Let's put this in perspective

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Muslima wrote:

Anonymous wrote:You can buy it back....Prior to the formation of Israel, the jews purchased much of the land on the costal plain; at the partition, jews were 52% of the population defined as Israel. They migrated to the land.

Upon Israeli independence, she was attacked on all sides. Many of the Palestinians fled the land as refugees to wait out the war, until the arab nations destroyed Israel. In fact, Israel won the war, and concurred territory. The only land that was "stolen" was that which was vacated at the start of the war.

False. By 1920 Jews owned only 2% of Palestine. By 1948 when Israel declared itself a state, the Jews had increased their land ownership; but IT WAS STILL LESS THAN 6%.

Robin Miller in "The Expulsion of the Palestinians 1947-1948, says, "Before 1948, Jews owned only 1.5 million of the 26 million dunams of land in Palestine . . . After the eviction of the Palestinians, Israel controlled 20 million dunams, an increase from 6% to 77% of the total. They simply stole an entire country."

This only deals with privately owned jewish land vs all other land. How much want owned by government (British) and turned over the UN then Israel? I can not find that number.

The booklet "Origin of the Palestine-Israel Conflict" by Jews for Justice in the Middle East states that "in 1948, at the moment that Israel declared itself a state, it legally owned a little more than 6% of the land of Palestine. Of the estimated 950,000 Arabs that lived in the territory that became Israel before the war,[28] over 80% fled or were expelled; some 156,000 remained.

I am talking about percentage of population, not land ownership. The only place I mentioned land was that the jews lived on jewish owned land.

[takoma]

The Israeli novelist, David Grossman, had an op-ed piece in yesterday's NY Times. It's at http://www.nytimes.com/2014/07/28/opinion/david-grossman-end-the-grindstone-of-israeli-palestinian-violence.html?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=c-column-top-span-region&region=c-column-top-span-region&WT.nav=c-column-top-span-region&_r=1.
Since you may be locked out if you are not a subscriber, I'll try to summarize briefly: Both sides have legitimate grievances against the other, but this state of constant warfare is destroying both. People on both sides have to take the risk of working for peace, and Israel, being the stronger, should take the lead.

Reading the escalating rhetoric here on DCUM makes it easy to understand how the spiral of violence works.

As to the subject of this thread, "putting it in perspective" amounts to creating an analogy that justifies one side. As Jeff showed, it's just as easy to create one for the other side. Analogies can be useful, but they can also distort.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IF you lived in CCMD and you thought that DC and CCDC "had no right to exist" and you kept lobbing rockets across Western Avenue, hitting our houses, destroying our schools etc one day we would get fed up with it and fight back. That's what is happening in Israel. Hamas does not want peace. They want to annihilate Israel.

I think in actuality Israel wants to annihilate Palestine and all of there people. It is quite apparent by their actions-had they just kept the land they initially stole/got from the UN-and peacefully co-existed with the arabs (perhaps even helping them to prosper as well) there would be peace at least in that small sliver of the middle east. Instead, feeling superior, they want to control and oppress, take over and monopolize, ans become segregated and separatists. They are greedy and self righteous, and hypocrites going against everything in their Talmud and religion.

In 1948, Israel expressed hope to live at peace with her neighbors. Her neighbors responded by attacking. Israel won, resulting in the bounty boundaries pre-1967.
Are you suggesting Israel retreat to the UN lines, or the 1967 lines?

Not pp, but Israel should have never been created. You don't go and put a new country, where people are already living. Palestinians were not the cause of the Holocaust, and I think there's a lot of misplaced expectations & responsibility placed on them. I don't support Israel. I don't support a Jewish state. I support a single, secular state where people can live cohesively, together, in a democratic setting (which Israel is not - despite it's false claims).

By that logic, America should not have been created.

Neither the US or Israel are willing to just disappear. The only option is therefore: peace.

Israel wants peace and a 2 state solution. Hamas does not want peace. Hamas is a terrorist organization demanding Israel's destruction.

We do not negotiate with terrorist leaders like Hamas' leaders; we use drone strikes to kill terrorists.

[Muslima]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IF you lived in CCMD and you thought that DC and CCDC "had no right to exist" and you kept lobbing rockets across Western Avenue, hitting our houses, destroying our schools etc one day we would get fed up with it and fight back. That's what is happening in Israel. Hamas does not want peace. They want to annihilate Israel.

I think in actuality Israel wants to annihilate Palestine and all of there people. It is quite apparent by their actions-had they just kept the land they initially stole/got from the UN-and peacefully co-existed with the arabs (perhaps even helping them to prosper as well) there would be peace at least in that small sliver of the middle east. Instead, feeling superior, they want to control and oppress, take over and monopolize, ans become segregated and separatists. They are greedy and self righteous, and hypocrites going against everything in their Talmud and religion.

