Help: dog snapped at DS' face

[Anonymous]

It doesn't matter if it was human error, in fact, it sounds like it was human error. But people and kids especially are going to make mistakes and there will be human error, no matter how much you train your kids.

The issue is that when there IS human error, how the dog responds to it. And going for the face is a deal-breaker.

My DB and SIL had a rescue and they really worked hard to deal with it, but finally had to give her up. IMO they waited far too long--I was so freaked out--I am so grateful my little niece still has her face.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:
OP,

It depends on so many factors!

1. Safest solution: get rid of the dog.

2. Most difficult solution: research dog behavior and psychology, modify dog training and educate other members of the household to handle dog differently. PP had great advice about getting the dog used to poking, handling, petting, interference in general. It will take many more months of vigilance, and you need to be constantly aware of pack instinct. The dog must NEVER think it's superior to your kids or anyone else. There are may practical rules you can in place to make the dog understand everyone is above him and untouchable.
http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/articles/grouchydog.htm
The whole site is full of valuable info.

3. Most dangerous solution: do nothing.

I agree that option 2 can be an option in certain circumstances. We did something similar when my rescue dog snapped at my child, with success, but there were a lot of differences between our situation and OP's.

1) My youngest was 10 and much more able to follow directions about dog safety than a 7 year old.

2) My dog is much smaller than a rottie or a lab so far less likely to do life threatening damage to a child. One thing we did was made rules that the dog was never on the furniture, and kid was never on the floor in the same room as the dog, unless dog was tethered or crated. Dog was too small to reach kid's face in those circumstances. A rottie can easily jump and reach a 7 year's old face/neck or knock a kid down in play so this strategy wouldn't work.

3) For several months, dog was either crated or tethered to me whenever he was in the same room as my kid. He certainly wasn't cuddling on the couch with the child a few hours after the incident as OP describes, which makes me think that OP would not be successful at keeping the separate.

4) We took dog to the vet and found a medical problem (Urinary tract infection) that was both treatable and painful. Vet felt that it was likely that once the pain was treated the dog would go back to his previous behavior.

5) While my dog did snap he actually backed up a fair amount before snapping, not right in the face, so it was a pretty clear warning and not attempted bite. In the situation, DS came in the room and found dog on the bed, where he wasn't supposed to be. He ordered dog down, and dog growled. He then reached for dog's collar and dog backed away to the far corner of the bed and then snapped. DS then came and got me.

[Anonymous]

This is why people with young kids shouldn't get dogs. Kids aren't always gentle with dogs and it can cause a dog to snap or bite.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One more thing OP - I am the PP who has been raising and training German Shepherd Dogs for 20 years. Obviously, I LOVE the breed. Both of the ones we have now are rescues. I got a phone call from an out of state friend about a month ago. They were looking to adopt a dog and came across a German Shepherd Dog in a local shelter. The dog was estimated to have been between 2 and 3 years old. They have a 3 year old little girl and a 7 year old boy. They spent some time playing with the dog at the shelter and fell in love with him. She called me before they adopted asking my advise. I told her that adopting an adult German Shepherd from a shelter (as opposed to a foster) when you have young children in the house was a bad idea. They adopted anyway.

About a week ago I found out (through another friend) that the dog and the kids were in the back yard playing. The dog attacked their 3 year year for no apparent reason. The little girl is going to be o.k., but needed 12 stitches in her face. It could have been much, much worse.

When you adopt from a shelter, you have no idea what you are getting. If you are in an adult only household or a home with older kids, it's usually fine. Adopting a dog that has been with foster family usually works out o.k. because hopefully the family has had time to learn the dogs temperament. Adopting an adult dog from a shelter is always risky. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't do it. However, when you do, you accept that you may find out that the dog has behavior issues that you aren't prepared to handle, especially with young children in the home. The moment you see aggression, the dog goes.

Since you really seem to know a lot about dogs, I have a question for you. Our beagle is 14 years old, and we've had her since she was a puppy. She's always been as gentle as can be---not so much as a growl. She's been around kids her entire life and has never snapped at them for any reason. Now that she's older, if wakened from a deep sleep by being touched, she'll sometimes snap at my husband or me. Our grandchildren are older and know to never touch her when she's asleep, and we only wake her (if needed) by moving her bed a little, which doesn't seem to startle her. Is this typical for older dogs? Your thoughts? TIA.

Your beagle may be in pain or have dementia. The behavior you are seeing can be indicative of either. I would take her to the vet and have her checked out. You have a geriatric dog. That's a totally different scenario. Dogs don't do a very good job of communicating pain to us. Your vet will be able to tell.

Thanks for responding. I agree about both being likely. She does get "premium" (expensive but we don't mind! ) vet care that includes yearly senior wellness checks (definitely arthritis along her spine), more frequent regular checkups, and takes Dasuquin, Soloxine, and sometimes Rimadyl, plus a comfy bed from Orvis. If you have any other recommendations, please feel free to say. Thanks again!

