Upper middle class

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:http://money.usnews.com/money/personal-finance/articles/2014/04/24/what-it-means-to-be-middle-class-today?page=2

According to this middle class would be 50% higher and lower than the median income. In the US that means: $25-76K. So those of you making $350K or 800K etc should accept that you are rich. I appreciate that you may not feel like what you think rich feels like because you don't have as big of a house or have luxury cars or something but seriously...you are wealthy.

Here's why you may not think you're wealthy--from the article: "As you work your way up the income ladder, inequality grows," he says. "If people make $104,096 per year, which puts them in the richest 20 percent of the population, they feel ‘relatively’ poor because they compare themselves to people in the top 1 percent of the income distribution – people making over $500,000, but primarily millionaires."

Wealth and riches are assets. A high income doesn't mean you have or are building wealth.

Fine. But it does mean--at the time you are earning that high income, you are upper class, 1% whatever. NOT middle class or upper middle class. Why can people not just admit it when they are upper class or rich? To say you make $350K or $500k or even $800k and claim to be in the middle class is insulting to people actually in the middle class. You may be spending all of your half a million on stuff so think you're not rich because you're saving X for retirement and Y for college and spending x on your big mortgage but you have that money to do those things. You don't have to be a billionaire to be rich in this country.

Maybe I'm doing it wrong, but I draw a distinction between upper middle class, upper class and rich. To me, upper middle class are the people you mention above that are earning maybe 250k to 550k or so. The people earning from $550k and up, etc. are the 1% in this area and to me that means upper class. To me, rich is someone that doesn't really work at a job and earn a salary. Maybe someone who has a net worth in the 10M - 15M+ range and up who can work if they choose, but doesn't have to. That to me is "rich" vs. upper class. Rich being more a net worth kind of thing and upper class being more of a high HHI kind of thing.

[Anonymous]

Class is not just about HHI, or even about net worth.

It is a much larger social construct: educational background, cultural preferences in food, entertainment, music, art, parenting practices, expectations, knowledge of the wider world outside of your own home community, etc. To me, if someone was born and raised in an upper class environment, but fell upon hard times as an adult, I would still consider them as belonging to the "upper class" socially.

Similarly, I would consider someone who had "made it big" from a modest background as upper class, even if as adults they have amassed a high net worth, but overtime, if their children and grandchildren are able maintain that position, then the future generations could be considered upper class.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Class is not just about HHI, or even about net worth.

It is a much larger social construct: educational background, cultural preferences in food, entertainment, music, art, parenting practices, expectations, knowledge of the wider world outside of your own home community, etc. To me, if someone was born and raised in an upper class environment, but fell upon hard times as an adult, I would still consider them as belonging to the "upper class" socially.

Similarly, I would consider someone who had "made it big" from a modest background as upper class, even if as adults they have amassed a high net worth, but overtime, if their children and grandchildren are able maintain that position, then the future generations could be considered upper class.

I agree that HHI or net worth does not define class.As there are broke families with names,traditions,family prints and heirlooms.To me it's upper class.
And you pretty much can't buy it.

[Anonymous]

So every other class is about money and wealth but upper class is entirely a social construct -- you have to be born into it? Whatever were we thinking when we didn't make George Washington King of America???

[Anonymous]

I think we are upper middle class. $220,000 HHI, which I know is low for these boards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:So every other class is about money and wealth but upper class is entirely a social construct -- you have to be born into it? Whatever were we thinking when we didn't make George Washington King of America???

No I didn't mean to put it this way.I was implying that not only HHI and net worth defines upper class(in my eyes!).And definetely does not define alone.You can become upper class or can be born with it,it's a mix of education+inner standards+tastes+way of thinking.It can all be developed with time,desire and of course money,or can be inborn.

[Anonymous]

"Anonymous wrote:
What about:

Upper Class - HHI of 550k and higher
Upper Middle Class - HHI of 200k - 549k
Middle Class - HHI of 75k - 199k

More accurate?


Average American HHI is around what 50k now?
So is America mostly working class? "

You simply cannot have one number that makes any sense for our entire very very big country. 50K in Kansas and 50K with a job in DC are VASTLY different things. And many of the high paying DC area jobs cannot simply be replicated in Kansas. My job only exists here.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:"Anonymous wrote:
What about:

Upper Class - HHI of 550k and higher
Upper Middle Class - HHI of 200k - 549k
Middle Class - HHI of 75k - 199k

More accurate?


Average American HHI is around what 50k now?
So is America mostly working class? "

You simply cannot have one number that makes any sense for our entire very very big country. 50K in Kansas and 50K with a job in DC are VASTLY different things. And many of the high paying DC area jobs cannot simply be replicated in Kansas. My job only exists here.