In 1948, Israel expressed hope to live at peace with her neighbors. Her neighbors responded by attacking. Israel won, resulting in the bounty boundaries pre-1967.
Are you suggesting Israel retreat to the UN lines, or the 1967 lines?

Not pp, but Israel should have never been created. You don't go and put a new country, where people are already living. Palestinians were not the cause of the Holocaust, and I think there's a lot of misplaced expectations & responsibility placed on them. I don't support Israel. I don't support a Jewish state. I support a single, secular state where people can live cohesively, together, in a democratic setting (which Israel is not - despite it's false claims).

By that logic, America should not have been created.

Neither the US or Israel are willing to just disappear. The only option is therefore: peace.

Israel wants peace and a 2 state solution. Hamas does not want peace. Hamas is a terrorist organization demanding Israel's destruction.

We do not negotiate with terrorist leaders like Hamas' leaders; we use drone strikes to kill terrorists.

Wrong. I posted a video yesterday with the head of the jewish settlement project and she said that she worked with Ariel Sharon to :" to strategically put the settlements to make sure that there will NEVER be a Palestinian state".


Netanyahu has now explicitly rejected the two-state solution, and the space for political debate in Israel and the occupied territories has .
Source: http://www.washingtonpost.com/posteverything/wp/2014/07/21/the-two-state-solution-r-i-p/

The 2 states resolution calls for "two States, Israel and Palestine ... side by side within secure and recognized borders" together with "a just resolution of the refugee question in conformity with UN resolution 194". The borders of the state of Palestine are "based on the pre-1967 borders". The latest resolution in November 2013 was passed 165 to 6, with 6 abstentions.[2] The countries voting against were Canada, Israel, Federated States of Micronesia, Marshall Islands, Palau and the United States.[3]

On 29 November 2012, the UN General Assembly voted by 138 to 9, with 46 abstentions to recognize Palestine as a "non-member observer state". On the following day, Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu announced the building of 3,000 new homes on land to the east of East Jerusalem, in an area referred to as "E-1".[22] The move was immediately criticized by several countries, including the United States, with Israeli ambassadors being personally called for meetings with government representatives in the UK, France and Germany, among others. Israel's decision to build the homes was described by the Obama administration as "counterproductive", while Australia said that the building plans "threaten the viability of a two-state solution". This is because they claim the proposed E-1 settlement would physically split the lands under the control of the Palestinian National Authority in two, as the extent of the PNA's authority does not extend all the way to the River Jordan and the Dead Sea

[Anonymous]

Netanyahu is a war criminal. He should be captured, tried, and put away. There is no fate too cruel for him at this point.

Israel is an ultra-violent, paranoid state now hated around the world and considered a total nuisance on the world scene.

Misleading analogies about DC real estate are not going to change that. Any Israeli Jew with a lick of sense ought to have a back-up plan in the US or Canada.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:Hamas justifies attackes on unarmed israelis. Jeff Steele, the owner of the forum talks about how he understands how one could get pushed to the point of firing rockets.

I would like the following to happen:

1) The Gaza Government to recognize Israel's right to exist (Hamas wants Israel out).

2) Israel end the blockade of Gaza. Israel can not do that until the flow of weapons stop.

3) The people of Gaza and the west bank have a homeland. It can be the same homeland, or it could be two separate countries...that is for them to decide.

4) Israel plan for the withdrawal of settlements from the west bank

However, none of this can happen when rockets are being indiscriminately into Israel.

To date, Israel has fought all attempts to have a contiguous Palestinian state with any degree of sovereignty. Look at the maps and see how much the settlements eat into the proposed Palestinian state land, non-stop. Settlements that are ILLEGAL.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IF you lived in CCMD and you thought that DC and CCDC "had no right to exist" and you kept lobbing rockets across Western Avenue, hitting our houses, destroying our schools etc one day we would get fed up with it and fight back. That's what is happening in Israel. Hamas does not want peace. They want to annihilate Israel.

I think in actuality Israel wants to annihilate Palestine and all of there people. It is quite apparent by their actions-had they just kept the land they initially stole/got from the UN-and peacefully co-existed with the arabs (perhaps even helping them to prosper as well) there would be peace at least in that small sliver of the middle east. Instead, feeling superior, they want to control and oppress, take over and monopolize, ans become segregated and separatists. They are greedy and self righteous, and hypocrites going against everything in their Talmud and religion.