If you think her pain isn't being controlled, Tramadol is another drug that works really well for some dogs. Might be worth asking the vet about it. We give it to my Shepherds for Pano (common in larger breeds). Older dogs need a quiet space all to themselves to escape to. Sounds like you are doing everything right

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One more thing OP - I am the PP who has been raising and training German Shepherd Dogs for 20 years. Obviously, I LOVE the breed. Both of the ones we have now are rescues. I got a phone call from an out of state friend about a month ago. They were looking to adopt a dog and came across a German Shepherd Dog in a local shelter. The dog was estimated to have been between 2 and 3 years old. They have a 3 year old little girl and a 7 year old boy. They spent some time playing with the dog at the shelter and fell in love with him. She called me before they adopted asking my advise. I told her that adopting an adult German Shepherd from a shelter (as opposed to a foster) when you have young children in the house was a bad idea. They adopted anyway.

About a week ago I found out (through another friend) that the dog and the kids were in the back yard playing. The dog attacked their 3 year year for no apparent reason. The little girl is going to be o.k., but needed 12 stitches in her face. It could have been much, much worse.

When you adopt from a shelter, you have no idea what you are getting. If you are in an adult only household or a home with older kids, it's usually fine. Adopting a dog that has been with foster family usually works out o.k. because hopefully the family has had time to learn the dogs temperament. Adopting an adult dog from a shelter is always risky. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't do it. However, when you do, you accept that you may find out that the dog has behavior issues that you aren't prepared to handle, especially with young children in the home. The moment you see aggression, the dog goes.

Since you really seem to know a lot about dogs, I have a question for you. Our beagle is 14 years old, and we've had her since she was a puppy. She's always been as gentle as can be---not so much as a growl. She's been around kids her entire life and has never snapped at them for any reason. Now that she's older, if wakened from a deep sleep by being touched, she'll sometimes snap at my husband or me. Our grandchildren are older and know to never touch her when she's asleep, and we only wake her (if needed) by moving her bed a little, which doesn't seem to startle her. Is this typical for older dogs? Your thoughts? TIA.

Your beagle may be in pain or have dementia. The behavior you are seeing can be indicative of either. I would take her to the vet and have her checked out. You have a geriatric dog. That's a totally different scenario. Dogs don't do a very good job of communicating pain to us. Your vet will be able to tell.

Thanks for responding. I agree about both being likely. She does get "premium" (expensive but we don't mind! ) vet care that includes yearly senior wellness checks (definitely arthritis along her spine), more frequent regular checkups, and takes Dasuquin, Soloxine, and sometimes Rimadyl, plus a comfy bed from Orvis. If you have any other recommendations, please feel free to say. Thanks again!

If you think her pain isn't being controlled, Tramadol is another drug that works really well for some dogs. Might be worth asking the vet about it. We give it to my Shepherds for Pano (common in larger breeds). Older dogs need a quiet space all to themselves to escape to. Sounds like you are doing everything right

Thank you for the Tramadol reminder! We were giving it on an as needed basis, and then the prescription ran out. I'll refill ASAP and try giving it regularly. Our vet has known our beagle since she was 8 weeks old, so that's reassuring, too. We know her life is probably approaching the end within the next two years, but she's actually still quite active. Although she'll rest afterwards for a long time, she can still take off after a rabbit if one ventures into our yard! Thanks again so much!

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Farm owner here -- send the dog back. You have to be practical about these things. But you also need to teach your kid to back off the dog's space.. they don't like kids to get up in their face, it is threatening, so their is blame on both sides here.

The appropriate response is to walk away, not snap, and that would not be something I'd look over in a new dog. IF I were you I would also learn my dog breeds and be able to recognize a Rottie vs. a lab when I see one before I adopt again.

OP here. I hear what you're saying. In my defense, I trusted the rescue when it said the dog was a lab/shepherd mix. She does look labby-ish, but has the rottie/Doberman coloring. Of course, given that rottweiliers and Dobermans were nowhere near my frame of reference it never occurred to me.

[Anonymous]

I just went through this this past fall and we had to return the dog.

Our child who is 9 and very gentle was sitting w my husband and the dog went up on our child like she was going to kiss her...snarled and bit her on the mouth. No warning no nothing. Not a bad bite, but it was enough to make us contact the rescue group right away and give her back. She had been growling at other kids in the neighborhood before that and we were working with a private trainer on her fear issues. She was very sweet in a lot of ways but just not a dog for a family with kids.

You will get through this if you have to return her. I do feel badly that this happened but it was the right thing to do. I want to get another dog as does our entire family I am just really scared something will happen again.

[Anonymous]

You absolutely have to get rid of the dog. You also have to be sure it won't be around children elsewhere. If you can't, it needs to be put to sleep.

[Anonymous]

We had to return our sweet Beagle rescue after he scratched our kids in the face (the first child on the lip so bad we thought he might need stitches and the next time it was near our other child's eye) during two non-provoked incidences. In hind site both incidences happened in the kitchen and while my back was turned both times so I didn't see it happen I do wonder if their was some food aggression being triggered in the dog.

