Dumbing down Flint Hill AAP?

[Anonymous]

OP here.

I really want to thank you all for taking the time to provide some very valuable input. This is very helpful. It allowed me to narrow down the issues to those we most care about.

I apologize if the title came out as rude but it is not my intention.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We currently have one child in the AAP class at FHES. I am very disappointed and shocked at the decision FHES has made. Having experienced the program as it stands, I have to agree that FHES is dismantling its AAP curricula. We have not had any issues of cliques and kids not wanting to be with each other in the APP class. In our experience having kids together that want to learn more and have the capacity to excel resulted in everyone nudging each other forward. Saying that all kids can learn social studies and science at an advanced level is absurd. We would never say that about kids in a traveling vs. non traveling soccer team. The school could have met their objective of more intermingling by letting the kids have specials, lunch, and recess together. If you want an environment of peers where your child will be encouraged to do their best in academics don't stay at FHES. If you think the social aspects of school are important and the transition to a new school will be too much for your 8 year old, then, stay at FHES. The emotional well-being of children is also important.

Also, I don't understand the need for gifted kids to be surrounded by peers to encourage them. Aren't they supposed to be self motivated?

(FYI, I am not the OP or any PP.)
The larger issue is not just peers but teaching. When our child was in mixed classes, the teachers simply had to give more of their time and attention to the kids who needed more help, which makes sense. But that left the kids who were doing more and doing it faster to either to do busy work, rather than more challenging and in-depth work. More advanced work doesn't come in the form of busy work; it requires the teacher to be engaged in discussion with the kids and to have time inside and outside class to create (and grade) bigger projects and papers etc. That doesn't really happen in "differentiated classrooms" from what we observed. This hurts not just AAP qualified kids but the Gen Ed kids who are also moving faster and wanting more to do that's more interesting. The teachers aren't at fault -- they have to bring up the kids who are having trouble and that gets priority, from the school as well as the individual teachers, over any "enrichment." The idea of the center model was not just for students but for teachers, to allow them to teach at a different level and pace than they can in classes where the range of aptitude is much larger.

We are talking specifically about science and social studies. What particularly is part of the AAP science and social studies curriculum that you think the kids in general ed will slow down the class for? At only 2-3 hours a week every other week, it just seems like there's only so much a teacher can teach in those subjects anyway. For instance, in 3rd this year, the kids worked in groups to make a poster of an ancient culture. For science they made a computerized report. These could be elaborate or basic, but all the kids in the school did them. General Ed and AAP. It wasn't much of a problem.

That said....there's no reason theoretically not to have AAP kids grouped for some subjects and not grouped for others, as long as the teaching is able to give all kids real differentiation and meet their needs. Maybe it can and does happen; it's just not something we saw as realistically happening in our base school (which was not FH). To the OP: I do agree with a PP who noted that your kid would be in the initial years of this new format (new to FH, at least) and that's something to consider. Yes, someone has to be first in any change. But if you are concerned about your child being in that first group (not just next year but as the new format moves up through sixth grade), then talk to the center school again about how it sees its classes as different from the model FH is going to be using.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:We currently have one child in the AAP class at FHES. I am very disappointed and shocked at the decision FHES has made. Having experienced the program as it stands, I have to agree that FHES is dismantling its AAP curricula. We have not had any issues of cliques and kids not wanting to be with each other in the APP class. In our experience having kids together that want to learn more and have the capacity to excel resulted in everyone nudging each other forward. Saying that all kids can learn social studies and science at an advanced level is absurd. We would never say that about kids in a traveling vs. non traveling soccer team. The school could have met their objective of more intermingling by letting the kids have specials, lunch, and recess together. If you want an environment of peers where your child will be encouraged to do their best in academics don't stay at FHES. If you think the social aspects of school are important and the transition to a new school will be too much for your 8 year old, then, stay at FHES. The emotional well-being of children is also important.

Also, I don't understand the need for gifted kids to be surrounded by peers to encourage them. Aren't they supposed to be self motivated?

(FYI, I am not the OP or any PP.)
The larger issue is not just peers but teaching. When our child was in mixed classes, the teachers simply had to give more of their time and attention to the kids who needed more help, which makes sense. But that left the kids who were doing more and doing it faster to either to do busy work, rather than more challenging and in-depth work. More advanced work doesn't come in the form of busy work; it requires the teacher to be engaged in discussion with the kids and to have time inside and outside class to create (and grade) bigger projects and papers etc. That doesn't really happen in "differentiated classrooms" from what we observed. This hurts not just AAP qualified kids but the Gen Ed kids who are also moving faster and wanting more to do that's more interesting. The teachers aren't at fault -- they have to bring up the kids who are having trouble and that gets priority, from the school as well as the individual teachers, over any "enrichment." The idea of the center model was not just for students but for teachers, to allow them to teach at a different level and pace than they can in classes where the range of aptitude is much larger.

