Common Core question for proponents

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Go read Actions 4 and 5. Testing is a strong part of this program--and has been from its inception. It is not just "standards" in a vacuum.

Action 4 refers to best practices in Britain (which looks at leadership quality), Finland (which uses school-based special education teachers for students who need extra help), Singapore (which uses a national exam to identify upper elementary students who need extra help in math, and who then receive extra instruction), and other (unspecified) countries that "have established strong norms and mechanisms to support students" and who "balance accountability with greater school autonomy".

Action 5 talks about measures the US could use for international comparisons, including NAEP, PISA, and TIMSS.

So yes, the organizations involved in the development of the Common Core standards also think that there is a role for testing, if the US is to ensure that US students receive a world-class education. Was that your contention? If so, I don't find it particularly shocking. I would be more shocked if they thought that there was no role for testing. What school system in the world does not use testing?

[Anonymous]

It is so heartening to see the American people finally pushing back against this . . . calling out a process that affects them greatly and in which they had little input (regardless of what the pro CC people say). Many Americans were unaware of the whole CC process and are only now understanding what it is (and they don't like all of it---especially the testing---which they have plenty of experience with in the schools).

Winston Churchill said, "You can count on the Americans to do the right thing . . . after they have exhausted all the other possibilities."

We are getting there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_implementation_by_state

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It is so heartening to see the American people finally pushing back against this . . . calling out a process that affects them greatly and in which they had little input (regardless of what the pro CC people say). Many Americans were unaware of the whole CC process and are only now understanding what it is (and they don't like all of it---especially the testing---which they have plenty of experience with in the schools).

Winston Churchill said, "You can count on the Americans to do the right thing . . . after they have exhausted all the other possibilities."

We are getting there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_implementation_by_state

If this is true, then what it mainly displays is the ignorance of the American people, which I don't find particularly heartening -- given that the testing is required by the No Child Left Behind Act, a law passed by Congress in 2001; the testing would still be required even if the Common Core standards disappeared tomorrow; and the testing is still required in states that never adopted the Common Core standards,

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

It is so heartening to see the American people finally pushing back against this . . . calling out a process that affects them greatly and in which they had little input (regardless of what the pro CC people say). Many Americans were unaware of the whole CC process and are only now understanding what it is (and they don't like all of it---especially the testing---which they have plenty of experience with in the schools).

Winston Churchill said, "You can count on the Americans to do the right thing . . . after they have exhausted all the other possibilities."

We are getting there.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_Core_implementation_by_state

I don't think the public should be involved in developing standards or how to implement them. It's not their place, and quite frankly, most people are too dumb. As PP stated, there have always been standardized testing even before CC. In MD they have two tests - PARCC and MAP tests. They should just do away with the MAP testing.

Why are people so wrapped up in the process of how CC standards were developed? If you don't agree with them, fine. But there are plenty of educators and parents that think they are good, and some think they are better than what some of the states had before. For people like you, who don't like the process, I think the issue is really that you don't like the standards. Not sure why. Maybe it's what Arne Duncan said - “white suburban moms who — all of a sudden — their child isn’t as brilliant as they thought they were, and their school isn’t quite as good as they thought they were.”

[Anonymous]

I don't think the public should be involved in developing standards or how to implement them. It's not their place, and quite frankly, most people are too dumb. As PP stated, there have always been standardized testing even before CC. In MD they have two tests - PARCC and MAP tests. They should just do away with the MAP testing.

Welcome, Dr. Gruber!

[Anonymous]

I don't think the public should be involved in developing standards or how to implement them. It's not their place, and quite frankly, most people are too dumb. As PP stated, there have always been standardized testing even before CC. In MD they have two tests - PARCC and MAP tests. They should just do away with the MAP testing.

What makes the United States truly different from other countries? Democracy. The public elects the decision makers. The decision makers should listen to the public.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I don't think the public should be involved in developing standards or how to implement them. It's not their place, and quite frankly, most people are too dumb. As PP stated, there have always been standardized testing even before CC. In MD they have two tests - PARCC and MAP tests. They should just do away with the MAP testing.

Welcome, Dr. Gruber!

Who's Dr. Gruber, and why would Dr. Gruber be posting on DCUM?

[Anonymous]

Why are people so wrapped up in the process of how CC standards were developed? If you don't agree with them, fine. But there are plenty of educators and parents that think they are good, and some think they are better than what some of the states had before. For people like you, who don't like the process, I think the issue is really that you don't like the standards. Not sure why. Maybe it's what Arne Duncan said - “white suburban moms who — all of a sudden — their child isn’t as brilliant as they thought they were, and their school isn’t quite as good as they thought they were.”