Yes, someone upthread offered the +/- 50% of median income definition of middle class. Well, median income in Arlington is $120k, two and a half times the national median. I think you do have to take cost of living into account.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:DH and I have HHI of $180k a year and a combined net worth of $550k. I consider us upper middle class financially, although our lifestyle is pretty solidly middle class (home/location choice, how much we travel, where we shop, etc).

You are sold middle class in this area.

Yeah, we live in an area where the median income is 59k for the metro area and for our particular town is 76k.

Nationally, the 70th percentle median net worth for our age is $33k.

So while our income and net worth isn't impressive by DCUM standards, I think when you look at the big picture - we are probably upper middle class. And I'm glad we"re content living solidly middle class (house is right in line with median house value, used cars, not.a lot of exotic travel, etc). DH grew up nearly in poverty, and I grew up middle class with parents who bootstrapped their way from blue collar.

[Anonymous]

This thread cracks me up. I feel UMC on a HHI under $200k. I have no debt but the mortgage (modest), a vacation house, three cars (all paid off) and a fully funded 529 for the kid (one kid). We take great vacations (last year was Europe for two weeks). We fully fund our 401k's.

I guess it's just the choice of lifestyle. We don't have a maid, a nanny, a cook. I don't do all my shopping at Whole Foods. I don't get manicures and pedicures (can't stand them actually- don't enjoy wasting all that time). My two houses are probably worth one of the high earners houses. I don't give a rats ass about what "the Jones's" are doing. I work to live, not live to work...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:This thread cracks me up. I feel UMC on a HHI under $200k. I have no debt but the mortgage (modest), a vacation house, three cars (all paid off) and a fully funded 529 for the kid (one kid). We take great vacations (last year was Europe for two weeks). We fully fund our 401k's.

I guess it's just the choice of lifestyle. We don't have a maid, a nanny, a cook. I don't do all my shopping at Whole Foods. I don't get manicures and pedicures (can't stand them actually- don't enjoy wasting all that time). My two houses are probably worth one of the high earners houses. I don't give a rats ass about what "the Jones's" are doing. I work to live, not live to work...

Having just one kid is actually the biggest lifestyle choice in your scenario.

[Anonymous]

If you are middle class, then you bring your lunch to work, you mow your own lawn, you clean your own house. You go on vacation for one week at the beach or the mountains. You spend your other vacation with family. You have two big spurge vacations for your children to remember when they are growing up- one to Disney and you stay at the value hotels if you stay on site. Your children go to public school swim in local pools, join the scouts and play baseball- but not year round. Your children go to scout sleep away camp and maybe a week at camp grandma. You may go to church, synogogue or mosque, or not. You drive american cars or honda and toyotas. You save up and scrimp for things. You go camping. Your children get financial aid when they go to college. They take a few AP classes, but no prep classes for SATs or CogAts. In HS, your children do not have their own car.

You are upper middle class if you do the above, but out source a few things, like lawn care or have a every other week cleaner. You get to take your kids to Europe once and they may get to go again in HS with a group. When you go to disney you stay at the second tier hotels, if you stay on site. You save up frequent flyer miles for trips. You can pay for college if you save and you are likely to by the prepaid tuition play for state schools. Your children take private music lessons, they may be on a travel sports team, they go to a few weeks of expensive science camps or art or theatre camps- but not the whole summer. They are on the a summer swim team at a local private pool. They are also in scouts. They take 6 AP classes and have tutors when they stumble. In HS, your children drive a 10+ year old handme down car. Your children may have learned to ski locally and ski once or twice each year- day trips each time.

You are in the wealthy class if you outsource most of the above, have nanny instead of SACC, take an expensive vacation every year, belong to a country club and/or have your children in private school. Your children drive a newer car or perhaps you bought it specifically for them. Your children have had a tutor most of their lives to get an edge. They take 8-12 APs. You may stay a month or more "at the beach" or "in the mountains" or in France in the summer. Your children know how to ski and ski for winter break every year. Your children have been to London, Paris and Hawaii. They have been to NYC several times. They have had a apple phone since 5th grade and unlimited texts and data (or enough).

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:If you are middle class, then you bring your lunch to work, you mow your own lawn, you clean your own house. You go on vacation for one week at the beach or the mountains. You spend your other vacation with family. You have two big spurge vacations for your children to remember when they are growing up- one to Disney and you stay at the value hotels if you stay on site. Your children go to public school swim in local pools, join the scouts and play baseball- but not year round. Your children go to scout sleep away camp and maybe a week at camp grandma. You may go to church, synogogue or mosque, or not. You drive american cars or honda and toyotas. You save up and scrimp for things. You go camping. Your children get financial aid when they go to college. They take a few AP classes, but no prep classes for SATs or CogAts. In HS, your children do not have their own car.

