This American Life about desegregation in schools

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
You are 100% wrong about the value that poor people place on education because the vast majority realize it's the most reliable path to a better life. You're also wrong that they're not entitled to it - it's in the Constitution. But if parents are making efforts to instill that lesson at home, then the lesson that sinks in at a failing school is this: you are not going to find that path here. Yeah, there are some extraordinary kids who are able to overcome the psychological barrier that a failing school puts up every day - where just walking in feels like punishment - but by the definition of the word, everyone can't be extraordinary. Kids as young as first grade know when they're in a shitty school (I know, my students told me). The ones who can get out do so; the ones who can't are riding on a vicious cycle of low expectation that starts early and transcends generations.

The lesson in the TAL episode is that if kids can see the path, they're MUCH more likely to get on it. And yeah, that's simplistic but empirically true.

Can you please explain then the situation I quoted earlier? I live in a city in the South where every student in a failing school has a right to go to any other public school or some private ones for free. We also have magnet schools.

Also, in my city the real estate is very cheap, we don't have the situation like in DC where you can't afford to live in a good school district. You can. You can rent an apartment in the best school area for $600, the houses are very affordable. Right now I can buy a house in the best school district for $135,000. Median income is around $50K.

Yet, we still ended up have with the same result. Failing schools are black. Thriving schools are white.

How do you explain this? Please do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
Failing students? Did you listen to the show? The kids who have parents willing to travel 30 miles away do not have "failing students". It's the schools that are failing those kids. For the most part, parents who are going to extremes to get their kids into better schools are doing so because they value education and want more for their children. They are not unlike you...they just don't have the money to live next door to you. Separate will always be unequal.

Failing schools don't become failing by themselves. It is students that make a school fail.

No one opens a new school and labels it failing.

The same with affluent white schools. No one openeded on and said "this will be a good school". There is no magic.

The parents work with their kids at home. They tutor them, read to them, engage them in activities, volunteer at school, work in PTA, advocate for goid teachers and practices, fundraise for the school. It's a lot of work. It's not just this entitlement tfat the school owes them, it's also what you bring to the school.

This. 1 million x this. Please start taking ownership of your own failures as a community, white people are simply more involved in their child's education and results are for everyone to see. I understand that parents with struggling finances may not be involved much but that's true for struggling whites, AA, Asians, Mexicans etc. Financial issues treat every race more or less the same. No, this is not a race issue this is entitlement and failure to take responsibility as a community. Improve the culture of education within your community, then talk about schools. Education is too important to be left to the schools.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are 100% wrong about the value that poor people place on education because the vast majority realize it's the most reliable path to a better life. You're also wrong that they're not entitled to it - it's in the Constitution. But if parents are making efforts to instill that lesson at home, then the lesson that sinks in at a failing school is this: you are not going to find that path here. Yeah, there are some extraordinary kids who are able to overcome the psychological barrier that a failing school puts up every day - where just walking in feels like punishment - but by the definition of the word, everyone can't be extraordinary. Kids as young as first grade know when they're in a shitty school (I know, my students told me). The ones who can get out do so; the ones who can't are riding on a vicious cycle of low expectation that starts early and transcends generations.

The lesson in the TAL episode is that if kids can see the path, they're MUCH more likely to get on it. And yeah, that's simplistic but empirically true.

Can you please explain then the situation I quoted earlier? I live in a city in the South where every student in a failing school has a right to go to any other public school or some private ones for free. We also have magnet schools.

Also, in my city the real estate is very cheap, we don't have the situation like in DC where you can't afford to live in a good school district. You can. You can rent an apartment in the best school area for $600, the houses are very affordable. Right now I can buy a house in the best school district for $135,000. Median income is around $50K.

Yet, we still ended up have with the same result. Failing schools are black. Thriving schools are white.

How do you explain this? Please do.

Why should she have to explain this to you? What do you think Brown v. Board of Education was about? Very little has changed in terms of school equality since that time. I'm sure you know by now that no one cares about poor black people...No one. Separate will always be unequal. All black schools will always struggle.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:In my state if you end up in a failing school you have a right to transfer to any other public school or some private schools (the state I think limits how much they'll pay). I know there are kids in my DC's private school who take advantage of that program. It works. You can use it.

In addition to that, our real estate is cheap, cheap. You can rent an apartment in the best school zone for $600/month.

