Oldest Quran Manuscript discovered in Birmingham

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And here we go on the merry-go-round again. Haven't these points been made before and all this discussed to death? Even the jizhya tax was thoroughly explained as a tax to DEFEND non-Muslims living under Muslim rule, should the community be under tax. Only Muslims were compelled to fight in war, not non-Muslims. As such, non-Muslims were protected by Muslims and the tax was compensation. Google this yourself rather than opening up another mind numbing debate. The commandment to kill was only in times of war and in self defense. After all, Muslims in the Quran are permitted to marry Jews and Christian women. So what, the Muslim God said marry the infidels, okay, but then kill them immediately after consummation? Thats the proof that the commandment to kill was only in times of war and self defense. End.Of.Story.

The explanation of jizhya as the price of protection is only one interpretation, and it's not scripturally grounded. The only explanation of the non-Muslim tax in the Quran is that of an expression of submission - "until they pay the tax and consider themselves subdued." It doesn't say "until they pay the tax so that they can be protected during wars." Quranically, jizhya is an acceptance of submission to the Muslim rule, nothing else. Additionally, unlike other fees collected by the Muslim state, the amount of jizhya has never been fixed. It's left to the discretion of the ruler.

Exactly. Abrahamic faiths pay the tax to Muslims so that Muslims won't fight *them*, i.e. Muslims won't fight Christians or Jews who pay the tax and are sufficiently subdued. The choices for Abrahamic faiths being to convert to Islam, pay the tax, or die. This can, and today is often, spun into "Christians or Jews don't have to fight anybody (Muslim or otherwise)." However, it seems unlikely the earliest Muslims wouldn't have wanted to fill their armies with Christians and Jews, even jizhya payers, who refused to convert to Islam.

Someone obviously hasn't read up on the history of the Ottoman empire...

Someone obviously is confusing the "earliest Muslims" (when the Quran was revealed) with the Ottoman empire....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WHO gives a damn if the OP implied her religion was more authentic and declares it to be so? We are told every day that if we don't accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, we are doomed to hell. That's provocative too, but I get that it's their belief and they have a right to their own belief. Yes, Muslims do believe their religious book is more authentic than the Bible. Yes, Muslims do believe the Bible was significantly altered. But - they still believe both Jews and Christians may go to Heaven, despite having altered their book or misinterpreted God's law. You're just bored and looking to pick a fight. Take up knitting instead.

WHO tells you "every day" that you are doomed to hell if you don't accept Jesus? Nobody here on DCUM, that's for sure. About once a week somebody here explains that that's a minority view among certain Christians, but it's certainly not held by many Christians.

If I had a dollar for every time I was told by a stranger that Jesus loves me or to let Jesus save me I'd be a rich girl. Perhaps you don't experience this, but those of us who are obviously not Christian are subjected to this on a regular basis. Not every day, but to the point where it is annoying.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And here we go on the merry-go-round again. Haven't these points been made before and all this discussed to death? Even the jizhya tax was thoroughly explained as a tax to DEFEND non-Muslims living under Muslim rule, should the community be under tax. Only Muslims were compelled to fight in war, not non-Muslims. As such, non-Muslims were protected by Muslims and the tax was compensation. Google this yourself rather than opening up another mind numbing debate. The commandment to kill was only in times of war and in self defense. After all, Muslims in the Quran are permitted to marry Jews and Christian women. So what, the Muslim God said marry the infidels, okay, but then kill them immediately after consummation? Thats the proof that the commandment to kill was only in times of war and self defense. End.Of.Story.

The explanation of jizhya as the price of protection is only one interpretation, and it's not scripturally grounded. The only explanation of the non-Muslim tax in the Quran is that of an expression of submission - "until they pay the tax and consider themselves subdued." It doesn't say "until they pay the tax so that they can be protected during wars." Quranically, jizhya is an acceptance of submission to the Muslim rule, nothing else. Additionally, unlike other fees collected by the Muslim state, the amount of jizhya has never been fixed. It's left to the discretion of the ruler.