When the motive of the developers of the standards is mostly profit, you cannot help but be concerned. Say what you will, Pearson was the major player in the development of the standards.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

I don't think the public should be involved in developing standards or how to implement them. It's not their place, and quite frankly, most people are too dumb. As PP stated, there have always been standardized testing even before CC. In MD they have two tests - PARCC and MAP tests. They should just do away with the MAP testing.

What makes the United States truly different from other countries? Democracy. The public elects the decision makers. The decision makers should listen to the public.

Actually, as my sixth-grader reminded me just last week after studying ancient Greece, if the public elects the decision-makers, it's not a democracy. The US is a republic.

And I assure you that the United States is not the only country in which the public elects the decision-makers.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Why are people so wrapped up in the process of how CC standards were developed? If you don't agree with them, fine. But there are plenty of educators and parents that think they are good, and some think they are better than what some of the states had before. For people like you, who don't like the process, I think the issue is really that you don't like the standards. Not sure why. Maybe it's what Arne Duncan said - “white suburban moms who — all of a sudden — their child isn’t as brilliant as they thought they were, and their school isn’t quite as good as they thought they were.”

When the motive of the developers of the standards is mostly profit, you cannot help but be concerned. Say what you will, Pearson was the major player in the development of the standards.

No, the National Governors Association Center for Best Practices and the Council of Chief State School Officers were the major players.

Or maybe it was the Freemasons? Or the Council on Foreign Relations? It's so hard for me to keep straight who's truly behind what.

[Anonymous]

Point. However, I do not want a publishing company determining the standards for my kids. I don't understand why you do.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Point. However, I do not want a publishing company determining the standards for my kids. I don't understand why you do.

I don't want it. The good news is: it's not.

[Anonymous]

I can't decide if the poster who is so pro CC is working for the Department of Education or one of the publishers. It is clear that the person is not working in a school.

Anyway, I am almost 60 years old. I remember an Iowa test once every couple of years in grade school. I do not recall any standardized tests in middle school or high school. I did well on the SAT, went to college, got a master's degree and have had a long career (30+ years). I went to public schools the whole way through. I had good teachers (many of whom I still think about) and I was very well prepared for college. For the record, I was born into a lower middle class home.

I'm not saying that everyone I went to school with is living a miracle or anything, BUT I am not sure my generation suffered from not having standardized instruction. It seems like people started complaining about the whole public system starting in the mid 90's or so. It would be interesting to understand why that happened. Was the economy changing about then? Were there more poor students coming into the schools? Did instruction change and that caused a decline in learning? Is that when they changed from a vocational to a more academic focus in schools? Maybe it's when we lost a lot of manufacturing jobs and we believed that our future would be in the "smarter jobs"? I don't know. What I do know is that creating some standards and testing the heck out of them is probably not the whole answer (and probably not even half the answer).

There are school districts in this country that were doing fine before the whole standardization trend started to gain momentum. Of course there were schools that needed help too. The problem with the feds being involved in schools is that the brush gets painted too broadly and local schools that were doing well were made to suffer and pay for things they didn't need (and that didn't help). I believe this is why the Constitution left education to the states (and localities).

Now I believe that the federal government is overreaching. Not only are they overreaching, they are wasting a lot of money that could be put to use in ways that local governments know would help. If the idea is that "the locals are stupid and don't know how to educate", how in the heck are standards and tests going to make them smarter? The biggest influence is going to be the "stupid locals" on the kids, not some standards and tests. The "stupid locals" are a 24/7 thing for those kids. Of course, you might be underestimating the locals based on your own broad brush way of thinking.

Also, Pearson, McMillan, whoever . . . it doesn't matter. The point is that they have a profit motive that conflicts with a purely educational motive. Those places (and Pearson has stockholders) are going to do what is best for their bottom line and that is not necessarily what is best for students. That is happening all over unfortunately (our highway system seems to be the latest victim).

The good news is that the "stupid locals" are finally getting it and questioning these things. I don't think that's a bad thing. It's our messy democracy trying to work again. We might find a way out of this after all.

[Anonymous]

Great post: 9:36. Right on.

[Anonymous]

Maybe it's what Arne Duncan said - “white suburban moms who — all of a sudden — their child isn’t as brilliant as they thought they were, and their school isn’t quite as good as they thought they were.”

Even if they find out their kids "aren't as brilliant as they thought they were", they will still find out that their kids' schools are at the top. It won't matter because it's all relative (you can fail less and others can fail more or you can pass more and others can pass less).

And, geez, Arne Duncan is a white suburban dad.