So can you explain the the problem still remains the same?
In the city there are still failing black schools.

If integration was successful why when they stopped making efforts to bus kids everything naturally went back to what it was, failing black schools, thriving white schools?

Please share where one can rent a one bedroom apartment in the JKLMMO school zone? I won't even ask about a two-bedroom because I'll wait a long time for the one-bedroom anecdote.

[Anonymous]

You are 100% wrong about the value that poor people place on education because the vast majority realize it's the most reliable path to a better life. You're also wrong that they're not entitled to it - it's in the Constitution.

Teacher: Please tell me you aren't teaching history or social studies or civics to anyone over the age of about 5?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are 100% wrong about the value that poor people place on education because the vast majority realize it's the most reliable path to a better life. You're also wrong that they're not entitled to it - it's in the Constitution. But if parents are making efforts to instill that lesson at home, then the lesson that sinks in at a failing school is this: you are not going to find that path here. Yeah, there are some extraordinary kids who are able to overcome the psychological barrier that a failing school puts up every day - where just walking in feels like punishment - but by the definition of the word, everyone can't be extraordinary. Kids as young as first grade know when they're in a shitty school (I know, my students told me). The ones who can get out do so; the ones who can't are riding on a vicious cycle of low expectation that starts early and transcends generations.

The lesson in the TAL episode is that if kids can see the path, they're MUCH more likely to get on it. And yeah, that's simplistic but empirically true.

Can you please explain then the situation I quoted earlier? I live in a city in the South where every student in a failing school has a right to go to any other public school or some private ones for free. We also have magnet schools.

Also, in my city the real estate is very cheap, we don't have the situation like in DC where you can't afford to live in a good school district. You can. You can rent an apartment in the best school area for $600, the houses are very affordable. Right now I can buy a house in the best school district for $135,000. Median income is around $50K.

Yet, we still ended up have with the same result. Failing schools are black. Thriving schools are white.

How do you explain this? Please do.

Why should she have to explain this to you? What do you think Brown v. Board of Education was about? Very little has changed in terms of school equality since that time. I'm sure you know by now that no one cares about poor black people...No one. Separate will always be unequal. All black schools will always struggle.

What about schools like Achievement Prep and Kipp - which are high scoring tier 1 schools - majority AA schools. They don't struggle, they are high performing schools. You should check your "facts" before you assume that because they are all black, they are going to be poor performing programs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are 100% wrong about the value that poor people place on education because the vast majority realize it's the most reliable path to a better life. You're also wrong that they're not entitled to it - it's in the Constitution. But if parents are making efforts to instill that lesson at home, then the lesson that sinks in at a failing school is this: you are not going to find that path here. Yeah, there are some extraordinary kids who are able to overcome the psychological barrier that a failing school puts up every day - where just walking in feels like punishment - but by the definition of the word, everyone can't be extraordinary. Kids as young as first grade know when they're in a shitty school (I know, my students told me). The ones who can get out do so; the ones who can't are riding on a vicious cycle of low expectation that starts early and transcends generations.

The lesson in the TAL episode is that if kids can see the path, they're MUCH more likely to get on it. And yeah, that's simplistic but empirically true.

Can you please explain then the situation I quoted earlier? I live in a city in the South where every student in a failing school has a right to go to any other public school or some private ones for free. We also have magnet schools.

Also, in my city the real estate is very cheap, we don't have the situation like in DC where you can't afford to live in a good school district. You can. You can rent an apartment in the best school area for $600, the houses are very affordable. Right now I can buy a house in the best school district for $135,000. Median income is around $50K.

Yet, we still ended up have with the same result. Failing schools are black. Thriving schools are white.

How do you explain this? Please do.

There are very few schools in this city that are majority white. Very few.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my state if you end up in a failing school you have a right to transfer to any other public school or some private schools (the state I think limits how much they'll pay). I know there are kids in my DC's private school who take advantage of that program. It works. You can use it.

In addition to that, our real estate is cheap, cheap. You can rent an apartment in the best school zone for $600/month.

So can you explain the the problem still remains the same?
In the city there are still failing black schools.

If integration was successful why when they stopped making efforts to bus kids everything naturally went back to what it was, failing black schools, thriving white schools?

Please share where one can rent a one bedroom apartment in the JKLMMO school zone? I won't even ask about a two-bedroom because I'll wait a long time for the one-bedroom anecdote.