Another correction: Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women, but this doesn't work in reverse. A Muslim woman can only marry the guy if he converts to Islam.

First PP, why do you keep making dodgy statements like this? You should know by now that we aren't a bunch of easy targets for conversion who will swallow this stuff whole. Somebody here is usually going to challenge you if you misrepresent your religion.

Who's trying to convert you? You can have a debate or conversation without the intention to convert the other person lol

[Muslima]

Oh boy... This is not about you people, get over yourselves. It may surprise you, but the world operates at least occasionally without conspiracy. No provocation on my part, old manuscripts fascinate me, especially ones about Islam and this one about the Qu'ran is a fascinating discovery, worth sharing, tis all. Didn't know something so simple was going to offend..

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:Oh boy... This is not about you people, get over yourselves. It may surprise you, but the world operates at least occasionally without conspiracy. No provocation on my part, old manuscripts fascinate me, especially ones about Islam and this one about the Qu'ran is a fascinating discovery, worth sharing, tis all. Didn't know something so simple was going to offend..

Not offend; I didn't find it offensive. I don't think provocative = offensive. I did find it incredibly naive, however. Like a child who saw a bite taken out of a cookie the morning of Christmas and gleefully announce to his friends that he has proof that Santa Clause went to his house and therefore believes his toys are more authentic with an "unparalleled degree of certainty".

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:
And here we go on the merry-go-round again. Haven't these points been made before and all this discussed to death? Even the jizhya tax was thoroughly explained as a tax to DEFEND non-Muslims living under Muslim rule, should the community be under tax. Only Muslims were compelled to fight in war, not non-Muslims. As such, non-Muslims were protected by Muslims and the tax was compensation. Google this yourself rather than opening up another mind numbing debate. The commandment to kill was only in times of war and in self defense. After all, Muslims in the Quran are permitted to marry Jews and Christian women. So what, the Muslim God said marry the infidels, okay, but then kill them immediately after consummation? Thats the proof that the commandment to kill was only in times of war and self defense. End.Of.Story.

The explanation of jizhya as the price of protection is only one interpretation, and it's not scripturally grounded. The only explanation of the non-Muslim tax in the Quran is that of an expression of submission - "until they pay the tax and consider themselves subdued." It doesn't say "until they pay the tax so that they can be protected during wars." Quranically, jizhya is an acceptance of submission to the Muslim rule, nothing else. Additionally, unlike other fees collected by the Muslim state, the amount of jizhya has never been fixed. It's left to the discretion of the ruler.

Another correction: Muslim men can marry non-Muslim women, but this doesn't work in reverse. A Muslim woman can only marry the guy if he converts to Islam.

First PP, why do you keep making dodgy statements like this? You should know by now that we aren't a bunch of easy targets for conversion who will swallow this stuff whole. Somebody here is usually going to challenge you if you misrepresent your religion.

Who's trying to convert you? You can have a debate or conversation without the intention to convert the other person lol

C'mon, please. Lots of what's above is typical Dawwah (conversion) stuff. "We're all about peace, in fact jizhya is just meant to relieve you non-believers of the need to fight wars, what a great deal, huh?"

Next up will be "We Muslims believe the same things that Christians do, we just don't think Jesus was divine, and isn't that Trinity idea nutty, huh?" (Oh wait, the gospel and quranic messages are actually very different, which is what really matters.)

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:Oh boy... This is not about you people, get over yourselves. It may surprise you, but the world operates at least occasionally without conspiracy. No provocation on my part, old manuscripts fascinate me, especially ones about Islam and this one about the Qu'ran is a fascinating discovery, worth sharing, tis all. Didn't know something so simple was going to offend..