In 1948, Israel expressed hope to live at peace with her neighbors. Her neighbors responded by attacking. Israel won, resulting in the bounty boundaries pre-1967.
Are you suggesting Israel retreat to the UN lines, or the 1967 lines?

Not pp, but Israel should have never been created. You don't go and put a new country, where people are already living. Palestinians were not the cause of the Holocaust, and I think there's a lot of misplaced expectations & responsibility placed on them. I don't support Israel. I don't support a Jewish state. I support a single, secular state where people can live cohesively, together, in a democratic setting (which Israel is not - despite it's false claims).

By that logic, America should not have been created.

Neither the US or Israel are willing to just disappear. The only option is therefore: peace.

Israel wants peace and a 2 state solution. Hamas does not want peace. Hamas is a terrorist organization demanding Israel's destruction.

We do not negotiate with terrorist leaders like Hamas' leaders; we use drone strikes to kill terrorists.

BS, Israel wants peace and calm without any inconvenience to itself, without remedying past and ongoing injustices, without giving up ANYTHING. Israel's version of peace is "why don't you all just shut up."

[Anonymous]

The youth of the world, except for the Jewish kids that the UJA can bus in from summer camps in the Poconos for a rally in midtown NYC, despise Israel. Its days are numbered.

[Anonymous]

Muslima wrote:

jsteele wrote:That's a very limited perspective. Consider this perspective instead:

The combined Washington, DC and Chevy Chase, MD used to be your homeland. Some strangers came from Ashburn and kicked you out, forcing you to live as a refugee in CCMD. For 40 years, they occupied CCMD, restricting every aspect of your life. Even when the Ashburnists withdrew from CCMD, they controlled travel to and from CCMD, controlled imports and exports, controlled customs duties and generally turned CCMD into an open air prison. Then, imagine that CCMD holds an election for town council and when a party disliked by the Ashburnists wins, a trade embargo is implemented and political leaders are arrested and killed.

You might want to fire a rocket at some point as well.

+1 people seem to forget the history of this conflict and how it all started

And Romeo and Juliet ended up dead.

There is no point to this.

[Anonymous]

Israel is creating dozens of Anne Franks in Gaza.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Farah_Gazan

Who will help them or preserve their memory when Israel completes its genocidal campaign? Israel is scum.

[Anonymous]

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:

Anonymous wrote:IF you lived in CCMD and you thought that DC and CCDC "had no right to exist" and you kept lobbing rockets across Western Avenue, hitting our houses, destroying our schools etc one day we would get fed up with it and fight back. That's what is happening in Israel. Hamas does not want peace. They want to annihilate Israel.

I think in actuality Israel wants to annihilate Palestine and all of there people. It is quite apparent by their actions-had they just kept the land they initially stole/got from the UN-and peacefully co-existed with the arabs (perhaps even helping them to prosper as well) there would be peace at least in that small sliver of the middle east. Instead, feeling superior, they want to control and oppress, take over and monopolize, ans become segregated and separatists. They are greedy and self righteous, and hypocrites going against everything in their Talmud and religion.

In 1948, Israel expressed hope to live at peace with her neighbors. Her neighbors responded by attacking. Israel won, resulting in the bounty boundaries pre-1967.
Are you suggesting Israel retreat to the UN lines, or the 1967 lines?

Not pp, but Israel should have never been created. You don't go and put a new country, where people are already living. Palestinians were not the cause of the Holocaust, and I think there's a lot of misplaced expectations & responsibility placed on them. I don't support Israel. I don't support a Jewish state. I support a single, secular state where people can live cohesively, together, in a democratic setting (which Israel is not - despite it's false claims).

By that logic, America should not have been created.

Neither the US or Israel are willing to just disappear. The only option is therefore: peace.

Israel wants peace and a 2 state solution. Hamas does not want peace. Hamas is a terrorist organization demanding Israel's destruction.

We do not negotiate with terrorist leaders like Hamas' leaders; we use drone strikes to kill terrorists.

What early US settlers did was abhorrent and wrong, and if history could be re-created, yes -- America (as we know it) should not have been created. But Israel is a different case, because it's still "fresh" - it's recent, and people who were originally impact, still exist.

Bullshiiit that Israel wants peace. Israel is a war criminal state, and as much a state guilty of state terrorism, as Hamas is terrorist organization. Both are led by corrupt, self-serving scum. Why should Hamas negotiate with a terrorist state guilty of war crimes?

You can play this tit-for-tat-who-is-worse game all you want. But at the end of the day, Israel has the royal upper hand, and Israel can create a path to peace. They are, by far, the dominant party. And the onus is on them to pave the way. But Israel does not. Israel can say it wants peace all they want, but the words and behavior do not match.