Language Immersion Schools and Reading Levels

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are cognitive differences between monolinguals and bilinguals, but I think it's a stretch to regard one or the other as "superior" cognitively (although bilinguals have the language advantage, obviously).

Bilinguals are better at tasks requiring extended use of executive function; switching tasks, focusing attention, inhibiting external stimulus.

Monolinguals are quicker at word recall. But at a slightly greater risk of dementia.

If this was true, bilinguals the world over would be cognitively superior, which they clearly aren't. More students in other countries speak more than one other language, most children in African countries for example speak English as well as other language. There are so many issues involved, if you can learn two languages early great; however, it is more important to be proficient in reading, writing, speaking, and listening in the dominant language of the country you reside in. As others have also stated, it is important to learn the language outside the classroom. If learning a non-dominant language in the classroom was merely sufficient then ELL students would not be struggling at DCPS or nationwide, especially Latino students.

Spoken like a true monolingual. Superior might be too strong of a word but there is clearly a cognitive difference. Bilingualism is a tough concept to grasp in a monolingual society.

This. I'm a monolingual, but I "get it". This is because I lived in Europe for a long time where bilingualism was the norm. I was clearly at a deficit. Here in the States you face a lot of ignorant blowback from monolinguals who feel threatened by the idea that bilinguals have greater cognitive ability (as provided in research, ie. greater executive functioning, etc...). So, sometimes you have to just ignore them. The research speaks for itself.

While there maybe a difference, being bilingual only has an advantage within a context. I'm bilingual and the only thing I actually use my native language for is watching tv shows and movies and occasionally visiting my native country and talking to my parents. That's it.

My kid attends an immersion charter and we send our kid there bc we think knowing the target language will be useful not bc we care about a "bilingual advantage". We are both bilingual but neither know the target language. The only common language in our house is English.

You're fairly ignorant about your own bilingualism. Probably because you take it for granted. Many do. It's no big deal to them. Please do yourself and your child a favor. Do some reasing on bilingualism and the cognitive benefits. It's a bigger deal than you think.

So are you bilingual? I am bilingual and yeah, I don't find it a big deal nor do I think being bilingual had a big affect on my life.

Not the pp that you are responding to, but I became bilingual in my late teens and was extremely aware of the way in which it affected me. It made me have a much deeper understanding of my native language and language in general. It also helped me to understand how many different ways concepts can be viewed, as the there are not direct translations of many words and thus you have to rely on conceptualism instead of falling back on known vocabulary. Although I am now pretty rusty in my second language, I believe that bilingualism helps in many ways other than communication in that language.

Interesting. English is my second language so I did not have the same experience as yours - I was born in another country, raised in both, my family lives and worked in my native country so I've always been bicultural as well as bilingual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are cognitive differences between monolinguals and bilinguals, but I think it's a stretch to regard one or the other as "superior" cognitively (although bilinguals have the language advantage, obviously).

Bilinguals are better at tasks requiring extended use of executive function; switching tasks, focusing attention, inhibiting external stimulus.

Monolinguals are quicker at word recall. But at a slightly greater risk of dementia.

If this was true, bilinguals the world over would be cognitively superior, which they clearly aren't. More students in other countries speak more than one other language, most children in African countries for example speak English as well as other language. There are so many issues involved, if you can learn two languages early great; however, it is more important to be proficient in reading, writing, speaking, and listening in the dominant language of the country you reside in. As others have also stated, it is important to learn the language outside the classroom. If learning a non-dominant language in the classroom was merely sufficient then ELL students would not be struggling at DCPS or nationwide, especially Latino students.

Spoken like a true monolingual. Superior might be too strong of a word but there is clearly a cognitive difference. Bilingualism is a tough concept to grasp in a monolingual society.

This. I'm a monolingual, but I "get it". This is because I lived in Europe for a long time where bilingualism was the norm. I was clearly at a deficit. Here in the States you face a lot of ignorant blowback from monolinguals who feel threatened by the idea that bilinguals have greater cognitive ability (as provided in research, ie. greater executive functioning, etc...). So, sometimes you have to just ignore them. The research speaks for itself.

While there maybe a difference, being bilingual only has an advantage within a context. I'm bilingual and the only thing I actually use my native language for is watching tv shows and movies and occasionally visiting my native country and talking to my parents. That's it.