That said....there's no reason theoretically not to have AAP kids grouped for some subjects and not grouped for others, as long as the teaching is able to give all kids real differentiation and meet their needs. Maybe it can and does happen; it's just not something we saw as realistically happening in our base school (which was not FH). To the OP: I do agree with a PP who noted that your kid would be in the initial years of this new format (new to FH, at least) and that's something to consider. Yes, someone has to be first in any change. But if you are concerned about your child being in that first group (not just next year but as the new format moves up through sixth grade), then talk to the center school again about how it sees its classes as different from the model FH is going to be using.

We are talking specifically about science and social studies. What particularly is part of the AAP science and social studies curriculum that you think the kids in general ed will slow down the class for? At only 2-3 hours a week every other week, it just seems like there's only so much a teacher can teach in those subjects anyway. For instance, in 3rd this year, the kids worked in groups to make a poster of an ancient culture. For science they made a computerized report. These could be elaborate or basic, but all the kids in the school did them. General Ed and AAP. It wasn't much of a problem.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dumb and proud of it is their motto. If you want a challenge for your DC, go to the center school.

Exhibit A why center schools need to be a thing of the past.

isn't that dumb and proud posting a slap at Flint Hill?

Yes - meaning that any school which is not a center must be "dumb and proud of it". Classic AAP parlance.

[Anonymous]

I just wanted to comment on the difference between GenEd and AAP for Social Studies, specifically for 4th grade.

DC 1 was in GenEd. I barely remember seeing much material come home. Unit tests were pretty straightforward facts. Not very challenging. Fairly easy to help DC study.

DC2 was in AAP. They covered material faster and in more detail. Lots of worksheets, questions asked in a variety of ways. They had a weekly newspaper that supplemented the unit. They had to read the paper on their own at home and they got tested on it every Friday. Tests on the newspaper were straightforward facts. The unit tests were very challenging. I did help DC study but the questions on the unit tests covered more than just facts- it tested how much you were able to assimilate information, inductive and deductive reasoning, making inferences.

Huge difference.

Both of them scored in the 99th percentile on Verbal Comprehension on the WISC.
DC 1 would not have been a good fit for 4th grade AAP in Social Studies. Personality-wise, would have hated all that testing and all that work.
DC 2 loved it, couldn't get enough of it, and excelled in it.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I just wanted to comment on the difference between GenEd and AAP for Social Studies, specifically for 4th grade.

DC 1 was in GenEd. I barely remember seeing much material come home. Unit tests were pretty straightforward facts. Not very challenging. Fairly easy to help DC study.

DC2 was in AAP. They covered material faster and in more detail. Lots of worksheets, questions asked in a variety of ways. They had a weekly newspaper that supplemented the unit. They had to read the paper on their own at home and they got tested on it every Friday. Tests on the newspaper were straightforward facts. The unit tests were very challenging. I did help DC study but the questions on the unit tests covered more than just facts- it tested how much you were able to assimilate information, inductive and deductive reasoning, making inferences.

Huge difference.

Both of them scored in the 99th percentile on Verbal Comprehension on the WISC.
DC 1 would not have been a good fit for 4th grade AAP in Social Studies. Personality-wise, would have hated all that testing and all that work.
DC 2 loved it, couldn't get enough of it, and excelled in it.

This is at Flint Hill I'm assuming? With the new change, do you think the school will water down this program and just say they are teaching the same information to the students they did before? Or do you think they will teach the same information as the previous stand alone AAP class and some kids will struggle with the work or hate it as you described DC 1?

[Anonymous]

21:05 here.
Sorry, I should have said that I don't have experience with Flint Hill but wanted to share my experience comparing 4th grade Social Studies between AAP and GenEd.


I do think they teach the same basic information, yes, but AAP goes into a lot more detail, and definitely does a lot more testing.
I also forgot to mention that in AAP, DC2 got cumulative tests in Social Studies with every single unit test. Two separate tests were given, one for the current unit, and then another one that covers everything from the very beginning of school. I thought it was a bit of overkill myself but DC2 never complained about it. It was amazing how much work they were doing in the classroom when all the kids are able to keep up with that pace.

I can see a school's attempt to teach the AAP curriculum to GenEd, but I think there will be some kids who would struggle with it- such as my DC1. Knowing from their WISC scores that they were similar in ability but their motivation and learning styles are so different. Would they come out with the same kind of basic knowledge? I think so. It's about finding the best fit for the child.

In a mixed GenEd and AAP classroom, I just don't see how the teacher can pace and differentiate effectively to where all the kids are getting maximum benefit.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:21:05 here.
Sorry, I should have said that I don't have experience with Flint Hill but wanted to share my experience comparing 4th grade Social Studies between AAP and GenEd.


I do think they teach the same basic information, yes, but AAP goes into a lot more detail, and definitely does a lot more testing.
I also forgot to mention that in AAP, DC2 got cumulative tests in Social Studies with every single unit test. Two separate tests were given, one for the current unit, and then another one that covers everything from the very beginning of school. I thought it was a bit of overkill myself but DC2 never complained about it. It was amazing how much work they were doing in the classroom when all the kids are able to keep up with that pace.