I said in a different state, idiot. We have all the opportunities you don't - it's free, it's available, go to any school you like. Yet the majority of black students don't use those opportunities and they fail. And so re-integration will start soon and white families are running away to the suburbs.

Maybe it's time to take responsibility for your own failures.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my state if you end up in a failing school you have a right to transfer to any other public school or some private schools (the state I think limits how much they'll pay). I know there are kids in my DC's private school who take advantage of that program. It works. You can use it.

In addition to that, our real estate is cheap, cheap. You can rent an apartment in the best school zone for $600/month.

So can you explain the the problem still remains the same?
In the city there are still failing black schools.

If integration was successful why when they stopped making efforts to bus kids everything naturally went back to what it was, failing black schools, thriving white schools?

Please share where one can rent a one bedroom apartment in the JKLMMO school zone? I won't even ask about a two-bedroom because I'll wait a long time for the one-bedroom anecdote.

I said in a different state, idiot. We have all the opportunities you don't - it's free, it's available, go to any school you like. Yet the majority of black students don't use those opportunities and they fail. And so re-integration will start soon and white families are running away to the suburbs.

Maybe it's time to take responsibility for your own failures.

You sound angry PP. However, I would like to ask you how well publicized is this information? Are there limitations to how many children can transfer OOB to a well regarded school before the brakes are applied? In regards to the public school vouchers, is it first come first serve as in the DC TAG Program and once the funds are exhausted, too bad?

A median 50k income is quite manageable for a family to acquire a $600 two bedroom apartment. Actually, it is admirable. However median is what it is, median. That means that there are household incomes well below 50k and well above 50k. I bet you are above 50k and thus cannot relate to a HHI of 30 for a family of four.

Finally, do you have a problem sharing this city you speak so highly about. It might help somebody who is reading this thread and looking for a reasonably priced place to relocate.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my state if you end up in a failing school you have a right to transfer to any other public school or some private schools (the state I think limits how much they'll pay). I know there are kids in my DC's private school who take advantage of that program. It works. You can use it.

In addition to that, our real estate is cheap, cheap. You can rent an apartment in the best school zone for $600/month.

So can you explain the the problem still remains the same?
In the city there are still failing black schools.

If integration was successful why when they stopped making efforts to bus kids everything naturally went back to what it was, failing black schools, thriving white schools?

Please share where one can rent a one bedroom apartment in the JKLMMO school zone? I won't even ask about a two-bedroom because I'll wait a long time for the one-bedroom anecdote.

I said in a different state, idiot. We have all the opportunities you don't - it's free, it's available, go to any school you like. Yet the majority of black students don't use those opportunities and they fail. And so re-integration will start soon and white families are running away to the suburbs.

Maybe it's time to take responsibility for your own failures.

You sound angry PP. However, I would like to ask you how well publicized is this information? Are there limitations to how many children can transfer OOB to a well regarded school before the brakes are applied? In regards to the public school vouchers, is it first come first serve as in the DC TAG Program and once the funds are exhausted, too bad?

A median 50k income is quite manageable for a family to acquire a $600 two bedroom apartment. Actually, it is admirable. However median is what it is, median. That means that there are household incomes well below 50k and well above 50k. I bet you are above 50k and thus cannot relate to a HHI of 30 for a family of four.

Finally, do you have a problem sharing this city you speak so highly about. It might help somebody who is reading this thread and looking for a reasonably priced place to relocate.

yea, it's the south. I'm from there. No willingness to recognize the effects of generations of poverty and racism. Much willingness to abdicate responsibility by placing it on the "bad" blacks who need to accept responsibility for their own situation. In part this desire to abdicate is because the situation requires more resources than are available and in part it is because the the white middle class in the south is always precarious (so a sense of clinging by their fingernails to what they've got).

I grew up on Louisiana in the 80s, and the racism was blatant, not subtle the way it is now. I did go to a segregated middle and high school (thanks to the federal government mandates that creates very odd shaped boundaries for my school). There was lots of self segregation and institutional segregation in the school (advanced classes were white though regular classes were very mixed), so I'd be interested to see what graduation rates and success rates were for blacks. My sense was that it was more than just a school within a school and that the AA's did much better there than they did at the less integrated AA hs across town. But I don't have the stats. But it was a racist racist town at least in 1990 when I left.

[Anonymous]

It's Huntsville, AL, but what's the point of relocating? The city started re-integration program because the black students fail, despite everything being offered.