I often wonder if Muslima and Snarky Muslim Poster are the same person. The similarities between this post and 15:34 (where Anonymous apparently felt free to be snarkier) seem to suggest as much.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WHO gives a damn if the OP implied her religion was more authentic and declares it to be so? We are told every day that if we don't accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, we are doomed to hell. That's provocative too, but I get that it's their belief and they have a right to their own belief. Yes, Muslims do believe their religious book is more authentic than the Bible. Yes, Muslims do believe the Bible was significantly altered. But - they still believe both Jews and Christians may go to Heaven, despite having altered their book or misinterpreted God's law. You're just bored and looking to pick a fight. Take up knitting instead.

WHO tells you "every day" that you are doomed to hell if you don't accept Jesus? Nobody here on DCUM, that's for sure. About once a week somebody here explains that that's a minority view among certain Christians, but it's certainly not held by many Christians.

If I had a dollar for every time I was told by a stranger that Jesus loves me or to let Jesus save me I'd be a rich girl. Perhaps you don't experience this, but those of us who are obviously not Christian are subjected to this on a regular basis. Not every day, but to the point where it is annoying.

Wow, where do you live? Not in the DMV area, I'm guessing. This happens to me maybe every six months. And what does "obviously not Christian" mean anyway, the Christian population is so diverse that this statement is meaningless.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WHO gives a damn if the OP implied her religion was more authentic and declares it to be so? We are told every day that if we don't accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, we are doomed to hell. That's provocative too, but I get that it's their belief and they have a right to their own belief. Yes, Muslims do believe their religious book is more authentic than the Bible. Yes, Muslims do believe the Bible was significantly altered. But - they still believe both Jews and Christians may go to Heaven, despite having altered their book or misinterpreted God's law. You're just bored and looking to pick a fight. Take up knitting instead.

WHO tells you "every day" that you are doomed to hell if you don't accept Jesus? Nobody here on DCUM, that's for sure. About once a week somebody here explains that that's a minority view among certain Christians, but it's certainly not held by many Christians.

If I had a dollar for every time I was told by a stranger that Jesus loves me or to let Jesus save me I'd be a rich girl. Perhaps you don't experience this, but those of us who are obviously not Christian are subjected to this on a regular basis. Not every day, but to the point where it is annoying.

Wow, where do you live? Not in the DMV area, I'm guessing. This happens to me maybe every six months. And what does "obviously not Christian" mean anyway, the Christian population is so diverse that this statement is meaningless.

Also, a few people telling you once in a while that "Jesus loves you" is not exactly the same as "we are told every day that if we don't accept Jesus then we are doomed to hell."

LOL

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:WHO gives a damn if the OP implied her religion was more authentic and declares it to be so? We are told every day that if we don't accept Jesus Christ as our Savior, we are doomed to hell. That's provocative too, but I get that it's their belief and they have a right to their own belief. Yes, Muslims do believe their religious book is more authentic than the Bible. Yes, Muslims do believe the Bible was significantly altered. But - they still believe both Jews and Christians may go to Heaven, despite having altered their book or misinterpreted God's law. You're just bored and looking to pick a fight. Take up knitting instead.

WHO tells you "every day" that you are doomed to hell if you don't accept Jesus? Nobody here on DCUM, that's for sure. About once a week somebody here explains that that's a minority view among certain Christians, but it's certainly not held by many Christians.

If I had a dollar for every time I was told by a stranger that Jesus loves me or to let Jesus save me I'd be a rich girl. Perhaps you don't experience this, but those of us who are obviously not Christian are subjected to this on a regular basis. Not every day, but to the point where it is annoying.

Wow, where do you live? Not in the DMV area, I'm guessing. This happens to me maybe every six months. And what does "obviously not Christian" mean anyway, the Christian population is so diverse that this statement is meaningless.

Also, a few people telling you once in a while that "Jesus loves you" is not exactly the same as "we are told every day that if we don't accept Jesus then we are doomed to hell."

LOL

Well to be fair I don't see muslims going around saying convert or you are doomed to hell on a daily basis...at least not any more than I see christians telling people to let jesus save them. Also a note to the PP, being told that "jesus will save you" is essentially saying that you're going to hell otherwise. I don't know why you chose to focus on the "jesus loves you" part and left out the other part they mentioned. Let's end this stupid discussion instead of going in circles.