You are upper middle class if you do the above, but out source a few things, like lawn care or have a every other week cleaner. You get to take your kids to Europe once and they may get to go again in HS with a group. When you go to disney you stay at the second tier hotels, if you stay on site. You save up frequent flyer miles for trips. You can pay for college if you save and you are likely to by the prepaid tuition play for state schools. Your children take private music lessons, they may be on a travel sports team, they go to a few weeks of expensive science camps or art or theatre camps- but not the whole summer. They are on the a summer swim team at a local private pool. They are also in scouts. They take 6 AP classes and have tutors when they stumble. In HS, your children drive a 10+ year old handme down car. Your children may have learned to ski locally and ski once or twice each year- day trips each time.

You are in the wealthy class if you outsource most of the above, have nanny instead of SACC, take an expensive vacation every year, belong to a country club and/or have your children in private school. Your children drive a newer car or perhaps you bought it specifically for them. Your children have had a tutor most of their lives to get an edge. They take 8-12 APs. You may stay a month or more "at the beach" or "in the mountains" or in France in the summer. Your children know how to ski and ski for winter break every year. Your children have been to London, Paris and Hawaii. They have been to NYC several times. They have had a apple phone since 5th grade and unlimited texts and data (or enough).

Very interesting take on this topic. Based on this assessment, I'm between UMC and wealthy. I'm 07:40. On a HHI of under $200k. I think the one kid really, really helps...

[Anonymous]

Anonymou[b wrote:s]If you are middle class, then you bring your lunch to work, you mow your own lawn, you clean your own house. You go on vacation for one week at the beach or the mountains. You spend your other vacation with family. You have two big spurge vacations for your children to remember when they are growing up- one to Disney and you stay at the value hotels if you stay on site. Your children go to public school swim in local pools, join the scouts and play baseball- but not year round. Your children go to scout sleep away camp and maybe a week at camp grandma. You may go to church, synogogue or mosque, or not. You drive american cars or honda and toyotas. You save up and scrimp for things. You go camping. Your children get financial aid when they go to college. They take a few AP classes, but no prep classes for SATs or CogAts. In HS, your children do not have their own car.[/b]

You are upper middle class if you do the above, but out source a few things, like lawn care or have a every other week cleaner. You get to take your kids to Europe once and they may get to go again in HS with a group. When you go to disney you stay at the second tier hotels, if you stay on site. You save up frequent flyer miles for trips. You can pay for college if you save and you are likely to by the prepaid tuition play for state schools. Your children take private music lessons, they may be on a travel sports team, they go to a few weeks of expensive science camps or art or theatre camps- but not the whole summer. They are on the a summer swim team at a local private pool. They are also in scouts. They take 6 AP classes and have tutors when they stumble. In HS, your children drive a 10+ year old handme down car. Your children may have learned to ski locally and ski once or twice each year- day trips each time.

You are in the wealthy class if you outsource most of the above, have nanny instead of SACC, take an expensive vacation every year, belong to a country club and/or have your children in private school. Your children drive a newer car or perhaps you bought it specifically for them. Your children have had a tutor most of their lives to get an edge. They take 8-12 APs. You may stay a month or more "at the beach" or "in the mountains" or in France in the summer. Your children know how to ski and ski for winter break every year. Your children have been to London, Paris and Hawaii. They have been to NYC several times. They have had a apple phone since 5th grade and unlimited texts and data (or enough).

Middle class is us - we camp nearly every weekend from May til Labor Day. I (DW) mows the grass every week and cleans the house myself. Went to Disney this spring break and stayed at the Fairfield Inn. My car will be 10 years old this summer. DH's is 5 years old (Toyota). Kids go to public school. I teach DD flute myself. We can't ski as a family as DD dislocated her knee last fall and sprained her ankle the fall before that playing recreation soccer.

The only thing we won't do according to your middle class model is get financial aid. WE have a HHI of nearly $2M and a net worth reaching $10 M.

oh and we have a mutt we adopted from the animal shelter for $70. We love her to death!!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Sounds like we're getting there, but we still might have a problem with the middle class being too large. If we use what we have in the thread so far we have:

Upper Class - HHI of 550k and higher
Upper Middle Class - HHI of 300k - 549k
Middle Class - HHI of 75k - 299k (seems too much of a range, no?)...

For a family of 4

1% >$400k
Upper class > $250k
Upper middle $150k-250k
Middle Class $100-150
Lower middle class $75k-100k

Yeah, this sounds about right to me for the DC area (I'd move those amounts way down in other parts of the country.)

My family is upper middle by this scale, and that's exactly the way it feels to me. Definitely living higher on the hog than I did during my middle class childhood.