My kid attends an immersion charter and we send our kid there bc we think knowing the target language will be useful not bc we care about a "bilingual advantage". We are both bilingual but neither know the target language. The only common language in our house is English.

You're fairly ignorant about your own bilingualism. Probably because you take it for granted. Many do. It's no big deal to them. Please do yourself and your child a favor. Do some reasing on bilingualism and the cognitive benefits. It's a bigger deal than you think.

So are you bilingual? I am bilingual and yeah, I don't find it a big deal nor do I think being bilingual had a big affect on my life.

That's because you're ignorant and living your life in a vacuum. Stop being so self-important and actually do some research. One of the biggest barriers to bilingualism is egocentricm.

Apparently not, since I am bilingual.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child started immersion in preschool 3, with two years of full immersion. Now in first grade, she tests at T (fifth grade) for English, and M (early 2nd grade) for Spanish. I don't think that immersion has had any affect on her reading level in English at all, but I am very happy that she is starting to be Spanish-literate as well.

PP, I'm curious, how is her dual language school doing at meeting her needs? Is she grouped with other 1st graders at her reading level (if there are any at T level)? Or is she in a group with older kids? Do you worry about whether she's being challenged?

Just for the record, a T reading level is equivalent to the end of 3rd grade, not 5th (according to
https://www.readinga-z.com/learninga-z-levels/level-correlation-chart/)

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child started immersion in preschool 3, with two years of full immersion. Now in first grade, she tests at T (fifth grade) for English, and M (early 2nd grade) for Spanish. I don't think that immersion has had any affect on her reading level in English at all, but I am very happy that she is starting to be Spanish-literate as well.

PP, I'm curious, how is her dual language school doing at meeting her needs? Is she grouped with other 1st graders at her reading level (if there are any at T level)? Or is she in a group with older kids? Do you worry about whether she's being challenged?

Just for the record, a T reading level is equivalent to the end of 3rd grade, not 5th (according to
https://www.readinga-z.com/learninga-z-levels/level-correlation-chart/)

??? According to the chart, T is 5th grade.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child started immersion in preschool 3, with two years of full immersion. Now in first grade, she tests at T (fifth grade) for English, and M (early 2nd grade) for Spanish. I don't think that immersion has had any affect on her reading level in English at all, but I am very happy that she is starting to be Spanish-literate as well.

PP, I'm curious, how is her dual language school doing at meeting her needs? Is she grouped with other 1st graders at her reading level (if there are any at T level)? Or is she in a group with older kids? Do you worry about whether she's being challenged?

Just for the record, a T reading level is equivalent to the end of 3rd grade, not 5th (according to
https://www.readinga-z.com/learninga-z-levels/level-correlation-chart/)

??? According to the chart, T is 5th grade.

Whatever. I'm the original pp above, and I don't care one single bit. The point is, the kid is doing fine in English despite attending a bilingual school.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child started immersion in preschool 3, with two years of full immersion. Now in first grade, she tests at T (fifth grade) for English, and M (early 2nd grade) for Spanish. I don't think that immersion has had any affect on her reading level in English at all, but I am very happy that she is starting to be Spanish-literate as well.

PP, I'm curious, how is her dual language school doing at meeting her needs? Is she grouped with other 1st graders at her reading level (if there are any at T level)? Or is she in a group with older kids? Do you worry about whether she's being challenged?

Just for the record, a T reading level is equivalent to the end of 3rd grade, not 5th (according to
https://www.readinga-z.com/learninga-z-levels/level-correlation-chart/)

??? According to the chart, T is 5th grade.

Whatever. I'm the original pp above, and I don't care one single bit. The point is, the kid is doing fine in English despite attending a bilingual school.

Original PP again, just for curiosity's sake, I looked back at the chart and figured out the issue. She was tested using Fountas and Pinnell, not Reading A-Z, which has a different scoring system. It is still irrelevant though. I only looked it up and typed it in the first instance as a reference. I know she is doing fine, and that is all that matters.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:My child started immersion in preschool 3, with two years of full immersion. Now in first grade, she tests at T (fifth grade) for English, and M (early 2nd grade) for Spanish. I don't think that immersion has had any affect on her reading level in English at all, but I am very happy that she is starting to be Spanish-literate as well.

I'm just curious--what were her tested reading levels in English and Spanish at the end of K?