People expect what once were the best schools (majority white) will be ruined by the influx of below average students. The white families are buying houses outside of the city, in the white thriving suburbs that don't have this problem.

Just for the sake of this discussion I went through half of the list of the failing schools in Alabama. And they're all 80-100% black schools.

I didn't bother with the entire list, because it's obvious.

It's not a conspiracy against the black people. It's not that someone secretly decided that these 74 schools will get the worst teachers and no supplies.

It's what you made of it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:In my state if you end up in a failing school you have a right to transfer to any other public school or some private schools (the state I think limits how much they'll pay). I know there are kids in my DC's private school who take advantage of that program. It works. You can use it.

In addition to that, our real estate is cheap, cheap. You can rent an apartment in the best school zone for $600/month.

So can you explain the the problem still remains the same?
In the city there are still failing black schools.

If integration was successful why when they stopped making efforts to bus kids everything naturally went back to what it was, failing black schools, thriving white schools?

Please share where one can rent a one bedroom apartment in the JKLMMO school zone? I won't even ask about a two-bedroom because I'll wait a long time for the one-bedroom anecdote.

I said in a different state, idiot. We have all the opportunities you don't - it's free, it's available, go to any school you like. Yet the majority of black students don't use those opportunities and they fail. And so re-integration will start soon and white families are running away to the suburbs.

Maybe it's time to take responsibility for your own failures.

You sound angry PP. However, I would like to ask you how well publicized is this information? Are there limitations to how many children can transfer OOB to a well regarded school before the brakes are applied? In regards to the public school vouchers, is it first come first serve as in the DC TAG Program and once the funds are exhausted, too bad?

A median 50k income is quite manageable for a family to acquire a $600 two bedroom apartment. Actually, it is admirable. However median is what it is, median. That means that there are household incomes well below 50k and well above 50k. I bet you are above 50k and thus cannot relate to a HHI of 30 for a family of four.

Finally, do you have a problem sharing this city you speak so highly about. It might help somebody who is reading this thread and looking for a reasonably priced place to relocate.

yea, it's the south. I'm from there. No willingness to recognize the effects of generations of poverty and racism. Much willingness to abdicate responsibility by placing it on the "bad" blacks who need to accept responsibility for their own situation. In part this desire to abdicate is because the situation requires more resources than are available and in part it is because the the white middle class in the south is always precarious (so a sense of clinging by their fingernails to what they've got).

I grew up on Louisiana in the 80s, and the racism was blatant, not subtle the way it is now. I did go to a segregated middle and high school (thanks to the federal government mandates that creates very odd shaped boundaries for my school). There was lots of self segregation and institutional segregation in the school (advanced classes were white though regular classes were very mixed), so I'd be interested to see what graduation rates and success rates were for blacks. My sense was that it was more than just a school within a school and that the AA's did much better there than they did at the less integrated AA hs across town. But I don't have the stats. But it was a racist racist town at least in 1990 when I left.

Sorry - that was supposed to be integrated middle and hs.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:It's Huntsville, AL, but what's the point of relocating? The city started re-integration program because the black students fail, despite everything being offered.

People expect what once were the best schools (majority white) will be ruined by the influx of below average students. The white families are buying houses outside of the city, in the white thriving suburbs that don't have this problem.

Just for the sake of this discussion I went through half of the list of the failing schools in Alabama. And they're all 80-100% black schools.

I didn't bother with the entire list, because it's obvious.

It's not a conspiracy against the black people. It's not that someone secretly decided that these 74 schools will get the worst teachers and no supplies.

It's what you made of it.

I think it's funny that this thread is basically Booker T. Washington vs. W.E.B. DuBois, just 100 years later.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are 100% wrong about the value that poor people place on education because the vast majority realize it's the most reliable path to a better life. You're also wrong that they're not entitled to it - it's in the Constitution. But if parents are making efforts to instill that lesson at home, then the lesson that sinks in at a failing school is this: you are not going to find that path here. Yeah, there are some extraordinary kids who are able to overcome the psychological barrier that a failing school puts up every day - where just walking in feels like punishment - but by the definition of the word, everyone can't be extraordinary. Kids as young as first grade know when they're in a shitty school (I know, my students told me). The ones who can get out do so; the ones who can't are riding on a vicious cycle of low expectation that starts early and transcends generations.