OP obviously posted because it was interesting to them and wanted to share it. If you're interested, great read up! If not then really who cares, move on. I didn't see anything that could be interpreted as inflammatory or provocative (unless you count the replies to the OP).

[Anonymous]

I've been approached plenty of times by christians telling me to let jesus save me. I can't remember one time a muslim approached me and told me I should convert...not once. I guess that explains who is spreading that hateful crap about going to hell if you dont convert

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been approached plenty of times by christians telling me to let jesus save me. I can't remember one time a muslim approached me and told me I should convert...not once. I guess that explains who is spreading that hateful crap about going to hell if you dont convert

And yet, this whole thread could be read as a Muslim conversion effort. Islam has unparalleled authenticity... jizhya is a gift to the unconverted...Muslim men and women can marry whomever they want....

Jizhya is part of a choice the Quran gives Abrahamic faiths, to convert, or pay the tax, or die. True, no mention of hell, but that can be assumed.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been approached plenty of times by christians telling me to let jesus save me. I can't remember one time a muslim approached me and told me I should convert...not once. I guess that explains who is spreading that hateful crap about going to hell if you dont convert

And yet, this whole thread could be read as a Muslim conversion effort. Islam has unparalleled authenticity... jizhya is a gift to the unconverted...Muslim men and women can marry whomever they want....

Jizhya is part of a choice the Quran gives Abrahamic faiths, to convert, or pay the tax, or die. True, no mention of hell, but that can be assumed.

OP brought up none of those points, except the authenticity of the quran. They are not arguing the authenticity of other religions, simply saying that this bolsters the evidence that the Quran has remained unchanged for a long time. I see nothing wrong with that, and it's hard to argue otherwise. All this other stuff you mentioned has nothing to do with the OP, but was brought up by people accusing them of being provocative for posting a link to a historical artifact. I think the people that thought a historical discovery is inflammatory or provocative need some help. It is, after all, a piece of history and has no bearing whatsoever on their lives.

Anyone in this thread that saw this as more than the sharing of a historical artifact, has some other issues they need to deal with.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:I've been approached plenty of times by christians telling me to let jesus save me. I can't remember one time a muslim approached me and told me I should convert...not once. I guess that explains who is spreading that hateful crap about going to hell if you dont convert

And yet, this whole thread could be read as a Muslim conversion effort. Islam has unparalleled authenticity... jizhya is a gift to the unconverted...Muslim men and women can marry whomever they want....

Jizhya is part of a choice the Quran gives Abrahamic faiths, to convert, or pay the tax, or die. True, no mention of hell, but that can be assumed.

Im trying to understand how this relates in any way to what I said about being approached by people to convert. Please help me out here. None of what you typed has anything to do with purpose of this thread, which was a link to a BBC article on the discovery of an old text. If someone posts a link to the discovery of an old scripture does that make it an attempt to convert people to christianity? The logic involved here baffles me.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I've been approached plenty of times by christians telling me to let jesus save me. I can't remember one time a muslim approached me and told me I should convert...not once. I guess that explains who is spreading that hateful crap about going to hell if you dont convert

YET.

It's clear around the world that once Islam becomes a certain large percentile of the population, the rate of conversion or 'disappearance' of other faiths goes sky high.

It's not like that here in the U.S. which is one of the reasons the vast majority of Muslims here are peaceful. Something goes awfully wrong though when the numbers get high, I'm not sure why that is. The larger the numbers, the greater the power of the radicals.

That said, I have had 2 Muslims talk to me about Islam, give me a Koran and a book that explains it for lay people and tell me they are praying for me to find their correct path. I am close friends with someone they are also friends with so I do think they felt comfortable with me enough to say that though.

That plus, I'm not of an Abrahamic faith so even jizya wouldn't save me from slaughter in their eyes.