Kindergarten was full immersion, so they did not do anything in English, and I don't believe they tested in Spanish for anything other than sight words, which she always knew before the test. She could read Biscuit type books (F) at the beginning of the year and Frog and Toad type (K) near the end. Over the summer, she really spiked. Her English comprehension has always been amazing, so she just needed to get past a fluency hurdle when reading more complicated vocabulary. As for Spanish, she was a fluent reader by the end of Kindergarten, but comprehension remained (and remains). They brought in first grade Spanish books for her, which were at her level. I'm thinking there will always be slow and steady Spanish progress, as there is no fluency hurdle (Spanish is much easier to read) and she doesn't get anywhere near as much exposure to Spanish vocabulary as to English.

Thanks, this is helpful.

-OP

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Providing an opinion based upon thin air makes you an asshole. Try doing some basic reading on bilingualism. I agree it's no big deal for you. You're clearly run of the mill with below average intelligence. Thank goodness you're not exemplary of the bilingual community. Just to play devil's advocate, perhaps you would have been more of a simpleton if you were only monolingual. Maybe your bilingualism did something for you. Doubtful, but maybe.

I went to an Ivy and a top 10 law school. If it makes you feel better that anyone who does not acknowledge the superiority of bilingualism even when they are bilingual must be stupid then you for whatever reason have a lot invested in this. Like I said being bilingual has not been a big deal and I rarely if ever use my other language.

I posted in the thread previously that my kid attending an immersion school did not affect his reading in English. My bilingualism did not have any affect in me doing well in school in English. I would have done just as well if I was monolingual, IMO.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:My DS attends a DCPS language immersion school. He’s in K, and he tested at a first-grade reading level, in both English and Spanish. I have often heard that there is a delay in reading/writing skills for kids in immersion programs. It makes me think that DS might be further ahead in reading if he attended an English-only school; especially because his PK year was completely in Spanish. I’m curious to hear from others who have children in language immersion schools (DCPS or charters). If your kids had above-grade level reading skills in K, did they stay ahead in later grades (4th and above)? Did you do anything at home to help them improve their reading, especially in English?

My son is not in an immersion program but DH and I have spoken to him only in our respective languages since birth. We've also read and taught letters in our respective languages. He's not quite 4.5 and already reads in my language fairly well, reads OK in English and is beginning to read in DH's language. I think the reading/writing delay for bilingual kids is bollocks, as evidenced by my highly scientific sample size of one.

What I've learned from my son's experience is that reading and writing skills seem to be both transferable AND unconnected to any specific language. We've never spoken, taught or read any English at home. Yet he began to read in English (they teach English ABC and reading in his preschool) pretty much independently, and that tells me that he figured out that there are such things as letters, and these letters get together to form words, and this applies in any language.

Basically, I wouldn't worry about any built-in delays with bilingualism or immersion.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are cognitive differences between monolinguals and bilinguals, but I think it's a stretch to regard one or the other as "superior" cognitively (although bilinguals have the language advantage, obviously).

Bilinguals are better at tasks requiring extended use of executive function; switching tasks, focusing attention, inhibiting external stimulus.

Monolinguals are quicker at word recall. But at a slightly greater risk of dementia.

If this was true, bilinguals the world over would be cognitively superior, which they clearly aren't. More students in other countries speak more than one other language, most children in African countries for example speak English as well as other language. There are so many issues involved, if you can learn two languages early great; however, it is more important to be proficient in reading, writing, speaking, and listening in the dominant language of the country you reside in. As others have also stated, it is important to learn the language outside the classroom. If learning a non-dominant language in the classroom was merely sufficient then ELL students would not be struggling at DCPS or nationwide, especially Latino students.

Soooo, what I'm getting here is that being bilingual does not result in cognitive advantages because "look at all those dumb ass African and Latino kids". Is that about right?

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are cognitive differences between monolinguals and bilinguals, but I think it's a stretch to regard one or the other as "superior" cognitively (although bilinguals have the language advantage, obviously).

Bilinguals are better at tasks requiring extended use of executive function; switching tasks, focusing attention, inhibiting external stimulus.

Monolinguals are quicker at word recall. But at a slightly greater risk of dementia.

If this was true, bilinguals the world over would be cognitively superior, which they clearly aren't. More students in other countries speak more than one other language, most children in African countries for example speak English as well as other language. There are so many issues involved, if you can learn two languages early great; however, it is more important to be proficient in reading, writing, speaking, and listening in the dominant language of the country you reside in. As others have also stated, it is important to learn the language outside the classroom. If learning a non-dominant language in the classroom was merely sufficient then ELL students would not be struggling at DCPS or nationwide, especially Latino students.