The lesson in the TAL episode is that if kids can see the path, they're MUCH more likely to get on it. And yeah, that's simplistic but empirically true.

Can you please explain then the situation I quoted earlier? I live in a city in the South where every student in a failing school has a right to go to any other public school or some private ones for free. We also have magnet schools.

Also, in my city the real estate is very cheap, we don't have the situation like in DC where you can't afford to live in a good school district. You can. You can rent an apartment in the best school area for $600, the houses are very affordable. Right now I can buy a house in the best school district for $135,000. Median income is around $50K.

Yet, we still ended up have with the same result. Failing schools are black. Thriving schools are white.

How do you explain this? Please do.

You keep harping on this $600 a month rent in a great school boundary, so let's do some math together.

Our hypothetical family is a single mom and her two children, ages 2 and 6. Mom works 50 hours per week making the federal minimum wage of $7.25/hour (you said you're in the south so I'm going to assume that your state doesn't have a higher minimum wage). She makes $362/week, pre-tax (for the purposes of our exercise we won't worry about taxes). She works 52 weeks a year since she doesn't have any time off, so she makes an untaxed $18,850 per year. Her $600 rent is $7200 per year. Daycare for her youngest is $100/week since you are in a low COL area, or $5200/year. She's spending $12,400/year on rent and daycare. That leaves $6,450 left. That breaks down to $537/month to cover food, all bills, transportation, insurance (her minimum wage job obviously isn't providing insurance), before and aftercare, and everything else that she might need for her family to survive.

So no, that $600 a month rent in the best school boundary no longer seems so affordable. It's all relative.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
You are 100% wrong about the value that poor people place on education because the vast majority realize it's the most reliable path to a better life. You're also wrong that they're not entitled to it - it's in the Constitution. But if parents are making efforts to instill that lesson at home, then the lesson that sinks in at a failing school is this: you are not going to find that path here. Yeah, there are some extraordinary kids who are able to overcome the psychological barrier that a failing school puts up every day - where just walking in feels like punishment - but by the definition of the word, everyone can't be extraordinary. Kids as young as first grade know when they're in a shitty school (I know, my students told me). The ones who can get out do so; the ones who can't are riding on a vicious cycle of low expectation that starts early and transcends generations.

The lesson in the TAL episode is that if kids can see the path, they're MUCH more likely to get on it. And yeah, that's simplistic but empirically true.

Can you please explain then the situation I quoted earlier? I live in a city in the South where every student in a failing school has a right to go to any other public school or some private ones for free. We also have magnet schools.

Also, in my city the real estate is very cheap, we don't have the situation like in DC where you can't afford to live in a good school district. You can. You can rent an apartment in the best school area for $600, the houses are very affordable. Right now I can buy a house in the best school district for $135,000. Median income is around $50K.

Yet, we still ended up have with the same result. Failing schools are black. Thriving schools are white.

How do you explain this? Please do.

You keep harping on this $600 a month rent in a great school boundary, so let's do some math together.

Our hypothetical family is a single mom and her two children, ages 2 and 6. Mom works 50 hours per week making the federal minimum wage of $7.25/hour (you said you're in the south so I'm going to assume that your state doesn't have a higher minimum wage). She makes $362/week, pre-tax (for the purposes of our exercise we won't worry about taxes). She works 52 weeks a year since she doesn't have any time off, so she makes an untaxed $18,850 per year. Her $600 rent is $7200 per year. Daycare for her youngest is $100/week since you are in a low COL area, or $5200/year. She's spending $12,400/year on rent and daycare. That leaves $6,450 left. That breaks down to $537/month to cover food, all bills, transportation, insurance (her minimum wage job obviously isn't providing insurance), before and aftercare, and everything else that she might need for her family to survive.

So no, that $600 a month rent in the best school boundary no longer seems so affordable. It's all relative.

Let's go further, not sure when you last worked a minimum or near minimum wage job, but they suck, they are exhausting jobs that you do because being homeless sucks more or you are 16. So how much do you think this person can and is able to come home and do extra flash cards, do that extra science experiment, read that extra book? You don't. The problem gets even more difficult when you consider the shifts they have to work and if they will even know their shift that week. Never mind the stress of just surviving.

Sure there are some shiftless, lazy people that would nothing for their kids if they won the lottery tomorrow, but that does not describe the majority of the working poor in America, just in your imagination.