At any rate, we've since brought home 2 dogs that we've raised since they were young pup (one from a breeder, the other a rescue). Lots of kids in and out of our house including our own and never once a problem.

[Anonymous]

^I should mention that I thought that the first scratch was a fluke and our Beagle had his nails trimmed that day so I thought that maybe their was a jagged part on his nail...

2nd time there was no denying that their was a problem.

[Anonymous]

Super irresponsible to have a dog (especially a rescue!) in the home with young kids. I'd take the thing out back and put it down myself if it snapped at one of my kids.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Super irresponsible to have a dog (especially a rescue!) in the home with young kids. I'd take the thing out back and put it down myself if it snapped at one of my kids.

Her kids are 7 and 10, not that young. Old enough to know how to treat a dog, if they've been taught. They only had the dog for a month or two.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:One more thing OP - I am the PP who has been raising and training German Shepherd Dogs for 20 years. Obviously, I LOVE the breed. Both of the ones we have now are rescues. I got a phone call from an out of state friend about a month ago. They were looking to adopt a dog and came across a German Shepherd Dog in a local shelter. The dog was estimated to have been between 2 and 3 years old. They have a 3 year old little girl and a 7 year old boy. They spent some time playing with the dog at the shelter and fell in love with him. She called me before they adopted asking my advise. I told her that adopting an adult German Shepherd from a shelter (as opposed to a foster) when you have young children in the house was a bad idea. They adopted anyway.

About a week ago I found out (through another friend) that the dog and the kids were in the back yard playing. The dog attacked their 3 year year for no apparent reason. The little girl is going to be o.k., but needed 12 stitches in her face. It could have been much, much worse.

When you adopt from a shelter, you have no idea what you are getting. If you are in an adult only household or a home with older kids, it's usually fine. Adopting a dog that has been with foster family usually works out o.k. because hopefully the family has had time to learn the dogs temperament. Adopting an adult dog from a shelter is always risky. I'm not suggesting that you shouldn't do it. However, when you do, you accept that you may find out that the dog has behavior issues that you aren't prepared to handle, especially with young children in the home. The moment you see aggression, the dog goes.

http://www.dogsbite.org/pdf/dog-attack-deaths-maimings-merritt-clifton-2013.pdf see page 10 of this document on bite patterns in german shepherds-it's a good explanation for herding breeds. That face bite was not breed typical but it was the type of bite [fleeting with no latch on] done by a herding breed. When you see aggression and the dog goes where does the dog go? Recycled to a shelter or rescue for another owner? An adults only home where it could have contact with guests of all ages or be a danger to others both animal and human on walks? The shelter/rescue culture as well as the humane society have no regard for public safety relative to inborn behaviorial traits. Erroneously there are even false analogies to racial profiling.

I'm not even going to respond to that nonsense expect to say that you do not keep dogs that bite for any reason in homes with children. Period. Breed specific behavior (and you are talking to someone who has been raising and training Shepherds for twenty years) is never justification for aggression or biting. We don't even tolerate play biting or mouthing in GSD puppies. Is it normal? Of course. It's also normal for them to try to herd family members, another risky behavior when their are young children in the house. It doesn't mean they can't be trained to understand that they are not in charge. I assure you my GSDs would LOVE to attack my neighbor's cat. It would be completely "normal". However, that cat can walk right by them and they won't touch him. It's simply training.

I was not justifying breed specific behavior as a pass on biting. Nor would I have a dog that snapped or bit. I would not have a dog that bit or showed aggression in my household children or no children. Except for breed specific rescues most operations seem rather sketch on breeds. 3-4 year old 55 lb s marketed as a lab/chessie mix where they say not good at dog parks yet good with other dogs: http://www.citydogsrescuedc.org/available-dogs.html#action_0=pet&animalID_0=7510776&petIndex_0=58 Another "lab" which looks nothing like the one sitting next to me http://www.citydogsrescuedc.org/available-dogs.html#action_0=pet&animalID_0=8291475&petIndex_0=62 but does resemble a am staff owned by a family I know.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Super irresponsible to have a dog (especially a rescue!) in the home with young kids. I'd take the thing out back and put it down myself if it snapped at one of my kids.

Her kids are 7 and 10, not that young. Old enough to know how to treat a dog, if they've been taught. They only had the dog for a month or two.

Kids make mistakes. I wouldn't have a dog in the house (for many, many reasons) with kids under 12. I have a hard time respecting people who put their dogs before people.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:Super irresponsible to have a dog (especially a rescue!) in the home with young kids. I'd take the thing out back and put it down myself if it snapped at one of my kids.

Her kids are 7 and 10, not that young. Old enough to know how to treat a dog, if they've been taught. They only had the dog for a month or two.

Kids make mistakes. I wouldn't have a dog in the house (for many, many reasons) with kids under 12. I have a hard time respecting people who put their dogs before people.

Sure they do. My mother tells me I used to teeth on our golden retriever's tail. I was horrified that she let me!

No dogs for a family with children under 12? How will children learn how to behave around dogs if there's no dog at home?