Soooo, what I'm getting here is that being bilingual does not result in cognitive advantages because "look at all those dumb ass African and Latino kids". Is that about right?

Yes, I caught that as well. Unintended racism... or perhaps it was intentional. Hmmm....

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are cognitive differences between monolinguals and bilinguals, but I think it's a stretch to regard one or the other as "superior" cognitively (although bilinguals have the language advantage, obviously).

Bilinguals are better at tasks requiring extended use of executive function; switching tasks, focusing attention, inhibiting external stimulus.

Monolinguals are quicker at word recall. But at a slightly greater risk of dementia.

If this was true, bilinguals the world over would be cognitively superior, which they clearly aren't. More students in other countries speak more than one other language, most children in African countries for example speak English as well as other language. There are so many issues involved, if you can learn two languages early great; however, it is more important to be proficient in reading, writing, speaking, and listening in the dominant language of the country you reside in. As others have also stated, it is important to learn the language outside the classroom. If learning a non-dominant language in the classroom was merely sufficient then ELL students would not be struggling at DCPS or nationwide, especially Latino students.

Soooo, what I'm getting here is that being bilingual does not result in cognitive advantages because "look at all those dumb ass African and Latino kids". Is that about right?

Yes, I caught that as well. Unintended racism... or perhaps it was intentional. Hmmm....

I also read it as a combination of racism and ignorance about educational hindrances.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are cognitive differences between monolinguals and bilinguals, but I think it's a stretch to regard one or the other as "superior" cognitively (although bilinguals have the language advantage, obviously).

Bilinguals are better at tasks requiring extended use of executive function; switching tasks, focusing attention, inhibiting external stimulus.

Monolinguals are quicker at word recall. But at a slightly greater risk of dementia.

If this was true, bilinguals the world over would be cognitively superior, which they clearly aren't. More students in other countries speak more than one other language, most children in African countries for example speak English as well as other language. There are so many issues involved, if you can learn two languages early great; however, it is more important to be proficient in reading, writing, speaking, and listening in the dominant language of the country you reside in. As others have also stated, it is important to learn the language outside the classroom. If learning a non-dominant language in the classroom was merely sufficient then ELL students would not be struggling at DCPS or nationwide, especially Latino students.

Soooo, what I'm getting here is that being bilingual does not result in cognitive advantages because "look at all those dumb ass African and Latino kids". Is that about right?

This. DH taught English in an African country in the Peace Corp. The kids who were taught English were the elite who went on to be high ranking government functionaries. Not everyone is taught English. In fact, in the country he taught in most kids only went to school up to 6th grade.

[Anonymous]

Less than half of students at DCPS are at grade level in English, so introducing another language in early elementary for the cognitive benefits of bilingualism is not going to happen anytime soon.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:There are cognitive differences between monolinguals and bilinguals, but I think it's a stretch to regard one or the other as "superior" cognitively (although bilinguals have the language advantage, obviously).

Bilinguals are better at tasks requiring extended use of executive function; switching tasks, focusing attention, inhibiting external stimulus.

Monolinguals are quicker at word recall. But at a slightly greater risk of dementia.

If this was true, bilinguals the world over would be cognitively superior, which they clearly aren't. More students in other countries speak more than one other language, most children in African countries for example speak English as well as other language. There are so many issues involved, if you can learn two languages early great; however, it is more important to be proficient in reading, writing, speaking, and listening in the dominant language of the country you reside in. As others have also stated, it is important to learn the language outside the classroom. If learning a non-dominant language in the classroom was merely sufficient then ELL students would not be struggling at DCPS or nationwide, especially Latino students.

Soooo, what I'm getting here is that being bilingual does not result in cognitive advantages because "look at all those dumb ass African and Latino kids". Is that about right?

This. DH taught English in an African country in the Peace Corp. The kids who were taught English were the elite who went on to be high ranking government functionaries. Not everyone is taught English. In fact, in the country he taught in most kids only went to school up to 6th grade.

They didn't become high-ranking government functionaries on account of cognitive advantages bestowed by bilingualism. They went on to their jobs because they were a) children of high-ranking government functionaries already, and b) to a lesser degree, were taught a high-status language. Do you think children from poor families who happen to speak two low-status African languages wold fare as well?