Government jobs for lawyers

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some agencies don't post on USA jobs for attorney positions, so it is key to monitor those you are looking at closely and know where they post.

I hear this all the time and would love for someone to post an example. Personally I haven't seen one.

State and CIA. Interviewed at both places, never from a usajobs listing.

IDK. I have interviewed at State from a USAJobs posting. Also, there is a posting for CIA attorney positions on USAJobs right now...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:OP I think you are looking for advice like - civil rights doj is more cushy than national courts or criminal frauds - or work for sec not HHS. It's very hard to give that advice because most people haven't worked at multiple agencies. Also your firm experience will factor into whether you are a good candidate. I work in a litigating section of main justice. My advice would be to:
1. Look for jobs that actually sound interesting to you.
2. Litigation jobs generally require more hours and travel but nowhere near what law firms do. The autonomy you have even when working a lot is priceless.
3. Main DOJ jobs vary in the amount of hours but you def want to do research on how much the sections travel.
4. Some AUSA jobs are pretty demanding but still not like the firm. They tend to pay less than main justice. But an ausa job that's not in a major city is pretty cushy.
5. Agency jobs (HHS, HUD etc) tend to be more 9-5.

Of course this is based on my experience and someone might chime in and say I don't know what I'm talking about. I guess my main point is don't apply for a job just because you think it is cushy because you probably won't get it and if you do you might be horribly bored. I don't know of any regular job (ie not White House counsels office or something like that) in the gov where you are going to work like you do at a law firm.

I know you were just giving examples, but do you happen to know what QOL is like at Criminal Frauds or National Courts?

[Anonymous]

I worked at a biglaw firm for eight very long years before I left for the government. I understand that you don't want to end up somewhere with similarly bad hours, just for less pay.

I was able to get in based on my niche practice area, not general litigation. But most agencies have a general counsel office that might not require niche experience and might be a good fit. As far as how the hours are, it depends not even by agency, but by department and by the work you do. For example, in my agency, the GC people are all over the map. The GC works all of the time (ex-biglaw partner), and the higher-level attorneys (also ex-biglaw people) work a ton (I see emails from them at all hours). The mid-level and junior people have much more manageable hours, and there is one senior attorney who focuses on FOIA work and her hours are good. I think you really have to try to figure out the schedules when you are interviewing without acting like you are just trying to leave the firm to work less.

FWIW, when I was at the firm, there were a couple of people who left for DOJ trial work and came back to the firm because they said they worked hours just as long with very little admin support and for less pay. This is obviously not universal, but it happens.

[Anonymous]

How easy is it to switch within gov't jobs once you get foot in the door? E.g., within DOJ or even from DOJ to SEC/CFTC?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How easy is it to switch within gov't jobs once you get foot in the door? E.g., within DOJ or even from DOJ to SEC/CFTC?

Based on my experience, it's not that easy. It really depends on your experience, although if you work often with another office/agency, it's helpful.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:How easy is it to switch within gov't jobs once you get foot in the door? E.g., within DOJ or even from DOJ to SEC/CFTC?

Not easy for a general commercial litigator easier if you have some experience in their practices

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some agencies don't post on USA jobs for attorney positions, so it is key to monitor those you are looking at closely and know where they post.

I hear this all the time and would love for someone to post an example. Personally I haven't seen one.

State and CIA. Interviewed at both places, never from a usajobs listing.

How did you find the positions? Is there a site where they post?

Also, what is "state"? Us non-govt lawyers are not familiar with govt slang, lol.

What is up with some people? They post on their own darn websites -- see careers sites on both agencies' pages. It's not some puzzle to find these jobs. It's a miracle you have a job to begin with with this cluelessness...

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Some agencies don't post on USA jobs for attorney positions, so it is key to monitor those you are looking at closely and know where they post.

I have never heard of this before. What are some of these agencies and how does one monitor their job openings if they do not post publicly?

+1 I am pretty sure they are required to post on USAJOBS if they are doing an open hiring process.

They are not. Excepted service attorney jobs are not required to be posted on USAjobs. For example, you will not find a corresponding USAjobs posting for all of these vacancies:
http://www.justice.gov/legal-careers/attorneys-vacancies

We've had this discussion before. Excepted Attorney positions are required to be posted on usa.jobs and there are a few exceptions that are suppose to be used only on a limited basis (i.e. time is of the essence). No one claiming that attorney jobs don't need to be on usa.jobs has ever provided a citation to support this assertion.

Could you post a citation to support your assertion that they are required to be posted? There isn't one. The requirement of public posting applies to competitive service jobs. 5 USC 3330 ("The Office of Personnel Management shall establish and keep current a comprehensive list of all announcements of vacant positions in the competitive service within each agency that are to be filled by appointment for more than one year and for which applications are being...") There is no corresponding requirement for excepted service Schedule A attorney jobs. It may be that most agencies use USAjobs, as it is the best way to reach a wide audience, but it is not required.

