out is really, truly the root of the problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I come from a black family that has been upper middle class for generations.....yet, I also completed my medical training in Baltimore. The PP's that talk about this being cultural within black society are absolutely correct. It is going to take a CULTURAL change within lower SES black families to help close this gap. High school achievement is looked down upon by peers...it isn't "cool" to be too smart...and could even be dangerous for them in the neighborhood. Why is this? Because it isn't looked at as a good thing to want to get out of the "hood" and make money- then you're a sellout. There has to be some systemic culture change for this gap to begin to close, and even then, it will take a generation or two. I see this gap all the time...where patients even said some things to me about how I think I'm better than them and don't give them advice because I'm "rich" and don't know what it's like to be in their shoes...when literally all I want to do is help them. I don't know the answers, I'm not trained in the social sciences enough to know how to start the change. But THIS, as other PP's have pointed out is really, truly the root of the problem.

The root of black urban poverty in Baltimore is poor black people who just don't want to do better? Never mind redlining, the absence of jobs, the absence of ways to get to jobs, lead poisoning, the war on drugs, incarceration, guns, policing policies, poverty, bad schools, and all of the other greater forces in society that affect every individual who lives in that society -- it's all up to each individual and their individual choices? And for some reason, poor black people just tend to make really bad choices?

PP, the people who are telling you that you don't know what it's like to be in their shoes are right. You don't know what it's like to be in their shoes. (I don't either.) If all you want to do is help them, you should start by learning more about what it's like to be in their shoes.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I come from a black family that has been upper middle class for generations.....yet, I also completed my medical training in Baltimore. The PP's that talk about this being cultural within black society are absolutely correct. It is going to take a CULTURAL change within lower SES black families to help close this gap. High school achievement is looked down upon by peers...it isn't "cool" to be too smart...and could even be dangerous for them in the neighborhood. Why is this? Because it isn't looked at as a good thing to want to get out of the "hood" and make money- then you're a sellout. There has to be some systemic culture change for this gap to begin to close, and even then, it will take a generation or two. I see this gap all the time...where patients even said some things to me about how I think I'm better than them and don't give them advice because I'm "rich" and don't know what it's like to be in their shoes...when literally all I want to do is help them. I don't know the answers, I'm not trained in the social sciences enough to know how to start the change. But THIS, as other PP's have pointed out is really, truly the root of the problem.

The root of black urban poverty in Baltimore is poor black people who just don't want to do better? Never mind redlining, the absence of jobs, the absence of ways to get to jobs, lead poisoning, the war on drugs, incarceration, guns, policing policies, poverty, bad schools, and all of the other greater forces in society that affect every individual who lives in that society -- it's all up to each individual and their individual choices? And for some reason, poor black people just tend to make really bad choices?

PP, the people who are telling you that you don't know what it's like to be in their shoes are right. You don't know what it's like to be in their shoes. (I don't either.) If all you want to do is help them, you should start by learning more about what it's like to be in their shoes.

PP here- I am not pretending to know what it is like to be in their shoes, and I very directly stated that I don't know what a lot of the causes are, but that whatever the causes may be, their effects have infiltrated the culture. I also very clearly stated that I don't know how to begin to solve the problem. I truly don't. I want to help, and if told how to start to make these differences, as that is not my area of expertise, I would be HAPPY to get boots on the ground to do so outside of helping them medically.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I come from a black family that has been upper middle class for generations.....yet, I also completed my medical training in Baltimore. The PP's that talk about this being cultural within black society are absolutely correct. It is going to take a CULTURAL change within lower SES black families to help close this gap. High school achievement is looked down upon by peers...it isn't "cool" to be too smart...and could even be dangerous for them in the neighborhood. Why is this? Because it isn't looked at as a good thing to want to get out of the "hood" and make money- then you're a sellout. There has to be some systemic culture change for this gap to begin to close, and even then, it will take a generation or two. I see this gap all the time...where patients even said some things to me about how I think I'm better than them and don't give them advice because I'm "rich" and don't know what it's like to be in their shoes...when literally all I want to do is help them. I don't know the answers, I'm not trained in the social sciences enough to know how to start the change. But THIS, as other PP's have pointed out is really, truly the root of the problem.

The root of black urban poverty in Baltimore is poor black people who just don't want to do better? Never mind redlining, the absence of jobs, the absence of ways to get to jobs, lead poisoning, the war on drugs, incarceration, guns, policing policies, poverty, bad schools, and all of the other greater forces in society that affect every individual who lives in that society -- it's all up to each individual and their individual choices? And for some reason, poor black people just tend to make really bad choices?

PP, the people who are telling you that you don't know what it's like to be in their shoes are right. You don't know what it's like to be in their shoes. (I don't either.) If all you want to do is help them, you should start by learning more about what it's like to be in their shoes.

See part of the issue here is that no one wants to acknowledge these facts as truths. They see it as an excuse and something many blacks are too weak to overcome. Then they use the poverty example for other minorities and say "look, that poor Indian of Chinese person came to this country and kicked ass. What happened to you?" If your baseline opinions on the matter start from not acknowledging the historical inequities purposely targeted to impact one race of people (blacks) and just how power that really is, then its pretty pointless to engage.

[Anonymous]

Social scientist here. The thing is, parents in low SES communities are giving their kids the tools to succeed in THEIR communities. They have different definitions of success and what it means to live a good life, even if these definitions perpetuate poverty and underachievement and ill health, etc. I recommend the book "Random Family" if anyone wants to get a deeper understanding of the structural and individual factors that keep people mired in self-defeating behavior patterns in low-income urban communities.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Listen to Dr. Ben Carson. His mother could not even read, he says. But, she understood its importance and insisted that her kids do well in school. That is what makes the difference.

Read Carson's book, Gifted Hands. His mother was a truly amazing woman.

I like Ben Carson. I with there were more blacks like him.

Good news! There are more black people like Ben Carson! Ben Carson is not the only black physician. He is not even the only black neurosurgeon!

I have not seen any. Care to name a few?

NP here. Are you kidding me??? You don't know any African American physicians? I know many both socially and professionally.

not Ben C the doc but Ben C as a person. it seems to me he really has it together.

Are you the poster who loved to sing the praises of Bill Cosby too? You don't know these either of these men personally FYI

[Anonymous]

Social scientist here. The thing is, parents in low SES communities are giving their kids the tools to succeed in THEIR communities. They have different definitions of success and what it means to live a good life, even if these definitions perpetuate poverty and underachievement and ill health, etc. I recommend the book "Random Family" if anyone wants to get a deeper understanding of the structural and individual factors that keep people mired in self-defeating behavior patterns in low-income urban communities.

Well, that does not appear to be working. Otherwise, there would not be so many killings.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Social scientist here. The thing is, parents in low SES communities are giving their kids the tools to succeed in THEIR communities. They have different definitions of success and what it means to live a good life, even if these definitions perpetuate poverty and underachievement and ill health, etc. I recommend the book "Random Family" if anyone wants to get a deeper understanding of the structural and individual factors that keep people mired in self-defeating behavior patterns in low-income urban communities.

Well, that does not appear to be working. Otherwise, there would not be so many killings.

No, that's a counterfactual. The question is, if the parents in the poor black urban communities were not giving their kids the tools to succeed in THEIR communities, then what would happen? You don't know the answer to that question. You can't know the answer to that question.