I can see a school's attempt to teach the AAP curriculum to GenEd, but I think there will be some kids who would struggle with it- such as my DC1. Knowing from their WISC scores that they were similar in ability but their motivation and learning styles are so different. Would they come out with the same kind of basic knowledge? I think so. It's about finding the best fit for the child.

In a mixed GenEd and AAP classroom, I just don't see how the teacher can pace and differentiate effectively to where all the kids are getting maximum benefit.

Was this a center or two different schools then? I haven't heard of a drastic difference in classes in a LLIV school. Typically the LLIV classroom already has non AAP kids in it anyway. This would just be adding more of them.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:21:05 here.
Sorry, I should have said that I don't have experience with Flint Hill but wanted to share my experience comparing 4th grade Social Studies between AAP and GenEd.


I do think they teach the same basic information, yes, but AAP goes into a lot more detail, and definitely does a lot more testing.
I also forgot to mention that in AAP, DC2 got cumulative tests in Social Studies with every single unit test. Two separate tests were given, one for the current unit, and then another one that covers everything from the very beginning of school. I thought it was a bit of overkill myself but DC2 never complained about it. It was amazing how much work they were doing in the classroom when all the kids are able to keep up with that pace.

I can see a school's attempt to teach the AAP curriculum to GenEd, but I think there will be some kids who would struggle with it- such as my DC1. Knowing from their WISC scores that they were similar in ability but their motivation and learning styles are so different. Would they come out with the same kind of basic knowledge? I think so. It's about finding the best fit for the child.

In a mixed GenEd and AAP classroom, I just don't see how the teacher can pace and differentiate effectively to where all the kids are getting maximum benefit.

OP here. Thank you so much for sharing your experience. This is exactly what I am fearing is likely to happen at FH.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dumb and proud of it is their motto. If you want a challenge for your DC, go to the center school.

Exhibit A why center schools need to be a thing of the past.

isn't that dumb and proud posting a slap at Flint Hill?

Yes, and it comes from above -- the principal. He thinks that smart kids are a PITA and should go to the center school-- he is NOT in favor of the AAP program. He told me this and it seems nothing has changed since he did. I thought he was just being an a** but all the neighbors said the same. So if you want your kid in AAP, its not happening at FHES.

[Anonymous]

Hello, I know some people have been able to find out how many children have stayed at local level IV and how many have transferred out to the center. Where does one get this information? I am going crazy trying to figure out if we should stay or go to Sunrise Valley.
Thank you!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hello, I know some people have been able to find out how many children have stayed at local level IV and how many have transferred out to the center. Where does one get this information? I am going crazy trying to figure out if we should stay or go to Sunrise Valley.
Thank you!

Are you talking about next year? Think it through... if you haven't been required to submit your decision yet, then no one else has needed to submit theirs yet either... so the school wouldn't know how many are staying or going until the deadline has passed. If you are talking about years past, then go to the fcps dashboard, find the enrollment and capacity data for the school you want, and then click on the "transfer data" link at the middle/top. Scroll through to find your school's in-transfers and out-transfers... simple!!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dumb and proud of it is their motto. If you want a challenge for your DC, go to the center school.

Exhibit A why center schools need to be a thing of the past.

isn't that dumb and proud posting a slap at Flint Hill?

Yes, and it comes from above -- the principal. He thinks that smart kids are a PITA and should go to the center school-- he is NOT in favor of the AAP program. He told me this and it seems nothing has changed since he did. I thought he was just being an a** but all the neighbors said the same. So if you want your kid in AAP, its not happening at FHES.

+1000 the principal HATES the AAP program. So glad we left. Best decision ever.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Dumb and proud of it is their motto. If you want a challenge for your DC, go to the center school.

Exhibit A why center schools need to be a thing of the past.

isn't that dumb and proud posting a slap at Flint Hill?

Yes, and it comes from above -- the principal. He thinks that smart kids are a PITA and should go to the center school-- he is NOT in favor of the AAP program. He told me this and it seems nothing has changed since he did. I thought he was just being an a** but all the neighbors said the same. So if you want your kid in AAP, its not happening at FHES.

+1000 the principal HATES the AAP program. So glad we left. Best decision ever.

The principal is retiring at the end of the school year.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Hello, I know some people have been able to find out how many children have stayed at local level IV and how many have transferred out to the center. Where does one get this information? I am going crazy trying to figure out if we should stay or go to Sunrise Valley.
Thank you!

Are you talking about next year? Think it through... if you haven't been required to submit your decision yet, then no one else has needed to submit theirs yet either... so the school wouldn't know how many are staying or going until the deadline has passed. If you are talking about years past, then go to the fcps dashboard, find the enrollment and capacity data for the school you want, and then click on the "transfer data" link at the middle/top. Scroll through to find your school's in-transfers and out-transfers... simple!!

Yes, I meant for years past. Thank you for the dashboard info.