Not off the top of my head, but it has been posted on a similar thread in the past when this dispute arose, should be findable via search if one is so inclined. In addition, HR for my banking agency was quite clear that attorney positions were subject to the posting requirement. I've heard the same thing from attorney friends at other agencies. People grumble because of the time required to fill a position and the veteran preference requirement.

It is not findable via search because no such requirement exists. If you are the same person that suggested that nobody has ever provided a citation for the lack of posting requirement, I find it amusing that you base your conclusion on the existence of a requirement the fact that people "grumble." There is also a link provided up-post that proves that not all attorney vacancies are posted on USAjobs.

Nor does veterans preference apply to attorney jobs.

Again, you are wrong.

Actually she isn't.

[Anonymous]

My position is excepted service. I work at a large non-dod agency in the office of general counsel. We do not have to post on USA jobs since we are excepted service, nor is there veteran's preference. I was hired directly out of law school because I knew someone. Since I was hired directly out of law school, they sent me to extensive training- including courses at the JAG school in Charlottesville.

I work a compressed schedule. 7:30-5:00, with every other Friday off. I telework two days a week. My group does not litigate. I work late a couple times a year during our busy season at the end of the fiscal year. I believe in my agency's mission, so the work is rewarding even if the pay is not!

[Anonymous]

Some agencies pay better than others. DOJ attorneys have told me they are paid less because DOJ takes the position that it's an honor to represent the government in court. SEC and FDIC I've been told pay better then DOJ and have better benefits.

If you do a lot of trial work, then your hours will be longer than those who don't. A drug prosecutor will go to trial more than a health care fraud attorney, so that's one reason why the prosecutor has longer hours. You can burn out working drug cases due to the high volume, and can rotate to another section.

State and federal agencies occasionally lend their attorneys to DOJ where they're called SAUSAs (special assistant u.s. attorneys). It's a temporary gig, about 1-3 years. The lending agency is the employer and pays the salary, but the benefit of lending attorneys from an agency to DOJ helps both agencies that work a lot together. It's good to have your person in the same office as DOJ, and DOJ gets immediate access to the SAUSA, who has better insight about a specific area of law. I've known SEC, FDIC, FBI, SSA, HHS, and MFCU to lend their attorneys to DOJ. It's good experience for the SAUSA and can lead to a DOJ job.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My position is excepted service. I work at a large non-dod agency in the office of general counsel. We do not have to post on USA jobs since we are excepted service, nor is there veteran's preference. I was hired directly out of law school because I knew someone. Since I was hired directly out of law school, they sent me to extensive training- including courses at the JAG school in Charlottesville.

I work a compressed schedule. 7:30-5:00, with every other Friday off. I telework two days a week. My group does not litigate. I work late a couple times a year during our busy season at the end of the fiscal year. I believe in my agency's mission, so the work is rewarding even if the pay is not!

This is pretty useless unless you share the name of the agency. Why did you bother posting?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Dept of Health and Human Services likewise does not post its attorney jobs on USA Jobs. Several DoD agencies do not post their attorney positions on USA Jobs.

Really? I've definitely seen HhS attorney jobs in usajobs, including for its components like FDA.

[Anonymous]

I work 40 hrs plus 30 min lunch daily with no evenings or weekend work. I clock in and out and need to get permission from supervisor to take more than one hour lunch even if I'm not billing that time towards my daily 8 hrs. I'm more than seven years out from an ivy law school still making barely 75k.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:I work 40 hrs plus 30 min lunch daily with no evenings or weekend work. I clock in and out and need to get permission from supervisor to take more than one hour lunch even if I'm not billing that time towards my daily 8 hrs. I'm more than seven years out from an ivy law school still making barely 75k.

Which really shows how the manager can make a difference.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My position is excepted service. I work at a large non-dod agency in the office of general counsel. We do not have to post on USA jobs since we are excepted service, nor is there veteran's preference. I was hired directly out of law school because I knew someone. Since I was hired directly out of law school, they sent me to extensive training- including courses at the JAG school in Charlottesville.

I work a compressed schedule. 7:30-5:00, with every other Friday off. I telework two days a week. My group does not litigate. I work late a couple times a year during our busy season at the end of the fiscal year. I believe in my agency's mission, so the work is rewarding even if the pay is not!

This is pretty useless unless you share the name of the agency. Why did you bother posting?

Just was telling him the culture of my agency. Don't hate.
We don't post jobs on USA jobs or the agency website anyways.
We hire from within or word of mouth.